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How do we stop it.


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#16    QuiteContrary

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:45 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2...article_sidebar

Interesting timeline.

What happened to us in the 70's when this escalated dramatically up to present day  Connecticut?

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#17    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:51 AM

View Posts33ker, on 16 December 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

ban video games but not guns? lmfao at that, violent games do not make killers. If that were the case
there would be alot more teenagers running around killing people because COD,Grand theft auto and
Assasain Greed  are part of all gamers collections.Millions of these games have been sold and continue to be
and so do guns. Which really do  youtkink would have more impact, banning games or guns?
That's just the point. There ARE a lot more teenagers and young adults doing just this. Sure out if 300 million people it's a fairly low occurrence  put it is increasing.

A hypothetical experiment. Take a large group of teenage boys. 1 group sit them down train them on weapons. Teach them how to respect the weapon, use it properly, and be educated. The other group sit them down in front of grand theft auto and let them chop hookers up with macheties all they want. Now give them all access to guns. Which ones will you not turn your back on?

Mabey create a third group that did both... Yikes!!!

My kids will be in the 1st group.

Edited by Seeker79, 16 December 2012 - 11:02 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#18    Jessica Christ

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:48 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

I want to open a discussion about the violence against children at school in America. it is promted with recent events but it's not just one event it's many.

I propose

1) We identify autistic spectrum, sensitive, and vulnerable kids early on and give them incredible support against bullying and self esteem issues.

We also need to screen for bullies to also give them the support they need.

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

2) we stop sensationalizing these incidents. No media coverage, no talk shows, movies, or books. The name of the perpetrator should never be mentioned, and his life should never be scrutinized.

The media should have policies to not identifiy killers but the need for society to have something tangible to blame is greater.

I agree with your view but know this won't happen.

The information should be allowed for educational purposes, university level, but it should not be made into media products for mass consumption.

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

3) We need to end the production of "games" that glorify violence. Grand theft auto...... Really?. The majority of these crimes are committed by young people between the ages of 16--26, most of them were heavy into video games. I'm not against gameing totally, but these games are incredibly rediculouse and fuel violant fantasies while isolating the child from interaction with others. Not to mention there are child psychologists and formulas designed to addict young people.

Show me the science.

If video games can be linked, then assemble a panel of experts to best decide what type of programs are needed, then tax these video games to allow for the recommended programs to be put into place.

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

4) I deplore gun control. I feel everyone should have a right to own own them. But, I would not mind makeing gun ownership a long and tedious process. Im workIng on my concealed weapons permit, and after Friday my wife will be joining me. There is a lengthy course and several interviews. I will never vote for anything limiting citizens to own guns, but I would vote for an elevated level of awareness and training. It should be an honer and hard won prize to be an owner of dangerous weapons. Sure criminals will just get them illegally. I understand that. It would be up to the citizen to take the process seriously and do it if they take self defense with weapons seriously.

Show me the science, again. If the current attitude toward and availability of guns are proven to have a connection to the rise of mass shootings then the latter needs to be regulated as well, taxes could go back into programs to change the attitude.

Better mental health screening should be required for CHLs; etc.

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

5) It should be a felony if Somone who has not gone through the above sugestion has access to your weapons and comits a crime.

The focus should be less on punishing people. Provision of information should register higher on our list of concerns. One is reactive, the other proactive.

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

just some suggestions. My number 2 suggestion is the most important one. The media should not be able to sensationalize this. I don't know how to do that without censorship which is a slippery slope, but the media could come together and all agree, law enforcement could take vows of silence and teach survivors why they must be quite..... I don't know. But make no mistake, these incidents have become a sick fad.

What do you think?

I agree, the sensationalism needs to end. People are also more interested in pushing their own agenda (if they support gun control they are now using this as a platform to bullhorn their ideas; or a time to show how sad they are and announce it to the world, please everyone is suffering this isn't about you and your chance to promote your cynicism of humanity instead of solutions so bravo for this thread that actually attempts to think about solutions) than actually respecting the victims in either case.

Edited by I believe you, 16 December 2012 - 11:59 AM.


#19    Jessica Christ

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:49 AM



Edited by I believe you, 16 December 2012 - 11:59 AM.


#20    lightly

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 12:47 PM

Hard to stop people killing one another when killing one another is played out in games and watched  on screens as entertainment and taught to our children as a virtue ....when it's done for the "right"  reasons.   It goes back to us being hunters for survival and keeping animals for food , i suppose?   ...we still keep animals for slaughter... we just pay others to do it for us now.

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#21    Kazahel

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:33 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

It's a fantasy to think that if Somone who wants to cause carnage won't figure out some other way to do it. Most of the perpetrators are highly intelligent. It's only a hop skip and a jump on the Internet to make IEDs. Not to mention a simple knife or even a baseball bat. A teenager with a knife can do quite a bit of damage, yet we don't see bloody attacks on children from teenagers with knives across the globe.  No, the availability of guns is a very small problem. If someone smart wants to find them, they will, or they will improvise. There is something wrong with culture here. The games are not as docile as people think. They are not the same kind of games they were 20 years ago. I expected resistance to that idea... But we have to look at hard facts here.  A common thread between all of the perpetrators is their age and I'd bet a million dollars all of them spent a lot of time gaming.

