37 replies to this topic

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White Unicorn, on 29 December 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

If tech evolves fast our society as a whole must evolve just as fast so not be left behind because of it !

That's what the entire world is trying to deal with, especially since it's obvious the singularity is coming closer and closer and then we wont be able the catch up instead if we become part robot ourselves.
Look at the whole justice department, they haven't even begun grasping all the IT concepts.

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me-wonders, on 29 December 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

There is just no way manufacturing is going to require a large work force like it did our past.  It is not as simple as getting more education.  That education will be essential to getting a job, but the number of jobs will not employ the masses that past manufacturing did.  The link features a young intelligent woman, who got pregnant.  She is very lucky to have one of the few non skilled jobs, and there is no way she can work to support her child, and raise her child, and return to school, until her child is raised, and then her advanced years will become a barrier to employment. Her low income fate is sealed, but she is still much better off than all the people who are not needed, because robotics have replaced humans.

It is not my point to be pessimistic but carry through with the hopes of promises of which White Unicorn speaks, of the increases of productivity, with decrease human effort, leading to the good life.   This is a great puzzle that we absolutely must figure out.   If the greater mass is living in poverty, and can not buy the nice homes and cars and all the products and services that go with them, the whole economic structure will fall.  Like we could have the poverty of India if we do not figure this out.  This would be a shame.  Will our success destroy us, or will we figure this out?

The really terrible fact of life is, not everyone is college material, and there are only so many non skilled jobs for the masses.  What are we to do?

But you have to realise that were are moving away from mass production. The demassification has already begun. Look at 3D printers for example, within this decade ppl can set up shops with their own creations anywhere they want. No more mass producing.

We're also moving away from poverty thanks to technology in all its facets. If you compare these last years with a hundred years ago, we're doing pretty well and we keep progressing.
We are already figuring it out, we're in the middle of it lets say. Companies are finally becoming more aware that participatory design is better than old waterfall methods.

The example of your young woman. Thanks to technology she could do whatever she wants from the comfort of her own home and be close to her child and make her own work schedule.
Thanks to technology she doesn't even have to start her own company because telework is becoming increasingly popular.

And as i've mentioned, yes the older and less educated population is one of the main resistence points still. Because they act in fear and create the self furfilling prophecy of being fired in favor of technology because they refuse to comply and grow with the company. They are set in their ways. This is also the fault of the companies and designers for not preparing them enough for the arrival of a new system. But insight in this has grown also. The current older generations are troubling, but this isn't something that will last forever. So there is definitely room for some optimism in the end.
It also the responsibility of the elder population to open their minds to new ways instead letting themselves be consumed by fear over "robotics" and "automatisation".

Taylorism isn't of this time anymore, some (mainly older) ppl still need to realise this.

[me-wonders]

Render, on 30 December 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

But you have to realise that were are moving away from mass production. The demassification has already begun. Look at 3D printers for example, within this decade ppl can set up shops with their own creations anywhere they want. No more mass producing.

We're also moving away from poverty thanks to technology in all its facets. If you compare these last years with a hundred years ago, we're doing pretty well and we keep progressing.
We are already figuring it out, we're in the middle of it lets say. Companies are finally becoming more aware that participatory design is better than old waterfall methods.

The example of your young woman. Thanks to technology she could do whatever she wants from the comfort of her own home and be close to her child and make her own work schedule.
Thanks to technology she doesn't even have to start her own company because telework is becoming increasingly popular.

And as i've mentioned, yes the older and less educated population is one of the main resistence points still. Because they act in fear and create the self furfilling prophecy of being fired in favor of technology because they refuse to comply and grow with the company. They are set in their ways. This is also the fault of the companies and designers for not preparing them enough for the arrival of a new system. But insight in this has grown also. The current older generations are troubling, but this isn't something that will last forever. So there is definitely room for some optimism in the end.
It also the responsibility of the elder population to open their minds to new ways instead letting themselves be consumed by fear over "robotics" and "automatisation".

Taylorism isn't of this time anymore, some (mainly older) ppl still need to realise this.

What planet do you live on?

Poverty continues to rise in U.S., now 15.1% - CBS News

www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-20105376.html
Sep 13, 2011 – The nation's official poverty rate increased for the third year in a row - 15.1 percent in 2010, up from 14.3 percent in 2009. In the last three years, ...

By the way I am far more informed about the advances in technology than any of my adult grandchildren who are so busy trying to figure out life, they refuse to take advantage of the DVD college lectures about where technology is going and the books I have explaining the technological society we are  becoming and nano technology.   I think your statement about the responsibility of the elderly population is prejudiced by youth?

