902 replies to this topic

[cladking]

kmt_sesh, on 24 December 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

The kings of early Dynasty 4 possessed ample power and authority to marshall the resources for the job. Manpower was no problem. Almost all of the raw materials were readily available, and those of a more exotic nature, such as granite, could be retrieved from distant quarries.

Without knowing how the pyramids were built it is simply impossible to say that they had
more than enough power and authority to build the pyramid.  Without knowing what conditions
prevailed it's impossibe to know whether building these was like a summer picnic or mass beatings
were required to make the men slave as their wives and children starved to death.

The bottom line is there is almost no evidence whatsoever and the little bit that exists is always inter-
preted to fit an unproven and unrealistic paradigm.

[socrates.junior]

There is a fine line between being uncertain and being unreasonably uncertain. If I drop a rock, it will fall to the ground. But, I can't be sure. Maybe an eagle will fly under it and carry the rock off. Maybe my nemesis will jump out and catch the rock to foil my scheme. But is it reasonable to say, on that basis, that I don't know what happens when I drop a rock? No, it is not.

That is what you are doing, Clad. Being unreasonably uncertain.

[Likely Guy]

dreamland, on 24 December 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

1)  I got this from internet :  The Great Pyramid of Giza's location in latitude is about 29° 58′ 45.03″ N or 29.97697709832755 latitude North. The speed of light in meters per second is 299,792,458. In other words...

10,000,756.81 * 29.97697709832755 = 299,792,458.

The Great Pyramid of Giza's exterior slope angle (rise / run) is 51° 51 minutes or about 186,600 arc seconds. The speed of light in miles per second is 186,282. In other words...

1.001707089 * 186,282 = 186,600.

So here is the question:

How in the __hell did people, roughly 4,552 years ago, know about the speed of light?

interesting,huh?

2) I really dont think primitive people could build such a huge structure.Based on these informations from wikipedia:

The mass of the pyramid is estimated at 5.9 million tonnes. The volume, including an internal hillock, is roughly 2,500,000 cubic metres.^[3] Based on these estimates, building this in 20 years would involve installing approximately 800 tonnes of stone every day. Similarly, since it consists of an estimated 2.3 million blocks, completing the building in 20 years would involve moving an average of more than 12 of the blocks into place each hour, day and night....
it is impossible to do it by primitive people without using some superhuman power or knowledge.
We talking about 2.3 millions of blocks weighting few tons each that had to be cut,brink into work place and put together to create such a giant pyramid. Come on guys... its impossible.. some blocks inside the kings chamber weight as much as 60 tons each !!  i watched video of few people trying to push block of stone that weights only 3 tons and it was very hard for them to do it...so how is it posible that primitive people could lift a 60 tons block all the way up that is inside the kings chamber? the only explanation is that ancient egyptians could posses a secret knowledge how to reduce a weight of the block or even levitate them..without that..its not possible...

As far as #1: Numerical coincidence. The mile in "miles per hour" wouldn't be invented for thousands of years.

As far as #2: "The Vatican Obelisk -
At the center of the ovato tondo stands an Egyptian obelisk of red granite, 25.5 meters tall, supported on bronze lions and surmounted by the Chigi arms in bronze, in all 41 meters to the cross on its top. The obelisk was originally erected at Heliopolis by an unknown pharaoh of the Fifth dynasty of Egypt (c. 2494 BC – 2345 BC). During its history of c. 4400 years (at the start of the 2010s), the obelisk has been successfully moved 3 times."

That was from Wikipedia. Remember, it was moved 3 times successfully. It is 83 feet tall and weighed 331 tons. BY the last time it was moved written records were well in hand and make no mention of "a secret knowledge how to reduce a weight of the block or even levitate them..without that..its not possible...".

Wasn't it Archimedes who said, "Give me a lever long enough, and a fulcrum, and I could move the Earth."

Archimedes didn't invent the concept of leverage. Mechanical advantage was well known to the ancient Egyptians, as well as surveying.

Why some people denigrate the knowledge of the ancients is unknown to me.

(Not you Dreamland, just your sources.)

