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Trying to think realistically


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#16    nopeda

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 19 December 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

I think there is a possibility that the alians have been here Mabey even seeded life, but that dosnt constitute god, unless the alian comes from another universe perhaps and initiates this one. Even if we are a program in another beings computer, that still to me dosnt constitute a god even though it would be god like.
Consider the possibilities of a technological Singularity that happen trillions upon trillions of eons ago. A never ending cycle of slow progression of universes to evolve conciousness, then the conciousness taking concious control over its own evolution and continually expanding it exponentially.
In the documentary transcendence man Ray kurzwell thinks that we will evenchually manufacture tiny microscopic nano bots that remain connected to each other, are self replicating, and form immense ever growing network in which our own consciousnesses are downloaded into. He thinks one day the galaxy will "awaken" with this sort ever increasing technology.
I say in all of eternity, why hasnt it happened yet. I think it has. If a god like being can evolve, then it surely already has.
Not surely but it could have. If the universe is expanding and contracting beings who survive through the cycles and influence development during them could be considered gods imo. In order for them/God whatever to have significant impact he/they would have to be technologically advanced imo and that has to be developed, not all of a sudden just awakened to.


#17    nopeda

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:02 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 19 December 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Quote

nopeda, on 19 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:
Maybe natural would be better. What I'm really pointing out is that it would not be supernatural.
From what I understand the Hindu belief is that this is a dream by the creator, and he wakes up every now and then... If we were part of a cell or something then it's not likely God would know or care about our existence though. I'll stick with the technology, unless he somehow eventually figured out how to overcome it. I feel that at some point God or beings before him would have had to develop it though.
Well I care about my cells, I try to take care of them, and if they were conciousnes I'd probably love them. If god is the whole it has no choice but to look inward.
We meaning neither of us know that or could know it. We would be on something below the cellular level. Way below it, not that anyone tries to communicate with their cells anyway.


#18    ouija ouija

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:03 PM

View Postnopeda, on 06 January 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

I say things that happen that seem spiritual to us can be physical in ways we're not aware of. Things that our brain believes happened because of outside influence could be physical in the chemical and electical manipulations that generate the illusions, while the percieved events never did physically take place.

Getting there, haha! Could you give some examples, please?

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#19    Beany

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:59 PM

View Postnopeda, on 18 December 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

God might not exist. That covers that. God might exist. That opens infinite possibilities. For years I've been trying to think realistically about how God could exist, and here is a list of basic ideas in an attempt to do so:

1. If God exists he almost certainly would have to be an alien.

Do you mean alien as in alien to humans, or do you mean an ET?

2. If there is a creator associated with this planet, all
who refer to him refer to the same being regardless of what
they call him or what they think about him.

3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do
would be natural for them.

4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he
could not provide proof of his existence because doing
so would change things too much.

We don't know what this presumed being wants, so we can't suppose the motives of this being's behavior.

5. Since the terms omnipotent and omniscient appear to
make themselves impossible, it's unrealistic to try assigning
those particular characteristics to God if he exists.

6. Since disbelief is a form of belief, the degree of faith a
person has that God does not exist is what determines how
strong an atheist he or she is, or is not.

Disbelief is the opposite of belief, not a form of belief. Disbelief is a state, not a degree of a condition. Either you're in or your out.

7. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find
it impossible to comprehend the ability of considering the possibility
that God does not exist and also the possibility that he does.

Ever heard of agnostics? It's quite a large group. While I have little faith and belief, I can certainly follow the logic & thinking of those whose beliefs are different from mine. In fact, I've reached my state of faith & disbelief by, among other things, considering and studying the beliefs of others.

8. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find
it impossible to comprehend much less appreciate basic number 2.

There's no basis in fact for this statement. I appreciate the thought, but it's really just an opinion, to which, of course, we're all entitled. This is not true of me, nor of most of my friends who care about this kind of thing.

9. People who claim to be strong atheists often/usually asburdly
try to deny their own faith that God does not exist...faith which is
a necessary part of being a strong atheist.

Atheism is not a faith, it is an absence of religious faith, usually reached by a long & thoughtful process. Of course they would deny that it is a faith, because it is not, see definition of atheism: The theory or belief that God does not exist. Notice the absence of the modifier "religious" in front of the word "belief."

10. Whether God exists or not it seems apparent that life must have
originated from lifelessness to begin with, and may do it fairly often.