Edited by me-wonders, 04 January 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[me-wonders]

White Unicorn, on 29 December 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

We did move ultrafast fast from the industrial revolution to computer tech and robotics in all fields.  We had labor unions the first time around which meant workers who were displaced were trained to fill the gaps created.  They  had appreticeships and trained you for the new job functions for the new tech right out of high school!  You didn't need a master's degree you had on the job training as well as special classes.  Now they just seem to displace workers and hire people with degrees and then TRAIN  them instead of the displaced workers.  Labor unions went too far in one direction and the free market went too far in the other direction during the last tech revolution. Major factor I see is when the older workers with highly specific jobs get displaced they are too old to the company to be retrained because they want younger workers who won't be retiring soon after being retrained.  They have to compete in a labor market with younger and stronger people so a lot of them are left out of the job market and spend down all their resources.   Society needs to find middle ground to keep people productive not just early underfunded  retirements!  Economy slides when all these people lose disposable income and it seems no one pays attention to the reprocussions until after it downswings for several decades. If tech evolves fast our society as a whole must evolve just as fast so not be left behind because of it !

You are raising my blood pressure!    I majored in gerontology, the study of aging.   I am very excited about how long lived people can impact society.  A major problem we have at this time is specialization.   Before the 1958 National Defense Education Act, everyone was prepared to be a generalist and to live a well rounded life.  Education for technology focused on a very narrow ban of IQ, and specialization.  There are terrible social and economic ramifications to this!  

I so remember believing I was a reasonably intellect person capable of doing any job that needed to be done, and I did not worry that might be able to get a job, but expected to become a well paid bureaucrat, after raising my children.

A C grade average was good for a degree and research showed those with C averages were doing better in life than the A students.  It was assumed they did better because of having well rounded lives.  Then bam!  things changed!   I hate the change and I am so thankful for discussion that gives me an opportunity to talk about it.

I had to drop out of college to care for my family and before I could return, an excellent gerontology program was totally changed.  The female director who was well rounded, was replaced by a male ass who didn't know much about life, but met the technological requirements for the position.  A C average was no longer good enough for graduation.  How do I say?  We are creating a very ugly reality for ourselves with a false belief in our superiority, unrealistic expectations about what technology can do for us, and specialization. Only those who sell out and play the college game qualify for the jobs that are now restricted to those who have specific education and the required work experience. These folks know nothing about life beyond their own personal experience of it, and are blindly reliant on the authority above them.  And given their youth, what know about life isn't much..   Like we are not just moving to robotics, but our whole society is becoming mechanical, like the one we defended our democracy against.

Am I being clear about this?  The purpose of education has changed, and this changes the culture we live in.   We were generalist and are now specialist, and among other things this shifts power from the individual to authority above the individual.   The change happened in education and the work place.   This is no longer the democracy we defended in two world wars, but what we defended our democracy against.

Our young have no memory of when individuals felt empower and like their lives had purpose and meaning, regardless of how educated they were.  Our 8th grade drop outs are not ready to start their own businesses, as they were when we prepared everyone for civic and industrial leadership, while our young think they know it all and the old folks don't.      There was a time when we used mythology to teach about the folly of youth, and the reason it is a good idea to respect elders.   We are now smart, but no longer wise.   I worry about our liberty if we continue down this path of a blind belief in what some God like power is going to do for us.   Like they aren't worshiping the God of the bible, but put their faith in a non spiritual God like power.   We might regret this.

Edited by me-wonders, 04 January 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[Professor T]

me-wonders, on 29 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Marx argued, capitalism evolves and becomes self destructive.   I think we have hit the self destructive point.   This is not just capitalism, but we no longer need a mass of non skilled laborers, and there will never again be a need for a large mass of workers.   So now what?

Ironically the "So now what" senario is being played out as we type..
The Industrial age is on it's last leg's and we've surely entered the information age..
Sure we as a society no-longer need non-skilled workers.. But what we do need and what seems to be a natural progression towards information, ideas, the kind of root cause and effect and what if senario's that get thrown around the forums "like this one" that serve as a breeding ground for future developments.. We mustn't take it for granted that minds around around the world can share and promote Ideas on the Web like this in a heartbeat..

In the Information age there are truths and lies, and those who promote truthes and lies.. He who controls the information in an information age controls the World!!!! And here we are in the middle of it serving ourselves by sifting through what we percieve as truthes or Lies and trying to make sense of this shift in ages because for the most part we're ill-prepared for it.. If we really want to own the future we have to ensure that the information we have at hand is free and true, which will take an army of heathy sceptics and dreamers to achieve.

The whole Caplitalist, Corporate and Consumerist structure is Self Serving.. That is to say, that it's interests or intention is self sustaining only, and hense it has become parasitic in nature. In the information age, ensuring that all the information we have are truthes that serve others instead of Self or select few will require a thinking or awakened workforce.

