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Secret Caves under the Pyramids


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#841    cladking

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 04 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

What do you call the quarry full of tafla and debris?

When you can define the terms it will constitute some sort of evidence.  I can't even find
a vague estimate of the relative amounts of wood, tafla, chips, debris, sand, desert refuse,
and other material supposedly in an unknown quantity in the main quarry.  It requires actual
scientific sampling to have any meaning at all.  There had to have been at least three or four
meters of windblown sand on it and this is never even listed as a constituent part. Until basic
scientific procedures are used we don't know.  You do realize that "tafla" is naturally occur-
ing clay right in the desert?  It's not necessarily surprising that they had some to toss in with-
out it meaning they dragged stones up ramps.

Quote

Why would construction of a step pyramid require tell tale evidence? What would such evidence look like?


Ramps would be as big a project as the pyramid.  The word "ramp" would be littered
throughout the cemeteries.  There would be gods of ramps and stone draggers.  There
would be sled builders and repairers.  None of this exists.  There is nothing in evidence
and no reason to believe they had the huge manpower available.  Remember half of
this work was women's work.  If they had used ramps less than one job in a hundred
would have been  done by women.

There were no ramps.  Ramps are a silly way to lift stones 481'.  They might be impos-
sible for lifting stones 481' but the evidence says it doesn't matter.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#842    cladking

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:09 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 04 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

Why would construction of a step pyramid require tell tale evidence? What would such evidence look like?

I bet if we could take the GP apart, we'd find that evidence. With tafla mixed with the mortor where the ramp ran up around the pyramid.

Why would evidence for ramps be on the inside unless they used unevidenced internal ramps?

If they were on the inside then why don't they show up on the scan?  Why are you married to ramps?  


Quote

Specifically an external spiral ramp.


There are horizontal and vertical lines on the pyramids and no diagonal lines.  You still can't clad a
pyramid with spiral ramps.  You can't build a pyramid under a massive pile.  You can't build a pyramid
the hard way when there is an easy way.  You can't build a pyramid with ramps and leave only evidence
for other means.

Myself, I like a switchback ramp system, as it would require only one side of the pyramid be covered, and would be able to deliver stones almost as fast as a spiral ramp.


Come on now Clad... "All" the evidence?? :no:

I'm sure eventually when the political atmosphere levels out over there, and resources become available, they will dig out those caves.

Are you one of those people that think the Dead End Hallway in the Underground Chamber is actually a water tunnel? Several guys think that the short tunnel has a false door at the end and actually leads out to the Nile.

I thought a benben stone was like a topmost point of a temple. Specifically the one temple (of the Sun?) in Heliopolis.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#843    cladking

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:22 PM

View Postcladking, on 04 March 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Myself, I like a switchback ramp system, as it would require only one side of the pyramid be covered, and would be able to deliver stones almost as fast as a spiral ramp.

If they had used ramps then they would have been switchback ramps.  They didn't use ramps.


Quote

I'm sure eventually when the political atmosphere levels out over there, and resources become available, they will dig out those caves.

I thought a benben stone was like a topmost point of a temple. Specifically the one temple (of the Sun?) in Heliopolis.

They're afraid of the pyramid.  They haven't studied it for over a quarter century and
they never will until people demand it.

There are several words conflated because the meaning changed over the millinea.  No one
really knows what the original ben ben was or know for sure exactly what it looked like.  I believe
the Pyramid Texts are clear on this subject and it was the mineral accretion that formed around
the geyser and sat on flat minerals accretions that they called the primordial mound or "the
mound of creation" just like what's in the Sphinx Temple and growing there as we speak.  The
pyramid was thought of as an extension of this mound and the toip of it was called the "benbenet"
but other terms including ben ben have been applied to it and the top of obelisks.  My understand-
ing is that "ben ben" almost means phalus phalus and my understanding of the PT is that this
stone accretion was the ka of Atum who created himself by putting his phalus in his fist thus spew-
ing out Shu (upward) and sneezing out Tefnut (downward). One of the things no one wants to admit
is that my theory fits not only the evidence but the PT that everyone else believes is mere nonsense.

