403 replies to this topic

[Beckys_Mom]

shadowhive, on 12 December 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

The legislation of equal marriage started as completely related to civil marriage, not religious. However, the church complained even then and have done so ever since to make people panic into thinking they'd be forced into doing something.

To make people panic? Being forced into doing something? I am sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say here..  Explain a little more?

[Cassea]

The church is concerned with being forced to do gay marriages in the church.  If it is legal then to refuse to perform the ceremony would also be illegal.   If a person believes that the bible says this is an abomination in the eyes of God.  The priests and pastors etc.  Will be forced by the secular world.  To do something that is considered a sin.  In the religious world. I can't imagine wanting a priest to do this.  Why would a gay person want to force a church to marry them.   Some churches see it differently.  They consider the sin a misinterpretation. Or an old outdated rule.  So those churches would welcome gay marriages.   Those more conservative churches have a right.  Not to be forced to participate in something that violates. Their relationship with God. Their relationship with God will matter more.  I don't always agree. But I can respect their right to refuse to do it. The same way a Jewish Rabbi would refuse to do it.  Or a Moslem imam.   Why do gay people only target the Christian church.   Other religions refuse it without a word said in protest.

[Cassea]

with bells on, on 12 December 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

page 4 of the sperm/blood thread from yesterday.. you repeatedly stated that i answer your silly question.. and then told me i was dishonest by not answering it.. that is considered rude where i am from..

That is another thread completely. And you did there the same thing.  Stop derailing this thread.  But what i posted there was that I could understand the concern. Nothing against homosexuality. Yet you tried to twist it.

I will not engage in that discussion here.

[shadowhive]

Beckys_Mom, on 12 December 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

To make people panic? Being forced into doing something? I am sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say here..  Explain a little more?

Alright. When the bill was first introduced it was just civil marriage, not religious at all meaning that no religions would be able to do it (even those that wished to). However the church of England and catholic church claimed they'd be taken to the court of human rights and forced to perform same sex marriages. They stated making those statements even when religious marriage wasn't being considered and did so ever since. The government, numerous times, have said point blank and no church would be forced into it. Yet the churches kept making the claim that they would (somehow, the catholic church has forgotten that it can already turn people away without fear of retribution).

At the same time more forward thinging groups argued that they wanted religious freedom to perform such marriages, which is why now there's the opt in system (which is still not good enough for the church of england/catholic church). Even now there's been an addition which makes it illegal for the church of england to perform same sex marriage (so they can't make the choice) they still complain about being forced.

it's almost as if they have some mental block, even when they get exactly what they want.

Edited by shadowhive, 12 December 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Cassea, on 12 December 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

The church is concerned with being forced to do gay marriages in the church.  If it is legal then to refuse to perform the ceremony would also be illegal.   If a person believes that the bible says this is an abomination in the eyes of God.  The priests and pastors etc.  Will be forced by the secular world.  To do something that is considered a sin.  In the religious world. I can't imagine wanting a priest to do this.  Why would a gay person want to force a church to marry them.   Some churches see it differently.  They consider the sin a misinterpretation. Or an old outdated rule.  So those churches would welcome gay marriages.   Those more conservative churches have a right.  Not to be forced to participate in something that violates. Their relationship with God. Their relationship with God will matter more.  I don't always agree. But I can respect their right to refuse to do it. The same way a Jewish Rabbi would refuse to do it.  Or a Moslem imam.   Why do gay people only target the Christian church.   Other religions refuse it without a word said in protest.

I agree with you when you said- Each church should decide for themselves, because you're right, they should

I feel if people start trying to force ways on to churches who are opposed to homosexuality  ( because its their belief ) where does the line get drawn?  

I think it is unfair to try and force any church, so that is why I agree with you on that point

Quote

      Why do gay people only target the Christian church.              

A lot of gay people I know and I happen to be related to a few, are strong Christians.. The way they see it is, they love Christ, and they will even work for their own church..so I guess they are expecting some help from their own churches

We know that there is no such thing as a sinless being, so I think that is what they push across .  "Let me deal with Jesus when I die, do not judge me "      .. As for others, I have no idea, I am only guessing  that it could be because they were raised Christian and love being Christian?  Again, that is only a guess on my part      I have a gay cousin ( Sarah ) who is a strong Christian woman, she works at her church, but, she has not mentioned any plans on getting married..I'd say if she did, she may ask her local church to help her? I dunno..