11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely
beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate
and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic
realistically.

An untested belief system isn't worth much. How else do we learn & grow in our faith/religion if we don't engage in discourse with those whose opinions may differ from ours?

12. We should not allow childlike and unrealistic attempts at comparing
the concept of gods with those of childlike ideas like the tooth fairy,
the Easter Bunny, invisible pink unicorns, spaghetti monsters etc
encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate and interfere
with our own attempts to think about this topic realistically.

13. If gods exist they would necessarily have to be technologically
advanced far beyond we humans on Earth, to the point that they became
gods.

Are you saying superior technology is a key component of a god?

14. If God exists he almost certainly would not be restricted to any
particular body, form, or gender. (disclaimer: I refer to God as "he" out
of convenience and because that's how we are encouraged to refer to "him"
in most if not all canonical texts.)

15. If God exists it seems most likely that he has as much influence
over the content of canonical texts as he wants to have.

That's a Christian fundamentalist belief, the god-breathed bible, which totally ignores man's own culpability and responsibility for creation of canonical text and the results of those actions.

16. If God exists, it seems quite clear he makes use of the evolutionary
method of creation.

17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are
most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.

I define spiritual as a state of being, not a thing, but yeah, I think many people view unexplained phenomena as a manifestation of the "spiritual" when the explanation that it's a natural occurrence, is just as likely. I would caution you not to assume that agnostics or atheists reach their conclusions without putting a lot of time & study & thought into it. They are most likely just as thoughtful and at least as smart as you or I, and didn't arrive at their conclusions casually.


#20    Pupp3t

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:57 AM

We always try to comprehend God logically, in a manner that we can physically interact with Him. If God is who He is, then logic would be defied every now and then.
Maybe He's a Being who doesn't follow our Earthly Laws, or the Univere's Laws. Maybe He is everywhere, in every little particle out there. Maybe He is the Universe, and we're just living within Him. Which sounds pretty odd, but who cares. :sk


#21    Beany

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:50 AM

My beliefs have diminished to the concept of an informed, intelligent energy that permeates everything.  I made a conscious decision to put aside everything I believed to be true, because I think it quite likely that I was only seeing what I've been trained to see and thinking what I've been trained to think, and these preconceptions of mine may prevent me from seeing what's actually there. It's an experiment which may or may not have any value, but I feel the need to reach any conclusions independent as much as possible from the influences of someone else's thinking or experiences. I've created an empty space, now I'm waiting to see if anything fills it.


#22    joc

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:55 AM

View PostBeany, on 07 January 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

My beliefs have diminished to the concept of an informed, intelligent energy that permeates everything.  I made a conscious decision to put aside everything I believed to be true, because I think it quite likely that I was only seeing what I've been trained to see and thinking what I've been trained to think, and these preconceptions of mine may prevent me from seeing what's actually there. It's an experiment which may or may not have any value, but I feel the need to reach any conclusions independent as much as possible from the influences of someone else's thinking or experiences. I've created an empty space, now I'm waiting to see if anything fills it.
I have to say, I don't think anything will ever fill it.  I think you have actually achieved something quite remarkable.  The Empty Space.  That is about as real as it can get from my perspective. :)

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#23    Jinxdom

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:03 AM

You could come to the conclusion of god if you work your way back through with a series of questions but do not use words use pictures.

Start from the right and work back to the left. When you get to where you can't ask anymore questions you found God. Now trying to actually put words to what God is well, good luck with that. Some people give up on asking questions way to soon and come out kind of fruity.

Start with a circle divide it in half is pretty much the basic idea of what god is(basically dividing by 0 and you wonder why calculators and people go insane when trying to figure it out)


#24    libstaK

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

View Postjoc, on 07 January 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

I have to say, I don't think anything will ever fill it.  I think you have actually achieved something quite remarkable.  The Empty Space.  That is about as real as it can get from my perspective. :)
Actually nature abhors a vacuum, so I think something will fill it - if the space is truly empty, it will be something remarkable and likely indescribable.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#25    Beany

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:00 PM

View Postjoc, on 07 January 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

I have to say, I don't think anything will ever fill it.  I think you have actually achieved something quite remarkable.  The Empty Space.  That is about as real as it can get from my perspective. :)

Actually, what's happening is it's being filled with ME, the closer-to-the-bone me. What's underneath all those preconceptions about who I am, my relationship with the world, the nature of the world, all the mind trips, is me. Creating that empty space, and it's probably not as empty as I think it is, was anxiety producing, but now it feels like a new beginning.


