13 replies to this topic

[Kafkaesque]

https://twitter.com/dronestream

This man has been tweeting every reported US drone strike.. I've gone through every single strike he's reported, and he's only up to August 14th, 2010. So far, I've calculated the deaths of innocent civilians to be: 1,471. Give or take a few dozen.

A large majority of the deaths are children. Granted, this is still two years behind, and all of this is in Pakistan. This doesn't include Afghanistan or secret drone strikes.

[Dredimus]

Drayno, on 14 December 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

https://twitter.com/dronestream

This man has been tweeting every reported US drone strike.. I've gone through every single strike he's reported, and he's only up to August 14th, 2010. So far, I've calculated the deaths of innocent civilians to be: 1,471. Give or take a few dozen.

A large majority of the deaths are children. Granted, this is still two years behind, and all of this is in Pakistan. This doesn't include Afghanistan or secret drone strikes.

Not to be contrary, but im looking for facts.... Where do you see they were "innocent civilians"? I just read through about 40 of his post and no where does it say that any of those hit were innocent civilians... Who were the targets in these strikes, why were they targets?

[Kafkaesque]

Dredimus, on 14 December 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Not to be contrary, but im looking for facts.... Where do you see they were "innocent civilians"? I just read through about 40 of his post and no where does it say that any of those hit were innocent civilians... Who were the targets in these strikes, why were they targets?

If every person attacked has people around, there is collateral damage. For every target, children or innocent bystanders are are killed as a result. That's why I said give or take a few dozen; the dozens representing the actual targets. There is a link for every drone strike.

[OverSword]

Dredimus, on 14 December 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Not to be contrary, but im looking for facts.... Where do you see they were "innocent civilians"? I just read through about 40 of his post and no where does it say that any of those hit were innocent civilians... Who were the targets in these strikes, why were they targets?

Keep in mind, most of these people are not on a military base, they are in thier own country, often at home, probably in a small village with thier family in the same building and thier neighbors, possibly not connected in any way to military action against our invaders, in close proximity.  Now launch a missile with 200 pound of high explosive at them.  No collateral damage?  Right.

Edited by OverSword, 14 December 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Babe Ruth]

Eonwe, on 14 December 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

https://twitter.com/dronestream

This man has been tweeting every reported US drone strike.. I've gone through every single strike he's reported, and he's only up to August 14th, 2010. So far, I've calculated the deaths of innocent civilians to be: 1,471. Give or take a few dozen.

A large majority of the deaths are children. Granted, this is still two years behind, and all of this is in Pakistan. This doesn't include Afghanistan or secret drone strikes.

Well, as Dubya & Dick told us, they hate us for our freedom.

[Dredimus]

Eonwe, on 14 December 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

If every person attacked has people around, there is collateral damage. For every target, children or innocent bystanders are are killed as a result. That's why I said give or take a few dozen; the dozens representing the actual targets. There is a link for every drone strike.

Im not trying to start an arguement or debate here... but I came back to this thread and started looking at the information linked in the twitter post... this is a sampling of the first few articles that are linked right now...

Sep 12 2010 – 6 Militants (Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan) Killed in this strike, No Civilians
Sep 9 2010 – 6 Militants (Usbek Taliban Militants) No Civilian Casualties listed
Sep 8 2010 – 4 Militants (Haqqani Network) No Civilian Casualties Reported
This case was reported that 4 Civilians had been killed. However, the truth was that explosives that the militants were using to build a car bomb to be taken into Afghanistan were ignited during the raid… it tragically injured 2 people in a nearby home. Not Killed.
Sep 8 2010 -  18 Militants (Haqqani Network) No Civilian Casualties Reported
Sep 6 2010 – 5 Militants – No Civilian casualties reported.


