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Secret Caves under the Pyramids


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#631    shrooma

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 05:47 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 21 February 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

But when you've rigidly wedded yourself to confirmation bias, you tend to worry more about saving face than about accepting the inevitable.
.
I don't know enough about the subject to consider myself knowlegeable to be honest, I was merely looking at it from an engineering perspective.
the core fundament of engineering is problem solving, finding the simplest, most effective solution to achieve the desired end result. that applies just as much 5000yrs ago as it does today, and ramps, scaffolding, and plain hard graft seems to me to be the simplest solution.
by I go by evidence, and have no problem changing my stance on a subject when i'm given better evidence, even if it's totally at odds with my current viewpoint, which is the main reason i'm on this site,
to learn.

Edited by kmt_sesh, 21 February 2013 - 06:14 PM.
Fixed duplication

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#632    shrooma

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 05:53 PM

sorry about the multiple reply by the way, my phone seems to be spazzing out on me for some reason!

Edited by kmt_sesh, 21 February 2013 - 06:15 PM.
I fixed your previous post, shrooma.

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#633    Harte

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:06 PM

View Postcladking, on 21 February 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Nonsense.

I've provided this link to you more times than I can count.  I have no doubt you'll spew the same thing ad infinitum anyway;

http://www.ronaldbir...oto/plate8.html

I've also demolished that nonsense about having found a ramp a dozen times before.

And you still don't see the downward trend of that bar graph as you move left to right (bottom to top.)

Harte

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#634    kmt_sesh

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:30 PM

View Postshrooma, on 21 February 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

.
I don't know enough about the subject to consider myself knowlegeable to be honest, I was merely looking at it from an engineering perspective.
the core fundament of engineering is problem solving, finding the simplest, most effective solution to achieve the desired end result. that applies just as much 5000yrs ago as it does today, and ramps, scaffolding, and plain hard graft seems to me to be the simplest solution.
by I go by evidence, and have no problem changing my stance on a subject when i'm given better evidence, even if it's totally at odds with my current viewpoint, which is the main reason i'm on this site,
to learn.

It's certainly beneficial to understand the culture of the people who built the thing, as well as the time in which they lived and the technology available to them. Still, approaching the subject from a clinical engineering perspective is highly useful and you've already displayed your acumen in that regard. I know the archaeology and culture but am not as well versed in engineering. That's how all of us posters can complement one another.

You might be interested in a book called How the Great Pyramid Was Built. It was written by a seasoned engineer named Craig Smith. Many who've studied ancient Egypt and continue to study it are not even Egyptologists but specialists in all manner of scientific fields. Smith was granted full access to the Great Pyramid and spent years studying it. His book is the summation of how he, as an engineer, believes the monument was built based on the technologies, logistics, and industries of the Early Bronze Age.

I see you're new to UM, shrooma (and welcome, by the way), but trust me when I tell you we've been at this for years with cladking. Cladking's geyser theme involves everything from geology to linguistics, and I know he hates it when I say this, but he's been proven wrong at every turn. We've even had geologically savvy posters demonstrate how the geological environment at Giza could not support a cold water geyser. This sort of geyser is very uncommon to begin with, but of those that are known, they aren't exactly impressive.

I think you can intuitively see the sheer implausibility of the whole geyser thing. One doesn't need advanced scientific degrees to understand this. I don't tend to participate in most of the geyser discussions anymore because they haven't changed in years. Cladking argues the same points, and the rest of us continue to demonstrate the same ways in which he's wrong. Been there, done that, in other words.

Which reminds me, I'm not exactly being helpful in this thread myself. I should know better as a Mod. This discussion is not about cladking's geyser theme, nor should any of us be encouraging him. Whatever happened to the "caves" under the pyramids?

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#635    bee

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:34 PM

View Postcladking, on 21 February 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

No.  This is the nature of all ramps.  They can only access the pyramid at the point they
join the pyramid. This is virtually true by definition.

Of course in theory you can bury the entire thing under a mountain of ramp and then re-
carve the ramp to access all points but in practice it would be a nightmare.  And you still
have the pyramid hidden under a mountain of ramps.

You just can't make it work.



Probably an impossibility....you don't have to be an engineer or builder to appreciate the difficulties..

The higher the 'ramp' got, the more unstable.... and with all the weight and movement, not just the

stones but the men and equipment as well...

Can't see it myself.

(so I agree with you over the 'ramp' thing :))


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#636    bee

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:42 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 21 February 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

The point is, all of this has at least some foundation in physical, archaeological evidence: the remains of ramps, the remains of timber rollers inside ramp fill, wooden sledges, depictions on tomb walls of sledges in use, et cetera. We've spent years trying to show cladking these very basic things while at the same time trying to get him to see that the entirety of his geyser theme is not in evidence. But when you've rigidly wedded yourself to confirmation bias, you tend to worry more about saving face than about accepting the inevitable.

