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Dr. Melba Ketchum on the radio this morning.


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#106    Night Walker

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostJeff Albertson, on 15 December 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

If no peer review can be producted she needs to be run out of the bigfoot community for claims she can't produce only after conspiracy theory come out of why there is no paper.

Trouble is that the Bigfoot community are not known for rejecting folk who make sensational Bigfoot claims whilst failing to provide supporting evidence (quite the opposite, actually). Even when it comes to fakery, only the ones that admit to it are ejected...

Posted Image Yes! Canada's most fearsome predator. The Kodiak Marmoset – it's the world's largest smallest primate. "My God! He's killing us..."

The Yowie-ocalypse is upon us...

#107    Jeff Albertson

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 10:33 PM

View PostNight Walker, on 15 December 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

Trouble is that the Bigfoot community are not known for rejecting folk who make sensational Bigfoot claims whilst failing to provide supporting evidence (quite the opposite, actually). Even when it comes to fakery, only the ones that admit to it are ejected...

So true it sad how are we ever going to prove or disprove any cryptids with known fakers are still around, all this does is make science not want to look at any evidence presented to them. Just my oppion on what should happen to people who have fake such as Tom Biscardi ect. may be one day.

We know almost exactly how many stars exist in our milkway but we have no idea of how many species living on our plant.

#108    keninsc

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:26 AM

Yes, but Jeff, the thing is we don't know what Meldrum's research looks like of if it's any good either, of course there nothing to look at because it hasn't been published yet. We don't even know if it will or won't get published or if it will stand up to peer review.

......yet, everyone wants to go ahead and make the call based on whatever they heard from whatever. The only reason I posted up the interview is because it was Meldrum herself talking about it, since it is her research, she would know best about it.

......well..........that and the lesbian thing, I thought were interesting and worthy of discussion. Then along came Butch and Sundance, doing what they do best, disrupting a thread and now it's all just silly crap now and pointless babble.


#109    evancj

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:51 AM

We don't even know if there is a paper.

Her own words are what is being used against her. She has changed her story, she says that bigfoot is half human, and half some unknown non primate thing. If not primate what else is there to choose from?

She claims that she has seen these animals herself, at a habituation center. If that is true she could have shut all of us skeptics up once and for all and proved her point along time ago without a paper, or all the unprofessional drama and shenanigans she seems to love.

There is nothing wrong with giving someone the benefit of the doubt if they deserve it, but giving that to her is like giving it to Bernie Madoff as you hand your life savings over to him.


#110    Sakari

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:09 AM

View Postkeninsc, on 16 December 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

Yes, but Jeff, the thing is we don't know what Meldrum's research looks like of if it's any good either, of course there nothing to look at because it hasn't been published yet. We don't even know if it will or won't get published or if it will stand up to peer review.

......yet, everyone wants to go ahead and make the call based on whatever they heard from whatever. The only reason I posted up the interview is because it was Meldrum herself talking about it, since it is her research, she would know best about it.

......well..........that and the lesbian thing, I thought were interesting and worthy of discussion. Then along came Butch and Sundance, doing what they do best, disrupting a thread and now it's all just silly crap now and pointless babble.


Can someone let kenninsc know it is not Meldrum, and Meldrum is a he.....I would let him know, but he has me on ignore.....

Meldrum = Ketchum.......

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#111    keninsc

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:35 AM

View Postevancj, on 16 December 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

We don't even know if there is a paper.

Her own words are what is being used against her. She has changed her story, she says that bigfoot is half human, and half some unknown non primate thing. If not primate what else is there to choose from?

She claims that she has seen these animals herself, at a habituation center. If that is true she could have shut all of us skeptics up once and for all and proved her point along time ago without a paper, or all the unprofessional drama and shenanigans she seems to love.

There is nothing wrong with giving someone the benefit of the doubt if they deserve it, but giving that to her is like giving it to Bernie Madoff as you hand your life savings over to him.

Hey, I'm not giving her anything, but I'd like to see if there is anything worth considering before I just blow her off. Hey, you may not like her but if her stuff pans out then that could be the validation she needs. As far as changing the story where the DNA findings were concerned, hell if this thing is actually a close relative to humans then it could be mis read or interpreted.

No, that isn't a validation by me, just wanting to see what's what or what she claims to have before I pass judgment. She could be a crazy old lezbo and if it turns out she's lying then this will be her deathnell and we can write her off as a crackpot. Hell......what's his name with the blimp,......oh dear. Ok, I've gotten my names confused Meldrum is the crackpot trying to get a blimp made and Ketchum is the crazy old dyke, sorry my bad on that. Anyway, I think Meldrum is probably a little more dubious in that he's shown to be in league with the dark and evil forces of the BFRO..........at least he was on their show.