I removed a few of the post (see bolded section) because they were the same story with different numbers. In the end it was shown that there were not 4 innocents killed and that is according to the pakistani government. From your post It seems as though you think that these strikes are uncontrolled... when in fact they are very precise. The systems used can target a house or vehicle not only completely, but in sections as well... It should also be known that American ground forces cannot go in to take out these targets with small arms because the Pakistani government will not allow it. Im not trying to defend the drone strikes... im just looking for facts. It seems that the guy posting the articles really isnt doing a whole lot of research as to WHO was hit... he is just counting drone strikes. And it should also be noted that not all of the stories linked are about US Drones (We arent the only country with them) nor are all the stories about confirmed strikes... Ive seen quite a few of them already that say it COULD have been a drone strike but was more than likely mortar rounds or RPG's fired locally.

[Paracelse]

Dredimus, on 19 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Im not trying to start an arguement or debate here... but I came back to this thread and started looking at the information linked in the twitter post... this is a sampling of the first few articles that are linked right now...

Sep 12 2010 – 6 Militants (Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan) Killed in this strike, No Civilians
Sep 9 2010 – 6 Militants (Usbek Taliban Militants) No Civilian Casualties listed
Sep 8 2010 – 4 Militants (Haqqani Network) No Civilian Casualties Reported
This case was reported that 4 Civilians had been killed. However, the truth was that explosives that the militants were using to build a car bomb to be taken into Afghanistan were ignited during the raid… it tragically injured 2 people in a nearby home. Not Killed.
Sep 8 2010 -  18 Militants (Haqqani Network) No Civilian Casualties Reported
Sep 6 2010 – 5 Militants – No Civilian casualties reported.


I removed a few of the post (see bolded section) because they were the same story with different numbers. In the end it was shown that there were not 4 innocents killed and that is according to the pakistani government. From your post It seems as though you think that these strikes are uncontrolled... when in fact they are very precise. The systems used can target a house or vehicle not only completely, but in sections as well... It should also be known that American ground forces cannot go in to take out these targets with small arms because the Pakistani government will not allow it. Im not trying to defend the drone strikes... im just looking for facts. It seems that the guy posting the articles really isnt doing a whole lot of research as to WHO was hit... he is just counting drone strikes. And it should also be noted that not all of the stories linked are about US Drones (We arent the only country with them) nor are all the stories about confirmed strikes... Ive seen quite a few of them already that say it COULD have been a drone strike but was more than likely mortar rounds or RPG's fired locally.

Do you honestly think military personnel will willfully notify the press of civilian casualties??? Just asking?

[RavenHawk]

Babe Ruth, on 18 December 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Well, as Dubya & Dick told us, they hate us for our freedom.

It wasn't that they hate us for our freedom.  They hate us for our freedom to reject the will of Allah.

[Dredimus]

Paracelse, on 19 December 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Do you honestly think military personnel will willfully notify the press of civilian casualties??? Just asking?

The sources of most of these articles isnt American Press. Actually, A Majority of them come from Pakistani Press and "insiders"

[Babe Ruth]

RavenHawk, on 19 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

It wasn't that they hate us for our freedom.  They hate us for our freedom to reject the will of Allah.

I know several muslims, but they don't hate me.  'course I'm not a christian, so maybe that's why?

Maybe you've been conditioned to perceive that hatred when it really doesn't exists, or exists because we bomb the _______out of their country?

[RavenHawk]

Babe Ruth, on 19 December 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I know several muslims, but they don't hate me.  'course I'm not a christian, so maybe that's why?

On a personal basis, I think Muslims are just as hospitable as anyone else.  I think most Muslims in this country are just like most Christians.  Their faith is personal and they don’t follow it literally and force it upon anyone else.  I’ve known several Muslims like that.  I’ve also known Muslins that I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw one.  The problem is with those 10% bent on world domination and they use Islamic doctrine to manipulate the Moderates.

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Maybe you've been conditioned to perceive that hatred when it really doesn't exists, or exists because we bomb the _______out of their country?

Maybe I’ve been conditioned by history and track record.  The hatred is real.  It exists and it is throughout the Quran.  And as I just mentioned in another post on another forum, the words of Ambassador Adja to Thomas Jefferson is the proof needed.  Bin Laden’s letter to America adds to that and there is a fairly recent press conference by Sheikh Gomaa that continues the deceit.