I know you want the thread to get back on topic but I just wanted to say that finding all of the above doesn't

automatically mean that any of those things were actually to do with building the pyramid itself.

Perhaps there were smaller items like statues etc that were originally around the pyramid in its hey day...

they would have needed a path to travel to bring them and they could have used sledges.

What I'm saying is that the evidence you have sited above is circumstantial and not conclusive...

IMO


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#637    bee

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:46 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 21 February 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Whatever happened to the "caves" under the pyramids?

Bit of a mystery....those 'caves'.... :D


#638    Harte

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:09 PM

View Postcladking, on 21 February 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

The cladding rests on the cladding below so it is impossible to set a stone without the stone below already in place.
A ramp gives you access to the pyramid only where the ramp top meets the pyramid.  If the ramp meets the pyramid on the east side you don't have access to the west side to put in cladding stones.

You do if if you place the exterior stones at the same time as the interior ones.

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#639    shrooma

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:11 PM

View Postbee, on 21 February 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:




The higher the 'ramp' got, the more unstable.... and with all the weight and movement, not just the

stones but the men and equipment as well...




.
when you build a ramp, you don't build it out of sand, you build it from more suitable material.
the rubble from the quarried stone, being plentiful, and local, would be ideal. as the ramp gets heavier, it doesn't become more unstable, it compacts, becoming more stable.
silbury hill in wiltshire is just as old as the pyramids, one quarter its size, just as steep-sided, and built entirely from piled dirt and chalk rubble, and is very stable indeed!

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#640    Harte

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:11 PM

View Postcladking, on 21 February 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

This doesn't work.  If you think about it you'll see numerous intractible problems with
this explanation.  Most notable is that a spiral ramp would completely fill this water collection
device.
It wouldn't make sense to create pools of water in the hot dry desert anyway since
evaporation rates would be extremely high and the water would get very hot.  I could go on.
You DO go on.

The above (bolded) is patently absurd.  A spiral ramp would hardly extend past the footprint of the pyramid, and then only on one side.

Edited by Harte, 21 February 2013 - 07:11 PM.

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#641    third_eye

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:11 PM

But Mr Harte, wouldn't that just make a slippery slope much more slippery ?

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#642    Harte

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:15 PM

The easier to slide the stones up!

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
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#643    TheSearcher

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:16 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 21 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

376 and 377 come from utterance 269, a censing prayer, and in full it reads -
The fire is laid, the fire shines;
The incense is laid on the fire, the incense shines.
Your perfume comes to me, O incense;
May my perfume come to you, O incense.
Your perfume comes to me, you gods;
May my perfume come to you, you gods.
May I be with you, you gods;
May you be with me, you gods.
May I live with you, you gods;
May you live with me, you gods.
I love you, you gods;
May you love me, you gods.

I put incense in bold just to emphasise that what is written about here is the smoke from incense, not a body, this is why it is a censing prayer.

And in 2053, well, it is better to read from 2051. Notice the part about embalming.....

Utterance 684, An ascension text.
This King ascended when you ascended, O Osiris; his word and his double are bound for the sky, the King's bones are iron and the King's members are the imperishable stars. If the King be caused to be embalmed, the Great One will fall before the King, for the King's mother is Nut, the King's father is Shu, the King's grandmother is Tefnet, they take the King to the sky, to the sky, on the smoke of incense. (not any burning body)

In context it makes a lot more sense actually.

View Postkmt_sesh, on 21 February 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

-SNIP-

Which reminds me, I'm not exactly being helpful in this thread myself. I should know better as a Mod. This discussion is not about cladking's geyser theme, nor should any of us be encouraging him. Whatever happened to the "caves" under the pyramids?

You know that with Clad it invariably goes back to pyramids and geysers, Kmt :whistle:
But you're not doing that bad a job, you're calling us back on topic after all, old chap :P

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#644    shrooma

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

thankyou kmt_sesh!
:-)
I can see how this kind of thing would be prone to stagnation, with both sides adopting a seige mentality that their pov is right and the rest be damned, and when you mix it with the fact that there will be very little new evidence coming to light due to the fact that it's been practically excavated to death, i'll consider this a lesson learned, climb off the merry-go-round, and go pester the cryptozoologists instead....!
.
have fun, you crazy kids!
:-)

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#645    cladking

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:43 PM

View Postshrooma, on 21 February 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

nope, can't see the carbonated water thing at all i'm afraid, at least not in the volumes and pressures required.
again, it would be a matter of heft. carbonated water, indeed heavily carbonated water as you say, just wouldn't have the weight to volume needed for the task due to its enormously reduced density.

Keep in mind that G1

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.




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