[dreamland]

Likely Guy, on 25 December 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

As far as #1: Numerical coincidence. The mile in "miles per hour" wouldn't be invented for thousands of years.

As far as #2: "The Vatican Obelisk -
At the center of the ovato tondo stands an Egyptian obelisk of red granite, 25.5 meters tall, supported on bronze lions and surmounted by the Chigi arms in bronze, in all 41 meters to the cross on its top. The obelisk was originally erected at Heliopolis by an unknown pharaoh of the Fifth dynasty of Egypt (c. 2494 BC – 2345 BC). During its history of c. 4400 years (at the start of the 2010s), the obelisk has been successfully moved 3 times."

That was from Wikipedia. Remember, it was moved 3 times successfully. It is 83 feet tall and weighed 331 tons. BY the last time it was moved written records were well in hand and make no mention of "a secret knowledge how to reduce a weight of the block or even levitate them..without that..its not possible...".

Wasn't it Archimedes who said, "Give me a lever long enough, and a fulcrum, and I could move the Earth."

Archimedes didn't invent the concept of leverage. Mechanical advantage was well known to the ancient Egyptians, as well as surveying.

Why some people denigrate the knowledge of the ancients is unknown to me.

(Not you Dreamland, just your sources.)

just wondering what egyptian obelisk is doing in rome...why was it made in egypt and transported all the way to rome?
I found this very interesting picture :
http://www.lindahall...n_obelisk.shtml maybe this explaines how egyptians build pyramids....this reminds me of the picture of edward working on his coral castle seeing here : http://www.unsolvedr...stle-tripod.jpg
He said: "I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids, and have found out how the Egyptians and the ancient builders in Peru, Yucatan, and Asia, with only primitive tools, raised and set in place blocks of stone weighing many tons!"
I found this interesting video on youtube of guy claiming he knows the secret...but all his informations are based on numbers and coral castle... just watch and see for yourself
https://www.youtube....h?v=E8BZ3VhX3YI

Edited by dreamland, 25 December 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[brainiac]

On building the pyramids - When I was still young I am fond of playing dominoes, now these pieces of domino plastic blocks I sometimes assembled it forming together to form a small structure, but I cannot make it high the way I want it, a square form of structure will fail and lose its balence when already high, so I always comes up to form it like a pyramid shape this way i can build a higher structure because it is more steady. Come to think about it, I have a small brain then but I came up to that solution. Now on building a true pyramid why everybody is making it complicated even scientist I don't know are they real scientist? If you have a 2 ton of stone block and you have a 100 person to pull it up I think it still easy, 100 times 55 kilos each is more power to pull the stone up, maybe only 50 person can even do it.
I am brainiac, Einstein said Everything should be made simple as much as possible.

[cladking]

socrates.junior, on 25 December 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

There is a fine line between being uncertain and being unreasonably uncertain. If I drop a rock, it will fall to the ground. But, I can't be sure. Maybe an eagle will fly under it and carry the rock off. Maybe my nemesis will jump out and catch the rock to foil my scheme. But is it reasonable to say, on that basis, that I don't know what happens when I drop a rock? No, it is not.

That is what you are doing, Clad. Being unreasonably uncertain.

There must be a perfectly logical reason that no one claims to know how they were built.

There must be a logical reason no one can show evidence of ramps.

There must be a logical reason that ramps can be debunked.

There must be a logical reason they built five steps.

This concept that they must have used ramps is so intimately interwoven with Egyptological
beliefs that it can't be extracted.  This is not reasonable.  Every argument against "fringe" ideas
always comes back to "cultural context" which is extremely this and strictly interpretation.  And
it comes back to ramps being the only possible means to support this so-called "context".  They
could only have used ramps so they must have used ramps.

Dreamland's argument that aliens must have built the pyramids is not weakened by the argu-
ment that they must have used ramps or that the pyramid must have been easy enough to build
because it exists.

I beg to differ.  While the evidence for aliens might not be great and I personally might not believe
it's powerful the fact remains it is as well evidenced as ramps.  It is nearly as strong as any "cultural
context".

