Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Gay marriage 'to be illegal'

gat marriage maria miller

  • Please log in to reply
403 replies to this topic

#46    shadowhive

shadowhive

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,886 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Uk

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:40 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 12 December 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

I thought gay marriage was legal in the UK, but I guess I was mistaken. What about those who are not Christian? Why do they have to follow Christian law?  Pagans don't have an issue with gay marriage and are happy to preform rituals for same sex couples.

We had civil partnerships instead. When they were first introduced no religion could do them (even those that wished to) and it took quite awhile for the religious groups that wanted to to be able to (and even then it was harder). When the gay marriage law was first proposed it was gonna be the same sstory, just civil marriage but religious grous campaigned so now they can oopt in (unfortunately ones campaigned withn the paranoid stance they'd be forced to, which has lead to the law going overboard).

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#47    shadowhive

shadowhive

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,886 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Uk

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:46 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 12 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

The laws protecting religion read almost identically to the laws protecting gay rights.

Laws protecting religion always have limits. After all the bible and koran and others can be read in such a way that allow people to get away with all kinds of horrors. The law has to ensure that religious freedom is possible, but doesn't go so far as to let religious people have a free for all. ie the bible says it's ok to stone people, but if a group of christians got together and stoned someone to death and were found by the poolice, they couldn't cry 'the bible says I can' and get too go free.

Two main cases come to mind. The first was a catholic adoption agency. When the law changed so gay coupled could adopt they HAD to follow the new law. They weren't protected just because they wee a religious buisness.The second is the christian b and b that refused a gay couple. They were taken to court and they lost. Again, their 'religion says so' did not give them a get out clause for following the law.

The only places that get exemptions are actual churches and that's only until they provide a public service. When that happens (like with the adoption service) they have to follow the law.

Edited by shadowhive, 12 December 2012 - 05:49 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#48    Beckys_Mom

Beckys_Mom

    Sarcastic Muppet..!

  • Member
  • 51,193 posts
  • Joined:01 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ireland

  • "I hate pretentious people. I mean, what is the point in applying exorbitantly extensive vocabulary, it is just straightforwardly unnecessary".

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:51 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 12 December 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

the law says so

Prove it..go on then..Show me where the law says we must show tolerance towards any belief?


To show tolerance, means to put up with.. The law in the UK and Ireland doesn't say what we can and cannot put up with in our lives..  We do not have to tolerate anything

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 12 December 2012 - 05:52 PM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#49    Beckys_Mom

Beckys_Mom

    Sarcastic Muppet..!

  • Member
  • 51,193 posts
  • Joined:01 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ireland

  • "I hate pretentious people. I mean, what is the point in applying exorbitantly extensive vocabulary, it is just straightforwardly unnecessary".

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:54 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 12 December 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Let us be tolerant of love and not hatred... :)

I'll be honest here,  you personally are under no obligation to show me or anyone else tolerance of our beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be.   You can if you wish, but you are not under any obligation, that is my point

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#50    Hasina

Hasina

    Maximillion Hotpocket Puckershuttle

  • Member
  • 3,032 posts
  • Joined:28 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Female

  • JINKIES

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

I wonder, could a church made up of mostly gay members refuse to perform a marriage between two straight folks?

Posted Image

~MEH~


#51    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:05 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 12 December 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Prove it..go on then..Show me where the law says we must show tolerance towards any belief?

To show tolerance, means to put up with.. The law in the UK and Ireland doesn't say what we can and cannot put up with in our lives..  We do not have to tolerate anything

By tolerant I mean you arent allowed to incite violance against the followers of a religion, you arent allowed to commit acts of violance on them, you cant discriminate against them in the workplace and you have to respect their religious practises (head towels, crosses, etc).

You know that too because if you went and hit someone in a Burka or sacked them for not taking it off you'd get locked up. The same applies to Christains and gays.

You can dislike the followers of a religion all you like but the moment you try to alter or force change onto a religion you're breaking the law because they have the right to practice their faith.


#52    RockabyeBillie

RockabyeBillie

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 623 posts
  • Joined:25 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:orlando

  • And a million baneful words couldn't bring me to my knees.

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

http://rense.com/general50/cath.htm

Back when the church allowed gay marriage.

"These ceremonies had all the contemporary symbols of a marriage: a community gathered in church, a blessing of the couple before the altar, their right hands joined as at heterosexual marriages, the participation of a priest, the taking of the Eucharist, a wedding banquet afterwards. All of which are shown in contemporary drawings of the same sex union of Byzantine Emperor Basil I (867-886) and his companion John. Such homosexual unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12th/early 13th century, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (Geraldus Cambrensis) has recorded. Boswell's book, The Marriage of Likeness: Same Sex Unions in Pre- Modern Europe, lists in detail some same sex union ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th century "Order for Solemnisation of Same Sex Union" having invoked St Serge and St Bacchus, called on God to "vouchsafe unto these thy servants [N and N] grace to love one another and to abide unhated and not a cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God and all thy saints." The ceremony concludes: "And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded." Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic "Office of Same Sex Union", uniting two men or two women, had the couple having their right hands laid on the Gospel while having a cross placed in their left hands. Having kissed the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other, after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both communion. Boswell found records of same-sex unions in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St Petersburg, in Paris, Istanbul, and in Sinai, covering a period from the 8th to the 18th centuries. Nor is he the first to make such a discovery. The Dominican Jacques Goar (1601-1653) includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek prayer books. While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, it was only from about the 14th century that anti-homosexual feelings swept western Europe. Yet same sex union ceremonies continued to take place. At St John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope's parish Church) in 1578 as many as 13 couples were "married" at Mass with the apparent co-operation of the local clergy, "taking Communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together", according to a contemporary report. "

Posted Image

Whether you think you can or whether you think you cant, you're right! -Henry Ford

#53    JGirl

JGirl

    Pajama Goddess

  • Member
  • 8,796 posts
  • Joined:23 Sep 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:British Columbia Canada

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 12 December 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

You can dislike the followers of a religion all you like but the moment you try to alter or force change onto a religion you're breaking the law because they have the right to practice their faith.
but they are free to try to force change onto society based on their own subjective religious beliefs. kind of a double standard there.

