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Secret Caves under the Pyramids


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#691    Harte

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:28 PM

The usual fringe claim concerning how many blocks per hour had to have been placed in the G.P. doesn't reflect well at all on the use of a geyser.

How many blocks can one geyser spray lift?

How often do CO2 geysers "go off?"

They'd still be building the damn thing today.

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#692    samspade

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:38 PM

View Postcladking, on 26 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

It all points to using wat-
er to build the pyramids.

i created a fun theory  as you may recall.
it was about how i believe rising water  could aid in the rising of blocks during rising water table during annual flood period.

as you recall, i dont include geysers in my theory because i based it on rising waters in the annual flood nile.
i doubt egyptologists would even bother with my theory thinking it lacks evidence and
if they did, they would feel it could of only maded the egyptians a little more productive.

but that does not omit the fact it may of been done in the way i suggested.

im personally opened minded, i still dont rule out ramps .

Edited by samspade, 26 February 2013 - 07:58 PM.


#693    DieChecker

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:57 PM

Shrooma. Welcome to the Fight. Clad has been pushing pretty much the same idea for many years.

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#694    cladking

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:57 PM

View Postsamspade, on 26 February 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

i created  a fun theory as you may recall,,
it was about how i believe rising water aided in the rising of blocks during rising water table during annual flood period.

i dont include geysers in my theory because i based it on rising waters in the annual flood nile
i doubt egyptologists would even bother with my theory thinking it lacks evidence and
if they did would feel it could of only maded the egyptians a little more productive.

but that does not omit the fact it may of been done in the way i suggested.

im personally opened minded, i still dont rule out ramps .

I remember your water theory.  It could have actually been used but would have
been a tiny fraction of the total lifting that was done. Truth to tell I believe these
people were far more resourceful than modern people and almost any way that
could have been used actually was in some small part.  I don't believe they ever
wasted any effort or any opportunity.

I am not closed minded about ramps.  My estimate of their probability has varied
from about .5% to 5%.  Right now it's about 1%.  I'm far more confident that if they
used ramps that it was either switchback ramps or internal ramps.  This is based
on the actual evidence as I can determine it.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#695    cormac mac airt

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:11 PM

View PostHarte, on 26 February 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

The usual fringe claim concerning how many blocks per hour had to have been placed in the G.P. doesn't reflect well at all on the use of a geyser.

How many blocks can one geyser spray lift?

How often do CO2 geysers "go off?"

They'd still be building the damn thing today.

Harte

Based on a study performed of Crystal Geyser in Utah in 2005 it was estimated that it yielded, annually, about 12,000 tonnes of CO2. For the sake of argument, using a commensurate yield of water and taking into account the average block of the GP is 2.5 tons then we're only talking about 4800+ blocks per year. At that rate it would have taken about 520 years to build the GP. The duration of each eruption during the study was between 7 and 25 minutes with an average recharge time of about 6 hours.

https://e-reports-ex.../pdf/316304.pdf

cormac

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#696    shrooma

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:12 PM

View Postcladking, on 26 February 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:


I am not closed minded about ramps.  My estimate of their probability has varied
from about .5% to 5%.  Right now it's about 1%.
.
....but not what you'd really call 'open-minded' either....

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#697    DieChecker

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:34 PM

Well.... the Great Pyramid is about 2.5 million cubic meters. And that crunches down to about 6.2 billion kg of limestone, depending on the density of the limestone and accounting for voids between stones. And over 30 years there are 263,000 hours. So that is about 24,000 kg per hour (24 hr per day, 365 days a year.). But if we assume that the workers only worked 12 hours, and that they only worked half the year, that is around 100,000 kg per hour. And to have a counterweight that moved quickly enough, we should probably increase that to 125,000 kg/hr or 150,000 kg per hour. If crank that down to seconds it is 39 kg per second. Which is quite a lot, but this would also imply that the geyser was operational for the entire 12 hours of work. If we assume a periodic flow, we get a number that is not supported by the geography or the idea behind a cold water geyser.