#26    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

View Postnopeda, on 06 January 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:


Not surely but it could have. If the universe is expanding and contracting beings who survive through the cycles and influence development during them could be considered gods imo. In order for them/God whatever to have significant impact he/they would have to be technologically advanced imo and that has to be developed, not all of a sudden just awakened to.
Certainly evolution must have a hand. But it's hard to visualize an eternity of evolution, which has almost surely occurred. Stretching into the infinit past, by sheer probability it would seem likely that a godlike/agragate conciousness being should exist.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#27    Reann

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

View Postnopeda, on 18 December 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

God might not exist. That covers that. God might exist. That opens infinite possibilities. For years I've been trying to think realistically about how God could exist, and here is a list of basic ideas in an attempt to do so:

1. If God exists he almost certainly would have to be an alien.

2. If there is a creator associated with this planet, all
who refer to him refer to the same being regardless of what
they call him or what they think about him.

3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do
would be natural for them.

4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he
could not provide proof of his existence because doing
so would change things too much.

5. Since the terms omnipotent and omniscient appear to
make themselves impossible, it's unrealistic to try assigning
those particular characteristics to God if he exists.

6. Since disbelief is a form of belief, the degree of faith a
person has that God does not exist is what determines how
strong an atheist he or she is, or is not.

7. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find
it impossible to comprehend the ability of considering the possibility
that God does not exist and also the possibility that he does.

8. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find
it impossible to comprehend much less appreciate basic number 2.

9. People who claim to be strong atheists often/usually asburdly
try to deny their own faith that God does not exist...faith which is
a necessary part of being a strong atheist.

10. Whether God exists or not it seems apparent that life must have
originated from lifelessness to begin with, and may do it fairly often.

11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely
beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate
and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic
realistically.

12. We should not allow childlike and unrealistic attempts at comparing
the concept of gods with those of childlike ideas like the tooth fairy,
the Easter Bunny, invisible pink unicorns, spaghetti monsters etc
encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate and interfere
with our own attempts to think about this topic realistically.

13. If gods exist they would necessarily have to be technologically
advanced far beyond we humans on Earth, to the point that they became
gods.

14. If God exists he almost certainly would not be restricted to any
particular body, form, or gender. (disclaimer: I refer to God as "he" out
of convenience and because that's how we are encouraged to refer to "him"
in most if not all canonical texts.)

15. If God exists it seems most likely that he has as much influence
over the content of canonical texts as he wants to have.

16. If God exists, it seems quite clear he makes use of the evolutionary
method of creation.

17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are
most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.
Right there you say he must almost certainly have to be an alien because....we will never fully understand that God just is.I don't think God is an alien as much as i don't think nature is alien and nature is a reflection of God's identity,right?


#28    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

View Postnopeda, on 06 January 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:


We meaning neither of us know that or could know it. We would be on something below the cellular level. Way below it, not that anyone tries to communicate with their cells anyway.
I do. There are several good meditations for this. Also, you do not communicate with a deaf mute with verbal words. You don't communicate with your aunt Sally on your phone with body language, and you don't communicate with your dog by writing him/her a letter.

A gods or higher spirits communication to us would be like trying to download a video from my iPhone to an old 486 computer. The difference in complexity and context of existence would be extreme. Even the hardware can be horribly inefficient at even containing the the message. and entire life may simply be a sentence.

It's funny because I just told this joke to my students recently, and I have been telling this same joke since I was 6 years old. ( my mother even askes me to tell it again occasionally)

Short version

This man asks god.

"God how much is an inch to you"

God says

"a million miles"

The man asks

" how much is a second to you"

God says

" a million years"

He asks

"how much Is a penny to you"

God says

"a million dollars"

Extremely excited, the man asks

" God, can I have a penny?!?!?"

God says

"just a second"


"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#29    sutemi

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:06 PM

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#30    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 07 January 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Stretching into the infinit past, by sheer probability it would seem likely that a godlike/agragate conciousness being should exist.

I'm not quite following the reasoning here.  Are you just saying that in any infinite amount of time we should expect everything conceivable (and inconceivable) to have actually existed?

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman




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