I think its fantasy to think someone can cause the same amount of damage using a knife or baseball bat. We dont see them using baseball bats or knives to take as many lives that were lost the other day because they are using what is made for killing. These guns are made for killing people. Bats and knives are not.

In regards to the games.. they are pretty much the same as they were 20 years ago. Doom was realised in 1993 and Wolfenstein 3d was just before that(1992), then Quake came out and its kinda gone from there. The only real difference over time are the graphics. Before first person shooters(decent 3d ones) we had games like Commando on the C64 etc.. So the game play hasnt changed much over time but the graphics have. And before video games kids played cops and robbers with toy guns.

Anyway saying that you would bet all of them play video games and to look at the facts.. fact is millions play these games and dont do these types of crimes. Another fact is.. when they do... they use guns... And a fact in this latest case(as far as I've read anyway)is that this latest kid was trained in the use of firearms. His mother had a collection of firearms and he was trained in how to use them.


View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

About online interaction. This is not scializing inn a healthy way. have your heard the way kids interact on these things. "Aaakkkk shoot him in ****in balls...shoot him in the ******* balls.....yeah!!! yes then rape his sister. " just one line that sticks in my head while playing ghost recon myself 7 or 8 years ago.

I've been playing online games since they pretty much began and I know well how some kids act. Some do speak pretty horrible but not all of them and over time its actually been getting better. They have more rules now about abuse and racism and although some still break rules, many dont. Online interaction can be healthy but abusing people online obviously isnt. So this has been slowly getting better and I think in time it will only continue to get better as bullying online becomes more of an issue.

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

We will continue to see these things happen again. As the next generation slides into their teens and these incidents immortalized whatch out America. I suspect there are thoughts churning in some of these minds as we speak, and they are receiving plenty of training from our lovely and ever more sophisticated 1st person shooter games.

In this latest case the kid was trained to use guns by his mother..  He didnt need first person shooters and they havent said anything yet about if he played them or not(not that I'm aware of anyway). But they have spoken about his mothers guns and that she taught him. So the sophisticated training(in this case anyway)was not from first person shooters but from a parent who took him to a gun range and kept guns at home...


View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

A hypothetical experiment. Take a large group of teenage boys. 1 group sit them down train them on weapons. Teach them how to respect the weapon, use it properly, and be educated. The other group sit them down in front of grand theft auto and let them chop hookers up with macheties all they want. Now give them all access to guns. Which ones will you not turn your back on?

Mabey create a third group that did both... Yikes!!!

My kids will be in the 1st group.

I wouldnt give any of them access to guns in the first place. Why do they need them??..  And I would be more afraid of the trained ones, like this kid was.

America just has such a gun culture that this is what happens. If they arnt spree killing each other they are deaths from little kids grabbing daddies pistol and shooting their sister. Or like another little kid I remember who went to a gun show and was allowed to fire an uzi and ended up killing himself in the process.

http://www.msnbc.msn...-self-gun-show/

You guys remember that one? Still makes me sad to think of that little kid.

Edited by Kazahel, 16 December 2012 - 01:36 PM.


#22    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

View PostKazahel, on 16 December 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:



I think its fantasy to think someone can cause the same amount of damage using a knife or baseball bat. We dont see them using baseball bats or knives to take as many lives that were lost the other day because they are using what is made for killing. These guns are made for killing people. Bats and knives are not.

In regards to the games.. they are pretty much the same as they were 20 years ago. Doom was realised in 1993 and Wolfenstein 3d was just before that(1992), then Quake came out and its kinda gone from there. The only real difference over time are the graphics. Before first person shooters(decent 3d ones) we had games like Commando on the C64 etc.. So the game play hasnt changed much over time but the graphics have. And before video games kids played cops and robbers with toy guns.

Anyway saying that you would bet all of them play video games and to look at the facts.. fact is millions play these games and dont do these types of crimes. Another fact is.. when they do... they use guns... And a fact in this latest case(as far as I've read anyway)is that this latest kid was trained in the use of firearms. His mother had a collection of firearms and he was trained in how to use them.




I've been playing online games since they pretty much began and I know well how some kids act. Some do speak pretty horrible but not all of them and over time its actually been getting better. They have more rules now about abuse and racism and although some still break rules, many dont. Online interaction can be healthy but abusing people online obviously isnt. So this has been slowly getting better and I think in time it will only continue to get better as bullying online becomes more of an issue.



In this latest case the kid was trained to use guns by his mother..  He didnt need first person shooters and they havent said anything yet about if he played them or not(not that I'm aware of anyway). But they have spoken about his mothers guns and that she taught him. So the sophisticated training(in this case anyway)was not from first person shooters but from a parent who took him to a gun range and kept guns at home...




I wouldnt give any of them access to guns in the first place. Why do they need them??..  And I would be more afraid of the trained ones, like this kid was.