Now, in all seriousness, I have no idea if Ketchum is on the level or not, but occasionally even a blind pig finds an acorn. However, I'd like to see the acorn before I declare she's actually found one.


#112    evancj

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:10 PM

The fact that we don't have any bigfoot  DNA (by now) to compare her findings too should be a gigantic red flag to everyone and anyone. Especially when she herself (publicly announced) has seen these animals up close and personal at a purported bigfoot habituation/hallucination site. How could the scientist she claims herself to be, not get a sample of real DNA to compare her own results too. Why even bother with all this expensive DNA testing at all if you have access to the real living breathing animal?

She has also publicly stated that if her paper is rejected by one journal she will continue to submit it until someone/anyone publishes it. So in her mind if one out of ten journals accept it then her claims will somehow be true? Please...that is not peer review that is cheery picking. She herself (in the radio interview below) says she knows someone with an open mind and will accept her paper if all the respectable journals reject it. Look for the bolded text.

Quote


http://www.oregonbig...-study_2011.php

October, 2010:

Dave Paulides and Melba Ketchum appear on Bigfoot Busters on Blogtalk Radio. (You can listen to the full episode here. What follows is a partial transcript of the most pertinent portions of that interview.)


Dr. Ketchum if there is anything that would keep the evidence from coming out, when the study is complete.

"I certainly hope not. The one thing we're trying to overkill is so that peer-review will be passed. I know that we've done everything to make it to peer-review. The peer-review will happen. Except, unless we get biased people that refuse to pass it for selfish reasons. Or, we get some type of conspiracy theory going where it's prevented. I know the science is good. We've done peer-review papers before. It's not a big deal. Two of the PhD's on our team do peer-review, for crying out loud, so we know what we've done to overkill and make sure that everything is as it should be.  So the science will pass. It's just getting past somebody who might have a preconceived notion... they can nitpick it, but they can't really nitpick it because we're covering all our bases. What it'll boil down to is just if they'll pass it from one to the next and drag it out. That's really the worst fear I have. I mean, they can't really completely turn it down.... But the first time we get turned down with any of them, we're just going to go to another one. We'll keep doing it until we get it done. We will, because it's there. And it will absolutely capable of being peer-reviewed because, like I say, I'm a veteran, and certainly the people on my team have done... you know, one of them has peer-reviewed for a government agency. And no research left that agency without the peer-review from him, so we know what we're doing here. And it's just a matter of the politics and, you know, hopefully is going to go smoothly and we'll get it out there more quickly, I hope, than what we're afraid of. But it will be [nothing but bias] if it doesn't peer-review."

Dr. Ketchum is asked if the findings will be published in a journal.

"That's peer-review, yes. It will go into a scientific journal and what each journal has, when it's a respected scientific journal is, they have some scientists on staff that read the papers and they go, 'Did they do this right? Did they take enough precautions?' and what have you. 'Oh yeah, they did fine. Let's publish it.' And I know we've done all those things. I'm sure of that. [laughs] I'm absolutely positive. In fact, we've done it more than any paper. We have done more than any paper I have ever read. "

Interviewer asks, "You have to, almost, don't you?"

Melba responds, "Yeah, we have to because it's the nature of the beast, if you'll pardon the pun. [laughs] But this is what I'm saying. I know what we've got is good, I know what we've got will pass the science."

Dr. Ketchum is asked if she will go "around them" if necessary.

"Well, that's what we'll do if we get any trouble out of the bigger publications, we'll go to a smaller one if we have to., until somebody slips up and is actually open-minded. And I've got the name of somebody who's open-minded with a good journal that will be our second step if the first one doesn't go through quickly. "

Dr. Ketchum is asked when she anticipates the results being released and whether she has been contact by any government officials.

"No. And I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, so I'm not really worried about that. I think if it comes out it comes out and, you know, we'll see what happens. Some people have voiced a concern about the peer-review process in this country and that's why we have multiple copies and we're ready to submit internationally to get things done how they should be done. This is just straight science. Everybody gets all excited about Bigfoot. To us, it's just science. It's another organism. You write it up, you do what you're supposed to do, and you say here it is. It's a big mystery, yes, but it's nothing that you wouldn't do every day in science."