And if the flow was constant, or near constant, then it is actually no longer a geyser, as a geyser must be periodic.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#698    cladking

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:36 PM

View PostHarte, on 26 February 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

How many blocks can one geyser spray lift?

They could have achieved more than 250% efficiency.  In other words for every pound of water
that sprayed to 81' 3" they could have lifted about 2.5 pounds of stones to 81' 3".  This isn't "true"
efficiency of the nature that usually appears in the calculation but recognition of the fact that the
actual evidence says that after it fell 81' 3" lifting stones that it was reused in the cliff face counter-
weights that would lift stones another 225'.  Over the course of the project when all this lifting wasn't
sufficient to current needs they could relift the same water using manual means such as a tem of
men standing on a step and pulling water up the side. There is evidence for lifting water manually.

Quote

How often do CO2 geysers "go off?"

Nobody today has ever tried to increase the height, force, or volume of water from a CO2 geyser so
we have no information whatsoever on what could be accomplished.  The PT is littered with informa-
tion about how to control geysers. There are more than 25 lines related to this topic.  They included
the addition of sugars and salts to the water to force eruptions.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#699    cladking

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:03 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 26 February 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

But if we assume that the workers only worked 12 hours, and that they only worked half the year, that is around 100,000 kg per hour.


This number looks reasonable.  I'm still working on their schedule but I believe they worked
only ten hour days (or less) for about nine months per year.  This schedule probably varied
a little over the course of the project with longer days during the middle sections when water
storage was impossible. They had ten day "weeks" with the first day (probably) given over to
equipment maintenance only.  There were numerous holidays with two weeks out of three hav-
ing at least one holiday.

100 metric tons per hour would be easily maintained with two counterweights in operation so
long as they had the ballast.  These were just the main counterweights overseen by Isis and
serket but there were additional counterweights on the cliff face to keep these supplied and
probably an auxiallary counterweight for supplies and personnel.  These maincounterweights
were loaded very rapidly with 4 to 7 stones dependent on size and unloaded even more rapid-
ly.  There is a part of the loader still visible in the middle of the east side.  This was a device
called the min that worked on the bouyancy of water to keep the "elevator" at the same level
as the men on the loading platform.  This was like the plate dispenser in a restaurant that sinks
when you add more plates to it. This is not only in evidence physically but is even mentioned
on the Palermo Stone and a few times in the PT.

This was simply a very very easy way to build.  Men sat in the shade and sipped perrier rather
than dragged stones up ramps.  This is why the cemetery is littered with titles related to water
and handling water instead of ramps and stone dragging.  This is where all the evidence, shal-
low as it may be, points;  not some of the evidence but ALL of the evidence.  And if you followed
that new ben ben stone back to its origin it would come out in one of the many caves still under
the plateau.

The fact that people are unhappy with the way I put the evidence together is irrelevant.  All that
matters is they are afraid of the facts.  They won't test the ben ben and they won';t excavate the
cave.  They won't look at the facts with an eye to rearranging them because they don't like where
they'll come up.  They refuse to even see the five step pyramid that virtually proves beyond ques-
tion that ramps were not used.  Instead they choose to see spiral ramps and their faith can't be
shaken even when the proof finally rolls in that they are not spiral ramps.  They will just imagine
that it mustta been some other sort of ramps.  They would not have used ramps to build a five step
pyramid and there will never be any evidence that they did.

All you really need to do to prove me wrong is get your heroes at Giza to do a little simple testing.
It wouldn't cost $1.50 to prove that ben ben isn't calcium carbonate.  A $200 chemical analysis of
the water in the Osiris Shaft should prove I'm wrong about geysers.  When Hawass spoke of "other
unscientific theories on the net" he was dpown in the Osiris Shaft but couldn't be bothered to test the
water.  He instead said he knows everything about the Giza Plateau.  I wish I had gone to his school
where he could just glance at the water and know the percentages of all the different chjemicals in
it or wander into a cave he said didn't exist and see right through thousands of tons of bat guano.