[White Unicorn]

Professor T, on 04 January 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Ironically the "So now what" senario is being played out as we type..
The Industrial age is on it's last leg's and we've surely entered the information age..
Sure we as a society no-longer need non-skilled workers.. But what we do need and what seems to be a natural progression towards information, ideas, the kind of root cause and effect and what if senario's that get thrown around the forums "like this one" that serve as a breeding ground for future developments.. We mustn't take it for granted that minds around around the world can share and promote Ideas on the Web like this in a heartbeat..

In the Information age there are truths and lies, and those who promote truthes and lies.. He who controls the information in an information age controls the World!!!! And here we are in the middle of it serving ourselves by sifting through what we percieve as truthes or Lies and trying to make sense of this shift in ages because for the most part we're ill-prepared for it.. If we really want to own the future we have to ensure that the information we have at hand is free and true, which will take an army of heathy sceptics and dreamers to achieve.

The whole Caplitalist, Corporate and Consumerist structure is Self Serving.. That is to say, that it's interests or intention is self sustaining only, and hense it has become parasitic in nature. In the information age, ensuring that all the information we have are truthes that serve others instead of Self or select few will require a thinking or awakened workforce.

So concerning the "what can we do now attitude" of Me Wonders and Professor T views of what we can do now is in the works.  

All the generations must learn from each other and share ideas with the free flowing information technologies, not all older people are anti technology and they do have first hand experience to offer the younger generations who are still green to some of the truths.

Some techno people  even when continuing education and  job skills are  usually  thrown out by corporations by the old  "coach them up or coach them out"  when they become  more costly at  45-50 due to health benefits and pensions and their  higher wages are targeted. There is discrimination but its done in sly ways not to be enforcable. Once you get older they will schedule you so you can't keep going to college or training but It is always an "oversight" each year. Fortune 500 Companies like younger workers who don't know all the regulations involved and blindly follow their leaders in profit schemes that put them in more precarious positions if a regulatory violation is discovered. Younger workers can sometimes get excused for lack of knowledge or out of their job function but older ones can't  because they have experience and can't use that excuse. If the older workers play by the rules, they don't make as much profit as the younger more daring ones who don't even know the risks they are taking. If they play the "game" they will be let go at will or for just cause while the real designers of the schemes continue their executive  strategies and devise new golden parachutes for themselves.  

That is why the savy younger generation full of motivation to excel get that higher pay with the corporations and they don't realize it ....they shouldn't believe it is because they're so talented that some of the higher executives are encouraging them, they are a pawn for the real "greed players of corporations" who know how to cover their tracks with many scape goats and tech error systems to manipulate others to meet their goals and bare any discovered consequences.  Certain tech correction projects have been going on for decades!   The same mistakes which favor the company is contracted with new tech people who don't realize that some higher ups never want certain things ever fixed because it is a means for the company being held harmless to regulatory violations!  

I love the free flowing information just as Professor T  because  if all the truth eventually gets out to all people it will be a breeding ground for better things to happen for all of us!  Facts need to get out to the right people who are ethical and have the influence to make necessary changes.

[Professor T]

The Truth shall let you free..

Free-flowing information is under attack every day. And I'm not just talking about the age old copyright and plagarism sagas because the intention behind those laws is only money. The Information that should be free is the suppressed stuff, the truthes that hurt but need to be told such as the likes you find on wikileaks or other "real" & independant sources. Or truthes about the nature of our world and our system of civilisation and what is the real glue holding it all together..

Ultimately though, as Me-wonders has pointed out, it all begins with Education.. It's laughable, but the world they taught to me in school just ins't the world I've come to know..    And now that I'm smart enough to spot some of the lies (thanks to the likes of Wikileaks) I wan't to see change.. Real change!! Not plastic words from the likes of Obama, but a real change in society that is lead by the massess and not lead by a select few..

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me-wonders, on 04 January 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

What planet do you live on?

Poverty continues to rise in U.S., now 15.1% - CBS News

www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-20105376.html
Sep 13, 2011 – The nation's official poverty rate increased for the third year in a row - 15.1 percent in 2010, up from 14.3 percent in 2009. In the last three years, ...

By the way I am far more informed about the advances in technology than any of my adult grandchildren who are so busy trying to figure out life, they refuse to take advantage of the DVD college lectures about where technology is going and the books I have explaining the technological society we are  becoming and nano technology.   I think your statement about the responsibility of the elderly population is prejudiced by youth?

What planet are YOU from?
Newsflash -- The global economy has been heading for and been in crisis for a couple of years now. To whip up an article about poverty rising is linked to the crisis ... not to more use of technology, that's what you make of it because it's convenient for your argument.

Good for you that you are informed, i praise that. Because reality is that not many are like that from the elder generations. Im not prejuidiced by youth. You'll find these resistant tendencies in most companies when trying to reform or introducing a new system/new way of thinking. It's fact, im sorry if you don't like to hear it because you don;t view yourself like that, but the majority of the senior population is not that open YET to automatisation and are more fearful if a company brings up the topic of introducing new and possible more technology.