[Babe Ruth]

RavenHawk, on 19 December 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

On a personal basis, I think Muslims are just as hospitable as anyone else.  I think most Muslims in this country are just like most Christians.  Their faith is personal and they don't follow it literally and force it upon anyone else.  I've known several Muslims like that.  I've also known Muslins that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw one.  The problem is with those 10% bent on world domination and they use Islamic doctrine to manipulate the Moderates.


Maybe I've been conditioned by history and track record.  The hatred is real.  It exists and it is throughout the Quran.  And as I just mentioned in another post on another forum, the words of Ambassador Adja to Thomas Jefferson is the proof needed.  Bin Laden's letter to America adds to that and there is a fairly recent press conference by Sheikh Gomaa that continues the deceit.

Do you know of another religious sect that views others as swine, or the equivalent?  That considers murder to apply only to the killing of members of their group?  That considers the killing of others outside the group NOT to be murder?

Yeah, that's why I no longer practice organized religion.

But the fact remains that by bombing the muslim world into the stone age, and killing their youngsters as they sleep in bed, we very much live up to the reputation of Assassin of the World.  I'm ashamed of it, just for the record, but I'm not into denying reality.

[RavenHawk]

Babe Ruth, on 20 December 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Do you know of another religious sect that views others as swine, or the equivalent?  That considers murder to apply only to the killing of members of their group?  That considers the killing of others outside the group NOT to be murder?

That’s a very complicated question with an equally complicated answer.  I think it would need its own thread.  In general, you can single out just about any religion to fit that description.  But what you have to look at is what does the core of a religion say and how does man interpret it?  This is why you have extremes in any religion.  The core of say the Christian religion is to love one another and make disciples of all nations.  Now man has taken that to mean a variety of things.  Charlemagne used it to unite Europe by the sword.  Now, for that period and that situation, I can’t say that that wasn’t the right thing to do.  And equally, I can’t say that the way Islam spread by the sword throughout the Middle East wasn’t the right thing to do.  What I see as the core of Christianity is reflected in the movie “The Flowers of Saint Francis”.  The core of Islam is best represented by the words of Adja.  It is Christ that really makes the difference between Christianity and any other religion.  But would you not agree that Buddhism is the most peaceful religion on the planet?  Well, when a Buddhist wishes to leave and convert to another religion, the lama will bless them.  If the person wants to become Muslim, the lama will refuse to give a blessing.  I think that is saying something very important.

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Yeah, that's why I no longer practice organized religion.

I’m not a big fan of organized religion either.  I was raised Protestant but it didn’t take much to realize that even the Protestant mindset is heavily influenced by 1700 years of Catholicism.  I simply believe in GOD and Jesus as my Lord and Savior.  I don’t take the Bible literally.  I am Pretty much a heretic and a cross between a Deist and a Gnostic.  That’s the best way I can describe it.  And because of that, I view other religions as just other forms of the same original religion.  I.E. you have the original religion and Judaism and Hinduism branched off of that and then all the others are offshoots of one or the other.  There are exceptions but to me, they are all the same, only divergent in the way in which man interprets them.  And this is where I think that Islam has remained the most violent of all of them.

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But the fact remains that by bombing the muslim world into the stone age, and killing their youngsters as they sleep in bed, we very much live up to the reputation of Assassin of the World.  I'm ashamed of it, just for the record, but I'm not into denying reality.

I don’t think we just go out and bomb kids in their beds.  I know we react to acts of war against us and respond in kind.  The deaths of innocents are on the hands of those that attacked us.  This is black and white.  Again, I have to refer back to the words of Adja as he states that because we had refused to accept the will of Allah, then we are targeted for war.  That is reality and I’m not ashamed of it.  It’s sad and tragic but it’s reality.

[Babe Ruth]

I cannot say you are wrong Raven, but I know from other details that the GWOT is a hoax on the american people.

That much is certain.