America just has such a gun culture that this is what happens. If they arnt spree killing each other they are deaths from little kids grabbing daddies pistol and shooting their sister. Or like another little kid I remember who went to a gun show and was allowed to fire an uzi and ended up killing himself in the process.

http://www.msnbc.msn...-self-gun-show/

You guys remember that one? Still makes me sad to think of that little kid.
All good points. By the way the last one was trained. But he also probably was on the autistic spectrum.

Accidents are accidents
Are we going to outlaw moter vehicles, swimming pools, and boating aswell? These things contribute far more to the death of children than firearms.


http://extranosalley.com/?p=36321


Just because millions of teens play violent games dosnt mean that there is not a corolation, but I would leave it up to the scientists. Millions of people own fire arms but rampages only happen now and then also. One is to many of course.

But there has to be some sort of psychological trend or culture that is at play here. As I mentioned there are other places with guns and games but these things don't seem to happen.

Any ideas anyone?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#23    Sean93

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

How about this instead, tell America to fix it's ******* laws so that not just any **** can walk around with a gun. Just because people have a licence doesn't mean they're going to be careful.

Oh and it'll never really stop either, be prepared for this to happen continuously in the future.

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#24    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostSean93, on 16 December 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

How about this instead, tell America to fix it's ******* laws so that not just any **** can walk around with a gun. Just because people have a licence doesn't mean they're going to be careful.

Oh and it'll never really stop either, be prepared for this to happen continuously in the future.
It's highly illegal to walk around with guns in most places. There are strict laws for travel. haveing a law dosnt stop people from breaking it.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#25    Professor T

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

I want to open a discussion about the violence against children at school in America. it is promted with recent events but it's not just one event it's many.

I propose

2) we stop sensationalizing these incidents. No media coverage, no talk shows, movies, or books. The name of the perpetrator should never be mentioned, and his life should never be scrutinized.

I disagree with this one, but I'm kind of in two minds as to what you mean by this.. but I read "No media coverage" as sweeping events under the carpet and denying the public their right to know wtf is going on in their society. These kind of incidents don't need sensationalising for sure.. They are just awefull and hiddious crimes that NEED to be covered in depth and scutinised so that the Public have a better picture of these kind of events, how they unfold, why they occur.. Overall the Media Coverage NEEDS to factual.. As I'm not in america perhaps I'm missing some point here as I've not seen much coverage from american media. I kind of 1/2 agree with the talk shows, movies, books part, as this is usually just an excuse for making a profit from other peoples misery.

The name of the perpetrator should never be mentioned, (If said mentions of his identity threatens the life or wellbeing of his family) But ultimately his  life should be scrutinized in depth and in full public view so as people can learn to identify the precursers, behavioral patterns and warning signs that indicate that certain people need profesional help, support or locking up before they commit such evil acts..


#26    Purplos

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:04 PM

Perhaps parents should start being prosecuted for being bad parents.

I hate the comment that the world is much different than how it was a decade ago, whatever. I think it's a cop-out. More stress? So teach your kids and yourself how to deal with and reduce stress. More violence? Don't let your kids play GTA or whatever for 4 hours per day or watch gore *spam filter*s. More sex? Teach your kids how to respect themselves and others from the time they're a baby.

There will always be mental illness and guns or other weapons and just bad, bad people. But people have to stop blaming the government laws or school security or the media or whoever and start taking some responsibility for the world.

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#27    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

That's possible, but that has to be weighed against desentizing people to it
The same argument has been made against comic books, films, gladiator fights, golf and probably cave paintings.


#28    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:36 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 16 December 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:


The same argument has been made against comic books, films, gladiator fights, golf and probably cave paintings.
You don't think there is difference with playing a character that shoots cops, kills hookers, takes people out with baseball bats, and runs over pedestrians to say a fairly violent story or a cage fight? I would say modern games are much more engaging. People don't get addicted to cage fights or cave paintings ... Some do books.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#29    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:42 PM

When I get home, I'm going to run a couple of statistical graphs.,let's see what we can see. I'll include gun ownership, computing power of games, gameing sales, over Time and I'll plot the incidents of school shootings. As I can get to it I'll plot certain kinds of medication sales, and diagnosis of autisticm and other types of personality disorders. Mabey even include some sort of statistic on bullying. I don't know we will see. If you want to help, find the data for me from a decently reliable source and link it here. Then critique my graphes until we are all satisfied. Positive Or negative correlation  dosnt always mean actual correlation, but at least we have some data points to look at. It's been a dozen years since I used to tutor statistics and do these kind of projects, so bear with me. Mabey some of you with more technical and mathematic expertise can help.

Edited by Seeker79, 16 December 2012 - 10:46 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#30    Kazahel

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:12 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

All good points. By the way the last one was trained. But he also probably was on the autistic spectrum.

I know he was trained, I said that about four times. And just because he 'might' of been on the autistic spectrum doesnt mean this was foreseeable. What you typed above almost reads as saying that being on the autistic spectrum was likely the major factor.

Anyway so I did a very quick look around just then and found this. I dont know much about autism or the spectrum so I thought I'd have a quick read.

http://health.usnews...iolence-experts





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