[cladking]

brainiac, on 25 December 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

On building the pyramids - When I was still young I am fond of playing dominoes, now these pieces of domino plastic blocks I sometimes assembled it forming together to form a small structure, but I cannot make it high the way I want it, a square form of structure will fail and lose its balence when already high, so I always comes up to form it like a pyramid shape this way i can build a higher structure because it is more steady. Come to think about it, I have a small brain then but I came up to that solution. Now on building a true pyramid why everybody is making it complicated even scientist I don't know are they real scientist? If you have a 2 ton of stone block and you have a 100 person to pull it up I think it still easy, 100 times 55 kilos each is more power to pull the stone up, maybe only 50 person can even do it.
I am brainiac, Einstein said Everything should be made simple as much as possible.

There's such a thing as too simple.  If dragging a stone with ten men is extremely
hard then they can use thirty men to make it easy.  But these men clog up your ramp
on the way up and coming back down.  This means you'll need bigger ramps and more
ramp builders to build them.  If you make their work easy with extra  men then you have
even busier ramps and need even more ramp material.

I believe you run out of room long before you build enough ramps to do the job.

More importantly I know there's no evidence for ramps and that the word "ramp" isn't
even attested before the 5th dynasty.  It's an unworkable theory unless you can believe
they could build ramps, use them, and leave no trace of evidence in the job titles, the
culture, or on the ground.

It could be true that ramps aren't impossible but it's also true that life on other planets
might be out there and they mighrt have visited earth.  It's possible they built five step
pyramids because they had only 81' 3" ropes and had to pull the stones up the side.  This
is what the evidence actually says; the stones were pulled up the side.  Once people admit
this simple and obvious fact then I can say I don't believe that even using this efficient
means would allow enough manpower to be brought to bear.

Of course the ironic part is that since they know they must have used ramps no one will
even lookin the cave under the pyramid that might somehow contain clues to how they were
built.  dr Hawass himself announced in 1996 that there are clues to how they were built in
the Osiris Shaft so why might there be no clues in this new cave?

Can I just say, Jeesh!!

[dreamland]

"Dreamland's argument that aliens must have built the pyramid"...can you show me where i post it?

[cladking]

dreamland, on 25 December 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

"Dreamland's argument that aliens must have built the pyramid"...can you show me where i post it?

It wasn't my intent to put words in your mouth.  I should have phrased it differently.

[dreamland]

cladking, on 25 December 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

It wasn't my intent to put words in your mouth.  I should have phrased it differently.

I never said aliens build pyramids,,i only said that it is possible that egyptian builders could have a knowledge from aliens how to build pyramids..I made a lot of great statements in this topic..and most of you just ignore it.. we need to study coral castle and the man who build it to find out how pyramids were build..i am surprise that noone here talks about coral castle.

http://coralcastle.com/

Edited by dreamland, 25 December 2012 - 05:39 AM.

[brainiac]

cladking, on 25 December 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

There's such a thing as too simple.  If dragging a stone with ten men is extremely
hard then they can use thirty men to make it easy.  But these men clog up your ramp
on the way up and coming back down.  This means you'll need bigger ramps and more
ramp builders to build them.  If you make their work easy with extra  men then you have
even busier ramps and need even more ramp material.

I believe you run out of room long before you build enough ramps to do the job.

More importantly I know there's no evidence for ramps and that the word "ramp" isn't
even attested before the 5th dynasty.  It's an unworkable theory unless you can believe
they could build ramps, use them, and leave no trace of evidence in the job titles, the
culture, or on the ground.

It could be true that ramps aren't impossible but it's also true that life on other planets
might be out there and they mighrt have visited earth.  It's possible they built five step
pyramids because they had only 81' 3" ropes and had to pull the stones up the side.  This
is what the evidence actually says; the stones were pulled up the side.  Once people admit
this simple and obvious fact then I can say I don't believe that even using this efficient
means would allow enough manpower to be brought to bear.

Of course the ironic part is that since they know they must have used ramps no one will
even lookin the cave under the pyramid that might somehow contain clues to how they were
built.  dr Hawass himself announced in 1996 that there are clues to how they were built in
the Osiris Shaft so why might there be no clues in this new cave?

Can I just say, Jeesh!!