People are married to ramps because admitting it would be easier to just pull the stones up changes
everything.  It could even lead to seeing ourslves as superstitiuous rather than the pyramid builders.
We'd simply rather be wrong than no the truth.  We're afraid of the truth.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#844    cladking

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:34 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 04 March 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

That made me think a little more.... What if there WAS a step pyramid, and the steps are what supported the ramp? Not the cladding as most assume? And what if the lower density on the scan is the actual remaines of the Ramp walled up behind 10 or 12 layers of blocks? This could explain why the density changes, because fill would be sitting on the step. Heaped up against the inside wall of the step. And it would explain the lack of ramp evidence on the outside of the pyramid, because it was never on the outside. And it would allow the surveyors to make the outer edges sharp because those parts of the pyramid would be going up last. Also this might explain why the Queen's chamber shafts don't go all the way to the outside. They only go to the step....

This is exactly the sort of thing we should be talking about and trying to put our heads together.

Let me point out two things that affect your contention here.  First is that the scan is looking into
the p[yramid only three meters at the top and ten meters at the bottom.  Secondly "fill" would not
be sufficiently stable to build the casing and backing stones on.  Even if there were never an earth-
quake there would be enough settling that the outside would move.

It might also be pointed out that they had a system to lift lots of 2 1/2 ton stones so why convert to
fill for the step tops.

I do agree though that these step tops were very poorly made relative the rest of the structure. It
was  more fill and more voids than elsewhere but, I believe they were still primarily large stones. This
poor quality seems to appear on Vyse's gash on the south side of G1.  The entire filled region was
damaged but at the top of the gash you can seem to see the edge of the undamaged first step.

Also, if the steps were merely to hold ramps then logically the steps should decrease in height as
you go higher because the ramps would need to keep the same angle.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#845    kmt_sesh

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:25 AM

I have discovered how the Great Pyramid was built. The boss's 10-year-old kid was at work today, and he built a model of the Great Pyramid while he was there.

So, it is now known: the Great Pyramid was built out of blue construction paper by a small boy. :D

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#846    dreamland

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:59 AM

I want to say something..we must find hidden messages left by the builders,for us to know the real truth,how they were build.I do believe, and i am sure that builders had to leave behind their secret knowledge..think about it...why there is a subterranean chamber under the pyramid...why there is a tunnel that goes under the great sphinx..and also one on top,why there is a secret notch in great pyramid.... why all of these? answer is simple..to find good place and  store their secret knowledge. We will eventaully find out where this secret knowledge is,,but only when we humans are ready for this. Take a look at this notch again.. the upper part of the pyramid is practically unknown. maybe there is some secret room,is there an entrance thru this notch? who knows..

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Edited by dreamland, 05 March 2013 - 06:02 AM.


#847    Everdred

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:14 AM

View Postdreamland, on 05 March 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

I want to say something..we must find hidden messages left by the builders,for us to know the real truth,how they were build.I do believe, and i am sure that builders had to leave behind their secret knowledge..think about it...why there is a subterranean chamber under the pyramid...why there is a tunnel that goes under the great sphinx..and also one on top,why there is a secret notch in great pyramid.... why all of these? answer is simple..to find good place and  store their secret knowledge. We will eventaully find out where this secret knowledge is,,but only when we humans are ready for this. Take a look at this notch again.. the upper part of the pyramid is practically unknown. maybe there is some secret room,is there an entrance thru this notch? who knows..

Posted Image

Why would they want to hide their knowledge?  Why would they build such massive structures to hide knowledge?  How did it benefit them to forget their own knowledge?  It seems to me the only people who benefit from this scheme are the guys selling books about it.


#848    monk 56

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:01 PM

One thing we don't want to see is a return to the 1830's when Richard Vyse blew chunks out of the pyramid with explosives in an effort to find secret passages, it makes me go cold thinking about it!

http://en.wikipedia....iam_Howard_Vyse

Don't think it couldn't happen again if an awful civil war broke out in Egypt and the rule of law broke down, grave robbers are ever watchful of political instability!


#849    cladking

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:50 PM

View PostEverdred, on 05 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Why would they want to hide their knowledge?  Why would they build such massive structures to hide knowledge?  How did it benefit them to forget their own knowledge?  It seems to me the only people who benefit from this scheme are the guys selling books about it.

The point people miss is that the knowledge was lost.  We have no clue how they developed
their abilities and techniques.  But the most dramatic loss of knowledge is in the loss of the ancient
oral traditions.  Everywhere the first things written down would be the lore handed father to son verbatim
about history, math, and science.  It's all lost. It's all completely and utterly gone.  No books survive from
before 2000 BC other than the incomprehensible and these are exceedingly few in number.  Where is the
ancient knowledge and why is it preferentially missing from the record?  Some have wisely observed that
humans are a species with amnesia.  We remember nothing of how agriculture or anything came to be. Ev-
en more obvious things like the invention of cities are left to speculation.