JGirl's official tune of the day - hear it here!


Posted Image.. but as for this house of cards you are building..  a butterfly fart would knock it down.


#54    Beckys_Mom

Beckys_Mom

    Sarcastic Muppet..!

  • Member
  • 51,193 posts
  • Joined:01 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ireland

  • "I hate pretentious people. I mean, what is the point in applying exorbitantly extensive vocabulary, it is just straightforwardly unnecessary".

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 12 December 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

By tolerant I mean you arent allowed to incite violance against the followers of a religion, you arent allowed to commit acts of violance on them, you cant discriminate against them in the workplace and you have to respect their religious practises (head towels, crosses, etc).

You know that too because if you went and hit someone in a Burka or sacked them for not taking it off you'd get locked up. The same applies to Christains and gays.

What is - violance ? I am pulling your leg, I know you were speaking of violence, :P

What you have described there is not intolerance, it is more extreme - Hate crimes and so forth   I am speaking about being tolerant- generally means to tolerate- to put up with

Quote

   You can dislike the followers of a religion all you like

I said nothing about the followers,  I speak of certain beliefs held....   I am opposed to so many, and I will not be as tolerant  ( the non criminal kind )  of them... I can be opposed and say why I cannot tolerate any belief..

If someone said to me - You must join us in a protest agonist gay pride in the streets, I will tell them -  I am not interested, I have nothing against gays, so kindly take a hike..  I am within my rights to do so :D

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 12 December 2012 - 07:08 PM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#55    Liquid Gardens

Liquid Gardens

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,485 posts
  • Joined:23 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Male

  • "Or is it just remains of vibrations from echoes long ago"

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:03 PM

View PostHasina, on 12 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I wonder, could a church made up of mostly gay members refuse to perform a marriage between two straight folks?

Absolutely, just as churches, in the US at least, can refuse to marry two gay people or an interracial couple or two people with bad breath (from a legal sense, that particular denomination's leaders may have their own rules concerning this).  I'm not positive on the details, but I believe the 'marriage' that occurs in churches is strictly ceremonial and doesn't have any necessary legal standing, nor is any church or reverend under any legal obligation to marry anyone.  It is the submission and approval of a marriage certificate I believe with the government that makes you married in the legal sense.  Which is all that the vast majority of gay people are asking for, the legal recognition of the marriage, not religious recognition.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman

#56    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:24 PM

View PostJGirl, on 12 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

but they are free to try to force change onto society based on their own subjective religious beliefs. kind of a double standard there.

They are not allowed to violate the equalities act and they dont.


#57    Cassea

Cassea

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,064 posts
  • Joined:20 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Female

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:34 PM

Churches themselves should decide what they want to do.  It's not a civil issue.

Understanding Traumatic Brain Injury communication issues.   http://www.asha.org/.../#comm_problems

#58    GreenmansGod

GreenmansGod

    Bio-Electric sentient being.

  • Member
  • 9,269 posts
  • Joined:23 Jun 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Hurricane State

  • May the laughter ye give today return to thee 3 fold.

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 12 December 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

They are not allowed to violate the equalities act and they dont.

And yet what we are discussing right now discriminates a segment of the population because the Abrahamic religions have a prohibition of who they can marry and share their life with.  That means benefits married people have they can't get, at least here in the States. I don't know how that works in the UK.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#59    shadowhive

shadowhive

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,886 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Uk

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:07 PM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Churches themselves should decide what they want to do.  It's not a civil issue.

Same sex marriage is a civil issue since currently same sex couples can't marry. Why is that the case? In large parts because of religious meddling. Like I said, this legislation was originally just for civil marriage (nothing to do with church marriage at all) yet even though it was stated as being solely civl, religions made it their mission to try and make it stop.

Churches should be allowed to decide, but they need to be mature and let others do the same. Unfortunately all the process has shown is how immature and irelevent the church has become. Even now churches that don't want to know they won't be forced to, they STILL want the law not to go through. no one is forcing them to do a damn thing (and they've been told that from the start) yet they want to force other people to do things their way.

Edited by shadowhive, 12 December 2012 - 08:11 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#60    Cassea

Cassea

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,064 posts
  • Joined:20 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Female

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 12 December 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Same sex marriage is a civil issue since currently same sex couples can't marry. Why is that the case? In large parts because of religious meddling. Like I said, this legislation was originally just for civil marriage (nothing to do with church marriage at all) yet even though it was stated as being solely civl, religions made it their mission to try and make it stop.

Churches should be allowed to decide, but they need to be mature and let others do the same. Unfortunately all the process has shown is how immature and irelevent the church has become. Even now churches that don't want to know they won't be forced to, they STILL want the law not to go through. no one is forcing them to do a damn thing (and they've been told that from the start) yet they want to force other people to do things their way.


Your first part has nothing to do with what I said.  Churches should be allowed to decide themselves.  That is what I said.  Why do you and others.  Continually post replies to me. Arguing something I didn't say.  I'm going to ignore you from now on. It is very rude.

Understanding Traumatic Brain Injury communication issues.   http://www.asha.org/.../#comm_problems




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users