As you can see she is setting herself up for the failure she knows is going to happen. This is the exact failure that is unfolding before us today. Dont you find it odd that she was able to predict this very senario over 2 years ago?

She claims that her science is bullet proof and will have to be accepted in one sentence, yet in the next she give us the "unless this happens scenarios" that will stop her flawless science from being validated. I especially like the;

"I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, so I'm not really worried about that"

quote, yet a few paragraphs above this she plants a conspiracy theory seed in the belevers fertal minds by saying;

The peer-review will happen. Except, unless we get biased people that refuse to pass it for selfish reasons. Or, we get some type of conspiracy theory going where it's prevented."

But don't worry bigfoot believers, and wannabe bigfoot believers, she knows someone (I'm guessing a Russian) at a second rate journal who will accept and publish her trash science as fact, thus proving once for all (to the gullible among us) that bigfoot a real animal, and that real science is bad, and not to be trusted.

"Well, that's what we'll do if we get any trouble out of the bigger publications, we'll go to a smaller one if we have to., until somebody slips up and is actually open-minded. And I've got the name of somebody who's open-minded with a good journal that will be our second step if the first one doesn't go through quickly."

All you are saying keninsc is; give pseudoscience a chance.

Edited by evancj, 16 December 2012 - 06:22 PM.


#113    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

Quote

...until somebody slips up and is actually open-minded.

Which is alot like saying "If no one else will publish my paper I'll give it to a rag-mag, they'll publish anything". :rolleyes:  This is not the kind of outlook that should be taken seriously IMO.

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#114    QuiteContrary

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

They win either way. In their own minds.

I wonder if she types up her reports on strawberry-scented paper.


#115    Night Walker

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:20 AM

View PostJeff Albertson, on 15 December 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

So true it sad how are we ever going to prove or disprove any cryptids with known fakers are still around, all this does is make science not want to look at any evidence presented to them. Just my oppion on what should happen to people who have fake such as Tom Biscardi ect. may be one day.

Fakery has always been around and is a vital part of the Bigfoot phenomenon both now and historically. It seems to be part of our human nature to do so. Have you never told a fanciful story as true or played a prank? What is your opinion of what should happen to fakers? What about those who (mistakenly or deliberately) promote fakes as real? What about storytellers?

Without fakers, showmen, and storytellers would there even be a Bigfoot phenomenon?

I say - MORE fakery! MORE showmanship! MORE storytelling! Is it not far more interesting to discuss and observe Ketchum's DNA circus than that of Sykes?

Posted Image Yes! Canada's most fearsome predator. The Kodiak Marmoset – it's the world's largest smallest primate. "My God! He's killing us..."

The Yowie-ocalypse is upon us...

#116    QuiteContrary

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:23 AM

View PostNight Walker, on 17 December 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

Fakery has always been around and is a vital part of the Bigfoot phenomenon both now and historically. It seems to be part of our human nature to do so. Have you never told a fanciful story as true or played a prank? What is your opinion of what should happen to fakers? What about those who (mistakenly or deliberately) promote fakes as real? What about storytellers?

Without fakers, showmen, and storytellers would there even be a Bigfoot phenomenon?

I say - MORE fakery! MORE showmanship! MORE storytelling! Is it not far more interesting to discuss and observe Ketchum's DNA circus than that of Sykes?

The serious searchers/believers hate the fakers and hoaxers and storytellers.

However, I do love the really good stories, which I don't believe for a minute involve a bigfoot.

But I can see them as stories like any movie or book, not accounts of a scientifically viable animal roaming our nation that has left us evidence!

Edited by QuiteContrary, 17 December 2012 - 12:29 AM.


#117    Night Walker

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:25 AM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 17 December 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

The serious searchers/believers hate the fakers and hoaxers and storytellers.

Who are the "serious searchers/believers" of Bigfoot? Plenty claim to be serious about Bigfoot but their own results suggest otherwise...

Posted Image Yes! Canada's most fearsome predator. The Kodiak Marmoset – it's the world's largest smallest primate. "My God! He's killing us..."

The Yowie-ocalypse is upon us...

#118    Sakari

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:28 AM

View PostNight Walker, on 17 December 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

Who are the "serious searchers/believers" of Bigfoot? Plenty claim to be serious about Bigfoot but their own results suggest otherwise...


They are friends with the " serious paranormal investigators ".......They hang out at Starbucks on wed's evenings.

Edited by Sakari, 17 December 2012 - 02:28 AM.