You say "why would they hide it" but maybe they were trying to protect it.  If so then they would have left a
trail of bread crumbs so we could find it when we were ready.  This will sound absurd to most but consider
that until aviation it wasn't even generally known the Great Pyramid is eight sided.  Maybe this is one of the
clues that will tell us how to access the knowledge.

This isn't to say I necessarily believe that the ancients knew or could predict all the changes coming to the
world over the millinea but many of these were highly predictable.  Once something's nature is understood
many predictions flow from it.  I would imagine they had a pretty good understanding of human nature and
that they could imagine our future pretty well even if the specifics and order were more opaque.  We're nev-
er going to understand the ancients by counting the number of angels that can dance about a pin. We need
data.

Maybe when we put all this data together we'll understand the ancients so well that we don't even need a "hall
of records" (which, incidentally, I believe probably does exist).

Of course the hall of records would see the history of mankind from an Egyptian perspective but I have no
problem with this. They were the greatest civilization on earth for a very long time so it seems only right that
our perspective would have an Egyptian flavor.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#850    monk 56

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:22 PM

Hi Cladking,

We must wait until technology gives us ways to investigate without damaging the Pyramids, there may be riddles left to find but not yet!

I can't walk and need a walking stick so find the Riddle of the Sphinx very funny:-

http://www.jimloy.com/puzz/sphinx0.htm


#851    cladking

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:01 PM

View Postmonk 56, on 05 March 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

We must wait until technology gives us ways to investigate without damaging the Pyramids, there may be riddles left to find but not yet!

I can't walk and need a walking stick so find the Riddle of the Sphinx very funny:-

http://www.jimloy.com/puzz/sphinx0.htm

I believe all the technology needed has existed for decades but is not being utilized.  They just
quit doing the basic science long ago.  They are quicker to board up and padlock what they don't
know than to experiment and investigate. This is why progress is not being made in understanding
even the most basic aspects of the ancients.

I would guess that once all the pieces fall into place we won't need to dynamite and drill  holes to
get more information.  If something destructive is needed than we'll know in advance the least de-
structive way to get what we need.  We won't be drilling holes just to see what's behind doors. We
won't be going up blind alleys.

There are a huge number of clues and extensive evidence and no one has been able to put it
all together yet.  This can only come with more data, perhaps.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#852    kmt_sesh

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:06 PM

View Postdreamland, on 05 March 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

I want to say something..we must find hidden messages left by the builders,for us to know the real truth,how they were build.I do believe, and i am sure that builders had to leave behind their secret knowledge..think about it...why there is a subterranean chamber under the pyramid...why there is a tunnel that goes under the great sphinx..and also one on top,why there is a secret notch in great pyramid.... why all of these? answer is simple..to find good place and  store their secret knowledge. We will eventaully find out where this secret knowledge is,,but only when we humans are ready for this. Take a look at this notch again.. the upper part of the pyramid is practically unknown. maybe there is some secret room,is there an entrance thru this notch? who knows..

*Image Snip*

If the Egyptians maintained stores of secret knowledge, it would have little to nothing to do with construction techniques. "Secret knowledge" would've been more on the order of ritual and religious protocols for ceremonies and cultic activities. A lot of this is actually observable on temple walls in spaces where ordinary people were never permitted to go, but it's impossible to assess the full extent of what might be lost on perishable materials like papyrus.

The place where the most important ritual texts were kept was in the part of each large state temple called the pr-anx ("House of Life"). This was a sort of library maintained by the staffs of the largest temples. It's also where scribes were trained who would serve the temples. If you wanted (and could afford) a Book of the Dead, for example, individual sections of spells on sheets of papyrus were stored, pre-written, in the House of Life. In fact, while so much must be lost on perishable materials, it is arguably the Book of the Dead, of which over a thousand examples are extant, which preserves the largest extent of ritual writing originating from temples.

It depends on how one defines "secret," also. Popular with fringe writers is the whole mystery-school thing. This simply was not part of the Egyptian tradition. The closest one would come is the training for priests so that they could perform their duties correctly. Mystery cults were popular among the Greeks and Romans, but they weren't quite so "mysterious" as modern people tend to think—considering many of the ceremonies and rituals performed by these "schools" were staged in public venues and attended by all manner of people who wanted to watch.