Maybe he really was Superman.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#700    Harte

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:05 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 February 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

Based on a study performed of Crystal Geyser in Utah in 2005 it was estimated that it yielded, annually, about 12,000 tonnes of CO2. For the sake of argument, using a commensurate yield of water and taking into account the average block of the GP is 2.5 tons then we're only talking about 4800+ blocks per year. At that rate it would have taken about 520 years to build the GP. The duration of each eruption during the study was between 7 and 25 minutes with an average recharge time of about 6 hours.

https://e-reports-ex.../pdf/316304.pdf

cormac

Only 520 years?

Well, damn then.  I guess I'll have to finally admit that I was wrong about something!

Harte

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#701    Harte

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:09 PM

View Postcladking, on 26 February 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

Nobody today has ever tried to increase the height, force, or volume of water from a CO2 geyser so
we have no information whatsoever on what could be accomplished.  The PT is littered with informa-
tion about how to control geysers. There are more than 25 lines related to this topic.  They included
the addition of sugars and salts to the water to force eruptions.

Odd that a fellow would suggest such a theory without knowng the most basic thing about fluid dynamics.

pressure = force / area.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#702    dontworryaboutit

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:20 PM

From what i have read of this topic (the first 8 or so pages and the last 3-4) i felt like i had to reply to this topic.
Over the course of those pages i watched Clad shot down evidence (the ramps inside the pyramid, showing calcultions and examples that man-power could have indeed built the pyramids). From Clads posts it seems he just doesnt want to accept or have an sort of open mindedness towards man-power being the anwser to the problem. he just shuns away from it and repeats him self "so please explain how were they built" over and over after given countless explanations. one post from the beggining of the topic interested me where he denounced scientists and all science in general comparing it to a religious preacher spreading his ideas. i thought this was quite ironic espacially how the matter in with clad responds. he himself seems to be a preacher often speaking in confusing manners, repeating the same thing over and over and not listening to other peoples claim instead quoting them and then asking the same questions that were anwsered in the quote(for example he quoted someone who had said there had be 2 explorations down into the tomb of the birds and in his post he asked why hadnt there been any)

i see his beliefs as almost a religion to him, one that he is trying to convince everyone else of while ignoring any attempt to change his mind with hard science and fact. from what i have read there has been some great evidence from some very smart people. Clad however has offered very little and often confusing evidence into this topic.

I know this will seem like a character attack but or someone how is saying they are trying to find the truth, to blantlay deny evdience and give no reason for doing so (saying the ramps on the inside would be disaproven in a few years???). i think Clad has his "truth" settled in his mind and he is just trying to spread that truth on to us

now my beleifs on the situation is coming in to the topic i was skeptical that humans could have built such a structure in such a short time. i do think that it is a possibility that aliens have visited us (to me i think this explains religious beings coming from the heavans rather than something some person dreamt up but thats for a time) and i think they may have given humans some technology (the explosion of technology after such basic life is quite extrodionary but i also understand how technology evoles expotentialy) however i am now under the beilief from the evidence in this topic, that these pyramids were built by humans. it has been shown i beilieve in this topic that it was most likely done by a combonation of skilled workers(for the more percise work) while they used slaves for pure labor. the evidence supports this. I feel you underestamate the egyptains engineering skills i mean how hard would it be to draw a triangle on a peice of paper divided up to show how many blocks would be used for each layer not overly complicated.




and one last post from clad i felt i must acknowledge was one saying why they didnt build a smaller one first before going alot of the big one. i mean come on where is the fun in that clad if your going to build some great monument you want it to be as grand as possible ofcourse your gonna go all out on this why waste 5-10 years (assuming alittle under half the height as you said 80 ft) building a "tester" when you want this great monument done in your life time doesnt make sense.

sorry for any feelings hurt or anything else caused by what one might call a character attack but i felt like he needed to be called out on some of these things.