[shadowhive]

Cassea, on 12 December 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

The church is concerned with being forced to do gay marriages in the church.  If it is legal then to refuse to perform the ceremony would also be illegal.   If a person believes that the bible says this is an abomination in the eyes of God.  The priests and pastors etc.  Will be forced by the secular world.  To do something that is considered a sin.  In the religious world. I can't imagine wanting a priest to do this.  Why would a gay person want to force a church to marry them.   Some churches see it differently.  They consider the sin a misinterpretation. Or an old outdated rule.  So those churches would welcome gay marriages.   Those more conservative churches have a right.  Not to be forced to participate in something that violates. Their relationship with God. Their relationship with God will matter more.  I don't always agree. But I can respect their right to refuse to do it. The same way a Jewish Rabbi would refuse to do it.  Or a Moslem imam.   Why do gay people only target the Christian church.   Other religions refuse it without a word said in protest.

That is exactly thte sort of scaremongering that the church is doing.

It is legal for divorced couples to remarry. however the catholic church has an exemption. It doesn't have to marry divorced couples and can refuse them with no legal ramifications. Of course, the church conveiniantly forgets it has that freedom and acts like it would be forced to do things.

Let me touch on your last part Gay people are not interested in forcing the church to do anything. you know who makes the biggest deal about the church being forced to do things? The church. Which is odd, since no one wants to force them to do a thing, yet they want to force people to abide by their standards with no choice.

That's why the church is mentione, because they're the ones making the fuss and being the loudest while doing it.

Edited by shadowhive, 12 December 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[Cassea]

Beckys_Mom, on 12 December 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

I agree with you when you said- Each church should decide for themselves, because you're right, they should

I feel if people start trying to force ways on to churches who are opposed to homosexuality  ( because its their belief ) where does the line get drawn?  

I think it is unfair to try and force any church, so that is why I agree with you on that point



A lot of gay people I know and I happen to be related to a few, are strong Christians.. The way they see it is, they love Christ, and they will even work for their own church..so I guess they are expecting some help from their own churches

We know that there is no such thing as a sinless being, so I think that is what they push across .  "Let me deal with Jesus when I die, do not judge me "   .. As for others, I have no idea, I am only guessing  that it could be because they were raised Christian and love being Christian?  Again, that is only a guess on my part   I have a gay cousin ( Sarah ) who is a strong Christian woman, she works at her church, but, she has not mentioned any plans on getting married..I'd say if she did, she may ask her local church to help her? I dunno..

In the Old Testament, homosexuality is strongly spoken against. There is no misinterpretation.  It is considered an abomination in the eyes of God.  There are very few "abominations" in the Bible.  Not only that but the entire story of Soddom and Gommorah makes it very clear.  God would rather allow a woman to be forced to have sex. Than to condone homosexual sex.   I do not agree with this. But this is what it says.   Gay people ignore this and attack the church. The church has a right to protect themselves.  You can tell this is more about attacking the church. Than defending gay marriage.  If it was. Then why are they not also confronting the Jewish Rabbis who refuse the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia....ual_orientation

Edited by Cassea, 12 December 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[Cassea]

It isn't fear mongering.  If it is illegal to refuse to marry a gay couple.  The church will be forced by law.  To perform the ceremony.  Why not just go to the churches that will happily support you.  And perform the ceremony.  Why do you want to force it on conservative churches?   And if you look at the amount of times we have.  Ever seen a gay person confront the Jewish Rabbis.  How often.  I'll say never.   So really it isn't about rights.  It is about trying to force secular views. On religious observers.  Christian religious observers.

Quote

The known history of homosexuality in Judaism begins in Leviticus, which describes intercourse between male homosexuals as a capital offence. The historically prevalent view among Jews was to regard homosexual intercourse as sinful, arguing that it was forbidden by the Torah. However, this has been a subject of contention between various Jewish groups and has led to both debate and division among modern Jews.
Homosexuality in the Jewish Scriptures

The Torah is the primary source for Jewish views on homosexuality. It states that: "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a to'eva" (Leviticus 18:22).
The term to'eva is usually translated as "abomination". However, because the word is used twice in regards to homosexuality, its second use has been understood by the Talmud to be a contraction of the words to'eh hu va, meaning "He is deviating from what is [color=#9040AD !important][background=transparent !important]natural[/background]." (literally "He is wandering with it [from [color=#9040AD !important][background=transparent !important]the natural way[/background][/color] of the world]" since the [color=#9040AD !important][background=transparent !important]Hebrew word[/background][/color] to'e means "He is wandering", va "with it")[/color]
[color=#9040AD !important][background=transparent !important]According[/background][/color][color=#000000] to the rabbis, the prohibition is a part of the Noachide Laws, and thus applies to[/color]

http://www.religionf...ity/judaism.htm

[shadowhive]