I said the idea why the pyramid was form like that is so simple. When you are there building it in actual can also be made simple manpower are already there. Pulling up little bit then stop put something to stop sliding down itmight be built within not less than 10 years, when on top is easy now because the people is on the way down you can visualize it. The rope no need to think about it of course they can make as long as they want that is common sense.

[kmt_sesh]

dreamland, on 25 December 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

just wondering what egyptian obelisk is doing in rome...why was it made in egypt and transported all the way to rome?
I found this very interesting picture :
http://www.lindahall...n_obelisk.shtml maybe this explaines how egyptians build pyramids....

Most Egyptian obelisks were transported to Rome during the period of the Roman empire. While few Roman emperors cared a whit about Egypt's culture and heritage, they were impressed by its architectural achievements. So in one sense they took the obelisks to beautify their city, but in a broader and more overt sense it was a demonstration of their power. Roman emperors could point to their purloined Egyptian obelisks and say: "Egypt was once a mighty empire, and now look: their architecture decorates my city."

The early Roman Catholic Church followed in much the same vein. They could co-opt the symbols of once-great pagan empires for their own decorative purposes, as a visual reminder of the power of the Church. Note that the great Vatican obelisk was fitted with a Christian cross on its tip before Fontana's teams erected it at the Vatican in the sixteenth century—a kind of in-your-face jab at the once-great empire of ancient pagan Egypt.

One of the periodicals to which I subscribe recently ran a detailed article on how Fontana figured out how to transport and re-erect the Vatican obelisk. I think it was Archaeology magazine but it might have been KMT. Can't recall at the moment. In any case it was a very interesting article. While some of the basic engineering principles employed by Fontana certainly would've been known in ancient Egypt, the technology of the time he lived (again, sixteenth century) was exponentially more advanced than that known in ancient Egypt. That being the case, the Egyptians figured out how to build massive pyramids and erect enormous obelisks using much simpler building and engineering techniques, which makes their achievements all the more impressive.

[brainiac]

I believe in aliens but I don't believe aliens help the people build the pyramids. For what? Is there any good reason, people say aliens are intellectual beings but what benefits the pyramids will do to them? The drawings on the stones are made by native artist that means long time ago they can see those things, what they can see they are recording it.

[DieChecker]

cladking, on 25 December 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

There must be a perfectly logical reason that no one claims to know how they were built.

There must be a logical reason no one can show evidence of ramps.

There must be a logical reason that ramps can be debunked.

There must be a logical reason they built five steps.

1) There is... it is called the scientific method with hypothosises and theorys. Almost no theory is 100% sure. If it was 100% sure, it would be a Law. Like the Law of Gravity. SInce the evidence does not support 100% certainty, GOOD scientists will tell you that they cannot be 100% sure how they built the pyramids. But they can give a educated guess based on evidence that is probably like 90% likely to be correct.

2) There is evidence of ramps. At several sites.

3) I don't think so. Ramps have the most evidence and the most basic level of technology and fit the timelines. What is Debunked is the "Debunkment of Ramps" that has no convincing evidence behind it.

4) Perhaps. Every engineer, architect and mason probably would plan these things differently on some level.

Quote

This concept that they must have used ramps is so intimately interwoven with Egyptological beliefs that it can't be extracted.  This is not reasonable.  Every argument against "fringe" ideas always comes back to "cultural context" which is extremely this and strictly interpretation.  And it comes back to ramps being the only possible means to support this so-called "context".  They could only have used ramps so they must have used ramps.

"Can't be extracted"... and rightly so. It is the best method that fits all the evidence and criteria. Therefore it is Completely and Totally... Logically... Reasonable.

Arguements against Fringe Ideas comes back to it, because Ramps fits the evidence better then any fringe idea so far. Ideas need to be compared to the existing paradym do they not?

Your arguement is something like.... A man traveled from New York to Los Angels in 3 hours. So it can be deduced that he took an airplane, since it is the most likely used technology that can do this in modern times. But then you suggest using a Matter Transporter, or a Pneumatic Super Lev Train System were used because it is idiotic to only believe that the mainstream idea is the correct one. Yet there is no evidence of matter transportation technology, or the existance of a pneumatic train system. Yet that does not prevent your speculation. Since the data supports Planes, the answer is Planes. Just as the answer is Ramps because the data says Ramps.

cladking, on 25 December 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

There's such a thing as too simple.  If dragging a stone with ten men is extremely hard then they can use thirty men to make it easy.  But these men clog up your ramp on the way up and coming back down.  This means you'll need bigger ramps and more ramp builders to build them.  If you make their work easy with extra  men then you have even busier ramps and need even more ramp material.