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#119    QuiteContrary

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:19 AM

View PostNight Walker, on 17 December 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

Who are the "serious searchers/believers" of Bigfoot? Plenty claim to be serious about Bigfoot but their own results suggest otherwise...

I started out on believer forums. I met many who liked to go out in the woods "looking" for sign or an encounter. Several were outdoors people to begin with. And some of these had had their own encounter they couldn't explain. They are honest Joes or Janes investigating something they haven't made a decision about yet, or are trying to come to terms with their own encounter or that of a friend, etc.

They had no shortage of anger towards the profiteers and busted hoaxers and even toward those who took what they believed to be real, natural law abiding animal, and make it into an alien or shapeshifting or disappearing or natural law breaking "supernatural" creature.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 17 December 2012 - 03:20 AM.


#120    Night Walker

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:19 AM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 17 December 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

I started out on believer forums. I met many who liked to go out in the woods "looking" for sign or an encounter. Several were outdoors people to begin with. And some of these had had their own encounter they couldn't explain. They are honest Joes or Janes investigating something they haven't made a decision about yet, or are trying to come to terms with their own encounter or that of a friend, etc.

They had no shortage of anger towards the profiteers and busted hoaxers and even toward those who took what they believed to be real, natural law abiding animal, and make it into an alien or shapeshifting or disappearing or natural law breaking "supernatural" creature.

Where are they now? Are they actually doing anything to bring such shenanigans to light other than raging about it anonymously on an internet forum? I've heard of punch-ups in car parks outside of Bigfoot Conventions between American Apers and Supernatural Bigfooters such is the depth of conviction. Yet both sides have traditionally engaged in fakery and storytelling (each supporting their own pre-conceptions of what Bigfoot is) and if neither side is actually right then they are both equally ridiculous...

I do have great admiration for the individual searcher from outside the broader Bigfoot-enthusiast community and have met a few locally. However, these people are not only few and far bewteen but also have minimal impact upon the broader Bigfoot-enthusiast community largely because they are not a part of it (their stories go largely unknown). Some keep searching on their own, some give up, some become part of the broader search:

Michael D. Greene has been on the trail of Bigfoot for some 20 years. He has traveled from Bella Coola, BC to the Teslin River, Yukon Territory, to Bluff Creek, CA, to the Olympic Peninsula, WA, to the Adirondack Mountains of NY State, Florida’s Everglades and to the forests of North Carolina, where he now makes his home.

Mike has an MS in Behavioral Psychology, is a court-qualified Questioned Documents Expert and for 20 years was Chief Investigator for a State Fraud Bureau. He is a pilot and a former EMT and member of the National Ski Patrol.


http://www.bushloper.net/bio/bio.html

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable fellow. After 20 years of apparently fruitless searching, Bigfoot-researcher Mike Greene's finally captured evidence in the form of a thermal video of Bigfoot which is is endorsed by Bigfoot-researcher, Cliff Barackman of Finding Bigfoot and North American Bigfoot (NIB):



Last Spring, I was overjoyed to find out that Mike Greene, a good bigfooting friend of mine, managed to obtain video footage of a sasquatch using a thermal imager. I have also been working very hard to obtain thermal footage of a sasquatch for several years, and I was thrilled to have a good friend succeed in this tricky endeavor. I am of the mind that when any real bigfooter succeeds, we all benefit.

I met Mike several years ago on a bigfoot trip in British Columbia. We spent several nights 'squatching together and talking about past adventures. We again had the opportunity to spend a few nights in the woods together on the Olympic Peninsula a year or so later. We still communicate by email and the occasional phone call, and I consider him to be a good friend. I would gladly go on any trip or adventure with Mike, trusting him completely in both word and deed.

I have no doubts that this film shows what Mike claims.

http://www.northamer...rmal-video.html

The ones claiming "serious Bigfoot researchers" and the "fakers and hoaxers and storytellers" are often one and the same. The difference between a Bigfoot claim being considered "real" or "fake" largely depends on who you know and how people feel about it individually but that is how all folktales circulate. Friends are supportive of their friends. Friends don't rat out friends and the broader Bigfoot-enthusiast subculture is made up of smaller local/social-enthusiast groups. Would Barackman's assessment of the termal video be so Bigfoot-positive if it came from the general public or from a known rival?

Would your own assessment of "honest joes and janes" be different if they didn't appear likeable and so down-to-earth?

Posted Image Yes! Canada's most fearsome predator. The Kodiak Marmoset – it's the world's largest smallest primate. "My God! He's killing us..."

The Yowie-ocalypse is upon us...




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