Cassea, on 12 December 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

In the Old Testament, homosexuality is strongly spoken against. There is no misinterpretation.  It is considered an abomination in the eyes of God.  There are very few "abominations" in the Bible.  Not only that but the entire story of Soddom and Gommorah makes it very clear.  God would rather allow a woman to be forced to have sex. Than to condone homosexual sex.   I do not agree with this. But this is what it says.   Gay people ignore this and attack the church. The church has a right to protect themselves.  You can tell this is more about attacking the church. Than defending gay marriage.  If it was. Then why are they not also confronting the Jewish Rabbis who refuse the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia....ual_orientation

The problem with that is the old testament says a lot of things that people don't do. Homosexuality is an abomination is in the levetical laws, yet it's the only one followed! All of the others are ignored, with absolutely no problem whatsoever. I'm reliably informed that the old testament laws are been completely cancelled out, that no one has to follow them. Indeed, there's even a mention that if you want to use the levetical laws, you have to follow them all. Since no one does, they're hypocrites.

[Cassea]

shadowhive, on 12 December 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

The problem with that is the old testament says a lot of things that people don't do. Homosexuality is an abomination is in the levetical laws, yet it's the only one followed! All of the others are ignored, with absolutely no problem whatsoever. I'm reliably informed that the old testament laws are been completely cancelled out, that no one has to follow them. Indeed, there's even a mention that if you want to use the levetical laws, you have to follow them all. Since no one does, they're hypocrites.

Exactly.  Jewish Rabbis will not perform gay marriages because Jews follow the levitical laws.  You are reliably informed that the Old Testament doesn't matter as much. As far as laws go. To the Christians.  But some sects do follow the older laws.  The modern liberal church disregards them.  Some do not.  Jehovah's Witnesses for example and Baptists follow the Old Testament laws more so than others.  But.  But.  Jews do.  So if you are really pushing.  For gay marriage rights.  Why don't you ever bring up the Jewish religion. Or the Moslem religion.  Or any number of others who refuse.  Why do you go after the churches. That don't want to do it.  For religious reasons. Instead of just going to the churches. That are willing to do it.  Why are you trying to attack their faith.  If you are doing so.  Why don't you go after the Jewish faith as well?  Obviously.  It is an attack on Christians.  Not a matter of gay rights.

[shadowhive]

Cassea, on 12 December 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

It isn't fear mongering.  If it is illegal to refuse to marry a gay couple.  The church will be forced by law.  To perform the ceremony.  Why not just go to the churches that will happily support you.  And perform the ceremony.  Why do you want to force it on conservative churches?   And if you look at the amount of times we have.  Ever seen a gay person confront the Jewish Rabbis.  How often.  I'll say never.   So really it isn't about rights.  It is about trying to force secular views. On religious observers.  Christian religious observers.

http://www.religionf...ity/judaism.htm

As I mentioned. The catholic church now can refuse to marry divorced people. They are free to do so and no one can use the law against them. So the arguement that church would be forced to amrry anyone is moot.

Again I'll say something clearly. No one wants to force the church to do anything. However the church wants to force everyone to do what it wants. So the only group that want to force anything on anyone is the church, not gay people.

To sum up. The gay community wants same sex marriage. Gay people don't want to force anyone to do anything. Some religious groups want to be able to perform same sex marriage. The government is offering them an opt in system so that they can. The government has also, many times made it clear that no one will be forced to marry anyone and that they cant be taken to court (or anything else).

Is that clear?

[with bells on]

Cassea, on 12 December 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Why do gay people only target the Christian church.   Other religions refuse it without a word said in protest.

Oh Cassea, sweet darling, because its the christians who are most vocal in speaking out about it...

who are the protesters at gay parades and events??? crazy christian groups.. the Catholic Church have been controlling and dominating for centuries, this is yet another issue they will lose.. the true light will always win..

[Cassea]

shadowhive, on 12 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

As I mentioned. The catholic church now can refuse to marry divorced people. They are free to do so and no one can use the law against them. So the arguement that church would be forced to amrry anyone is moot.

Again I'll say something clearly. No one wants to force the church to do anything. However the church wants to force everyone to do what it wants. So the only group that want to force anything on anyone is the church, not gay people.

To sum up. The gay community wants same sex marriage. Gay people don't want to force anyone to do anything. Some religious groups want to be able to perform same sex marriage. The government is offering them an opt in system so that they can. The government has also, many times made it clear that no one will be forced to marry anyone and that they cant be taken to court (or anything else).

Is that clear?