I believe you run out of room long before you build enough ramps to do the job.

We've been over this Ad Nauseam. 75% of the mass of the pyramid is in the lower third, so several wide generous ramps would have been possible. Your claim of it being too hard to manuever would apply only to the upper courses of stone, where all the blocks were MUCH smaller and required much fewer laborers. Plus the upper courses would have used  a spiral ramp, which would have been MUCH easier to make wider then a giant straight on ramp. Ten times easier perhaps.

Edited by DieChecker, 26 December 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[cladking]

DieChecker, on 26 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

1) There is... it is called the scientific method with hypothosises and theorys. Almost no theory is 100% sure. If it was 100% sure, it would be a Law. Like the Law of Gravity. SInce the evidence does not support 100% certainty, GOOD scientists will tell you that they cannot be 100% sure how they built the pyramids. But they can give a educated guess based on evidence that is probably like 90% likely to be correct.

2) There is evidence of ramps. At several sites.

3) I don't think so. Ramps have the most evidence and the most basic level of technology and fit the timelines. What is Debunked is the "Debunkment of Ramps" that has no convincing evidence behind it.

4) Perhaps. Every engineer, architect and mason probably would plan these things differently on some level.


"Can't be extracted"... and rightly so. It is the best method that fits all the evidence and criteria. Therefore it is Completely and Totally... Logically... Reasonable.

Arguements against Fringe Ideas comes back to it, because Ramps fits the evidence better then any fringe idea so far. Ideas need to be compared to the existing paradym do they not?

Your arguement is something like.... A man traveled from New York to Los Angels in 3 hours. So it can be deduced that he took an airplane, since it is the most likely used technology that can do this in modern times. But then you suggest using a Matter Transporter, or a Pneumatic Super Lev Train System were used because it is idiotic to only believe that the mainstream idea is the correct one. Yet there is no evidence of matter transportation technology, or the existance of a pneumatic train system. Yet that does not prevent your speculation. Since the data supports Planes, the answer is Planes. Just as the answer is Ramps because the data says Ramps.



We've been over this Ad Nauseam. 75% of the mass of the pyramid is in the lower third, so several wide generous ramps would have been possible. Your claim of it being too hard to manuever would apply only to the upper courses of stone, where all the blocks were MUCH smaller and required much fewer laborers. Plus the upper courses would have used  a spiral ramp, which would have been MUCH easier to make wider then a giant straight on ramp. Ten times easier perhaps.

Every part of the ramp debunkment has survived the exceedingly little scrutiny that it
has been paid.  I've had to modify parts of it to fit the arguments against it.  It stands.

Theconcept that ideas have to be compared to the paradigm is essentially what's wrong
with the human race.  We are quick to adopt ideas that seem to fit and entail no change
and fearful of new ideas that rewrite the paradigm or entail swee[ping changes.  At their
basis there is no science in a paradigm.  A paradigmis a model to understand some com-
plicated event or process but all such processes exist only outside of the paradigm.  Para-
digms serve the sole function of defining who belongs to the good ol' boys club and who
does not.  While they might aid in the thinking of the masses to understand something a
true scientist does not invest in the paradigm. Founding Egyptology on a paradigm, one of
whose planks is entirely irrational, was a massive error worthy of a religion but not science.

You are thinking of the facts as to how they were built as being established (a plane took
three hours...), but nothing could possibly be further from the truth.  Even that the stones
of which the pyramids are composed came from Giza is not firmly established.  we are as-
suming a big hole in the plateau with quarry marks is the source of the stone but this isn't
actually established because Egyptology is not doing any science.  Nothing is established
except the pyramids exist and Egyptology have founded a belief system on the concept
that they must have used ramps.  There is no 90% sure, there is only 99% assumption.