As for the cavities and chambers you mentioned in your post, people have scaled every inch of the Great Pyramid for two centuries. The notch you mentioned is not secret. Some years back Archaeology magazine ran an article with numerous photos of Bob Brier exploring it. The notch comprises a tiny, enclosed chamber. The most interesting thing about the photos is how it shows the jumbled, hodge-podge nature of the masonry deeper inside the pyramid. There is no passageway or chamber on top of the Sphinx, aside from the large divot Vyse introduced there with his dynamite in the 1830s. The largest void inside the Sphinx is the narrow tunnel which opens near the monument's rear end—and all it does is dead-end after a short journey.

View Postmonk 56, on 05 March 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

One thing we don't want to see is a return to the 1830's when Richard Vyse blew chunks out of the pyramid with explosives in an effort to find secret passages, it makes me go cold thinking about it!...

I couldn't agree more. Nevertheless, you will see posters right here at UM who, if left to themselves, would tear apart Egypt left and right and dig willy-nilly just to satisfy their misplaced notions. Thank goodness that attitude is ignored by the scientific-minded folks of today. And thank goodness it is the scientific-minded folks who control excavations and research.

Vyse is only one example of sloppy explorers of past days. Sir Wallis Budge was quite the hack in his own right. He stole from Egypt one of the largest and finest Books of the Dead ever to survive from ancient Egypt, and successfully returned it to the British Museum—where he chopped it into sections to study it more easily. Early Egyptology is not the only field to have suffered these indignities. While we owe to Heinrich Schliemann the "discovery" of the Bronze Age society of Mycenaean Greece, he will always probably be more remembered as the hack who manically chopped the tell of Hissarlik to pieces in his zeal to find Troy.

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#853    DieChecker

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:16 AM

View Postcladking, on 04 March 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

It requires actual scientific sampling to have any meaning at all.  
So I can feel free to Dismiss your ideas because they don't have any scientific sampling done either?

Quote

Ramps would be as big a project as the pyramid.  The word "ramp" would be littered throughout the cemeteries.  There would be gods of ramps and stone draggers.  There would be sled builders and repairers.  
Opinon....

Quote

There were no ramps.  Ramps are a silly way to lift stones 481'.  They might be impossible for lifting stones 481' but the evidence says it doesn't matter.
Not my evidence.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#854    DieChecker

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:27 AM

View Postcladking, on 04 March 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Why would evidence for ramps be on the inside unless they used unevidenced internal ramps?
I thought that was pretty clear. The ramp RESTED on the steps. And they placed blocks onto the steps as they went down... aligning the sides of the pyramid and cladding the sides. At least that is an idea I had, based on a step pyramid design.

They obviously would not have been able to clear 100% of the ramp debris from the work area, and so there would be ramp material in the voids and mixed with the mortor where those Steps would have been. It could be that much of the ramp was simply paved over as they moved down filling in the steps.

Quote

If they were on the inside then why don't they show up on the scan?  Why are you married to ramps?  
The ramp remains would be what produced the weird density changes in the density scan.

I like ramps because I know they had that technology. Evidence ramps exists in various forms in many places in Egypt. What I don't like is leaping to wild conclusions with no evidence.

Quote

There are horizontal and vertical lines on the pyramids and no diagonal lines.  You still can't clad a pyramid with spiral ramps.  You can't build a pyramid under a massive pile.  You can't build a pyramid the hard way when there is an easy way.  You can't build a pyramid with ramps and leave only evidence for other means.
This is going off your OWN step pyramid idea Clad. You said they would fill in the stones on the sides and clad the sides as they finished the steps... top down. They would have to build under a pile. Top down. They would not have to have evidence such as lines on the outside. Since all the finish work would be done on the way down.

Just looking at the 2nd pyramid, you can see that the cladding is still on the top after thousands of years. How hard would it be to fill in the cladding on the way down for a couple weeks at a time? Not very...

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#855    DieChecker

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:32 AM

View Postcladking, on 04 March 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Let me point out two things that affect your contention here.  First is that the scan is looking into the p[yramid only three meters at the top and ten meters at the bottom.  
Interesting. I'd not read that before.

Quote

Also, if the steps were merely to hold ramps then logically the steps should decrease in height as you go higher because the ramps would need to keep the same angle.
That is a good point. The ramp would not have the same amount of length in which to rise to the next step... hummm.....

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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