#703    cormac mac airt

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostHarte, on 26 February 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

Only 520 years?

Well, damn then.  I guess I'll have to finally admit that I was wrong about something!

Harte

Just imagine the overtime. :lol:

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#704    kmt_sesh

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

View Postdontworryaboutit, on 26 February 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

...

now my beleifs on the situation is coming in to the topic i was skeptical that humans could have built such a structure in such a short time. i do think that it is a possibility that aliens have visited us (to me i think this explains religious beings coming from the heavans rather than something some person dreamt up but thats for a time) and i think they may have given humans some technology (the explosion of technology after such basic life is quite extrodionary but i also understand how technology evoles expotentialy) however i am now under the beilief from the evidence in this topic, that these pyramids were built by humans. it has been shown i beilieve in this topic that it was most likely done by a combonation of skilled workers(for the more percise work) while they used slaves for pure labor. the evidence supports this. I feel you underestamate the egyptains engineering skills i mean how hard would it be to draw a triangle on a peice of paper divided up to show how many blocks would be used for each layer not overly complicated.

...

LOL I was about to say welcome to UM, dontworryaboutit, but then I noticed you've already been here several months. Come on, get that post count up!

On a serious side, although I always have flatly disagreed with cladking's conclusions and view them myself as entrenched confirmation bias, I give him credit for keeping his cool in the face of steady criticism. I've rarely seen him lose his cool even in the most heated of debates, and that says something. Most other posters in such a situation give up in short order and scurry away. I've seen it happen many times at UM, but cladking's still here. What you've reviewed in this thread is practically the exact same material cladking has argued for years, and he's received the exact same counter-arguments for years, so little has changed or probably ever will.

What pleases me is how you've altered your own beliefs from alien intervention to the fact that humans built the Great Pyramid—and all other pyramids of the world, for that matter. I for one have never questioned this, but then again I for one do not believe an alien race has ever played any part in earth or human history. It runs counter to science, as I see it. As far as ancient religion is concerned, it's considerably more complex than "religious beings coming from the heavens." When you study the origins and development of world polytheistic religions, you will note that only some deities were believed to reside in the heavens. Others reside in the landscape or in the water, while still others originate from subterranean realms. Ancient peoples like the Greeks believed every stream, river, pond, lake, forest, and glade was inhabited by divine spirits. The Romans believed every doorway or portal was imbued with four different gods. This has nothing to do with aliens from outer space but was instead simply early man's attempts to understand the world around him (and above and below him).

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 February 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Just imagine the overtime. :lol:

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#705    dontworryaboutit

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:08 PM

yes kmt_sesh more of a reader than writer lol. i only post when i feel like something needs to be said. while i do give Clad props for sticking to his beiliefs. his unwillingness to accept any evidence is something else for lack of a better word. i do praise the pateince that some forum members have shown trying to explain to him there beiliefs and evidence supporting them to just be meet with the same responses over and over. as soon by my first post into the topic i dont really share there pateince. i am one of an opened mind and do accepet that different people have different views on things (personally i cant stand religion, and from what you said in your posts sounds like someone was having way to much fun eating the mushrooms back in the day lol) but if thats what people want to beilieve and what makes them happy so be im not one to try and force my views apon them.

i do enjoy reading these forums but some of the members here have some great knowledge of subjects(as shown in this topic) and i dont feel i could really add to most discussions and would probably just sounds foolish to some memebers in trying to do so. I just really couldnt stand how civil you people had acted with him (from what i read, im sure someone could have blown up with him somewhere along the 30+ pages i didnt read through) his ignorance to the info presented in some posts that he himself quoted was amazing to me and i felt like i must say something





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