Yes they do.   If you look at the title.  Constantly mixing a personal religious choice.  With a legal matter.  If you make it illegal to deny gay marriage.  You will then force churches to perform them.  Instead of just going to the churches that will.  Gay people have tried to force churches to perform them.  And now it is forced the hand of the church.  To defend itself.  And look what happened.  No one is trying to make it illegal for the church to refuse to perform a divorce.   If you don't believe in divorce.  Get married in a Catholic Church. If you do.  Don't get married there.  If a person gets married in a Catholic Church.  And then they want a divorce to get remarried.  It isn't going to happen.  They know this. They respect their right to religious views.  Even if they don't agree.  They don't try to make it illegal for the Catholic  Church to deny the divorce.  If they want to get remarried. They go to another church that accepts the divorce. They don't try to force the Catholic Church to marry them.  Gay people have tried to make it illegal for the Catholic Church to refuse to marry them.  And now they are facing the backlash of that.  Cutting off your nose to spite your face.   Why didn't you just go to the churches that were willing to do it.  The same way a woman would go to a Christian church. That was willing to perform her remarriage.

Edited by Cassea, 12 December 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[shadowhive]

Cassea, on 12 December 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Exactly.  Jewish Rabbis will not perform gay marriages because Jews follow the levitical laws.  You are reliably informed that the Old Testament doesn't matter as much. As far as laws go. To the Christians.  But some sects do follow the older laws.  The modern liberal church disregards them.  Some do not.  Jehovah's Witnesses for example and Baptists follow the Old Testament laws more so than others.  But.  But.  Jews do.  So if you are really pushing.  For gay marriage rights.  Why don't you ever bring up the Jewish religion. Or the Moslem religion.  Or any number of others who refuse.  Why do you go after the churches. That don't want to do it.  For religious reasons. Instead of just going to the churches. That are willing to do it.  Why are you trying to attack their faith.  If you are doing so.  Why don't you go after the Jewish faith as well?  Obviously.  It is an attack on Christians.  Not a matter of gay rights.

Actually out of the three main groups that have made it clear they'll opt in, one of them is a Jewish one.

The levetical laws cleaarly don't matter too much even to Jews. I don't see them stoning gay people (which iss what the levetical law calls for) nor do I see them executing jews that work on the sabbath or any other of those laws. So clearly, there is more wiggle room than you make out for them. Every group, christians, jews and muslims, picks and choices which laws to follow and which they don't. Hypocrisy comes into play when one group cristisies another because it doesn't pick and choose the same things.

Why is the church targeted? Simple. The christian church is the largest and the loudest. If the Jews or Muslims were the main group, they'd be the ones 'targeted'. I critise all religions that bring it up, but since the christian church is the biggest problem it's the main one being tackled.

Defending oneself from attacks from religious groups is always turned around. Religions always play the vicctim, even though they're quite happy to persecute and discriminate against people. Even though they're willing to be offensive or insulting. Even though they condone psychological and spiritual torture (and sometimes physical as well) against gay people. Yet somehow, they're always the victims. Why is that?

[shadowhive]

Cassea, on 12 December 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Yes they do.   If you look at the title.  Constantly mixing a personal religious choice.  With a legal matter.  If you make it illegal to deny gay marriage.  You will then force churches to perform them.  Instead of just going to the churches that will.  Gay people have tried to force churches to perform them.  And now it is forced the hand of the church.  To defend itself.  And look what happened.  No one is trying to make it illegal.  For the church to refuse to perform a divorce.   If you don't believe in divorce.  Get married in a Catholic Church. If you do.  Don't get married there.  If a person gets married in a Catholic Church.  And then they want a divorce to get remarried.  It isn't going to happen.  They know this. They respect their right to religious views.  Even if they don't agree.  They don't try to make it illegal for the Catholic  Church to deny the divorce.  If they want to get remarried. They go to another church that accepts the divorce.  They don't try to force the Catholic Church to marry them.  Gay people have tried to make it illegal for the Catholic Church to refuse to marry them.  And now they are facing the backlash of that.  Cutting off your nose to spite your face.   Why didn't you just go to the churches that were willing to do it.  The same way a woman would go to a Christian church. That was willing to perform her remarriage.

Ok. You've misread, because the propsed law is going to do the opposite of what you claim.

Ok, I'll be clear about what is being made illegal. The proposed law will make it illegal for the church of england to perform same sex marriages. Not illegal to refuse them, but illegal to do them. That law only applies to the church of england and wales.

Every other religion has the choice to opt in on same sex marriage, with no legal ramifications either way. No church that opts out of same sex marriage will be forced to do one as it will not be illegal for them.

Hope that makes things crystal clear.

I won't answer the rest, since its all down to your misconception as to whats being made illegal.

Edited by shadowhive, 12 December 2012 - 11:16 PM.