32 replies to this topic

[fadedface]

Hasina, on 21 December 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

I was taught to share when I had things to share but I was also taught that I shouldn't expect things. I work for what is mine, they can work for theirs.

I understand I come from a privledged background, but my parents didn't. They worked hard to provide for their children (me and my sisters) so we could have more then they did and enjoy and work for more.

I'll help others work towards obtaining what they should do to provide for themselves. As an accountant, I do. I crunch numbers for my coworkers so they can get their pay checks on time while they provide the actual business that brings in the money and makes me a worthwhile investment.

People from a privileged middle and upper class background should give everything they have or be forced to give everything to disadvantaged people who have been denied the oppurtunities that they have had. Part of the problem in society is all you self serving smug privileged people who have had all the oppurtunity in life given to you and you patronize the rest of us that you've earnt it when in reality you've had all the breaks in life that have been denied to others even though you and you're kind don't admit it.

Edited by fadedface, 24 December 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[jugoso]

Rlyeh, on 24 December 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

We all have our delusions.

Which capitalism doesn't prevent.

Well it certainly doesn´t encourage it. Inherent greed and capitalism seem to go hand in hand.

Critics of capitalism associate it with social inequality and unfair distribution of wealth and power; a tendency toward market monopoly oroligopoly (and government by oligarchy); imperialism, counter-revolutionary wars and various forms of economic and cultural exploitation;materialism; repression of workers and trade unionists; social alienation; economic inequality; unemployment; and economic instability.

Edited by jugoso, 24 December 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[Hasina]

fadedface, on 24 December 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

People from a privileged middle and upper class background should give everything they have or be forced to give everything to disadvantaged people who have been denied the oppurtunities that they have had. Part of the problem in society is all you self serving smug privileged people who have had all the oppurtunity in life given to you and you patronize the rest of us that you've earnt it when in reality you've had all the breaks in life that have been denied to others even though you and you're kind don't admit it.

They haven't been denied it, no more then people who were born into middle or upper class backgrounds 'handed' their things. These things happen by chance, it's what you decide to do with what you're given.

First, let me tackle the bits that I've bolded. I find it startlingly insulting that you'd lump me into the 'self-serving smug privileged people, who patronize the rest of 'you', when I've had all the breaks, and I won't admit it.'

Hasina, on 21 December 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

I understand I come from a privileged background, but my parents didn't. They worked hard to provide for their children (me and my sisters) so we could have more then they did and enjoy and work for more.

Notice, I mention I come from a privileged background, I admit that fact, I've grown up in a lower-middle class to a upper-middle class family, I know the value of hard work. Second, I've never patronized people who have a lower living standard then myself or make less then me or anything like that.

Third, the only thing my father provides me is a roof over my head nowadays. I pay him rent from my job, I pay for my own food, my own clothing, etc and so forth. If I had to live on my own, even with my current job, I would be living from pay check to pay check. I am lucky and I admit that.

And give everything they have? Then they'd have less then you. They'd have nothing. I suppose it's okay to be spiteful when you've spent you're life seeing others live lavishly but that doesn't mean you should burn the yard because of a few moles.

I give when I can, money, time, the sweat of my brow, but I cannot be an automaton for the less fortunate, I am privileged, I am sorry.

[The world needs you]

The rich and the poor will have to dialogue.

The belief by the rich that the poor are just lazy falls apart when you look at the numbers overall and wealth distribution is becoming more and more imbalanced. There is not suddenly all these new people who decided to become lazy.

Also if you are rich but hire people at tremendously lower wages so their standard of living is lower than yours then that is viewing them just as a product and one you should get at the lowest price, not seeing others as humans.

The belief by the poor that the rich are all greedy and want others to suffer is just not true. If they are greedy it is less or as equal as everyone else is, the expressions take different forms but if the poor hater switched shoes they would become what they hated, it was jealousy all along.

The problem is that upward mobility is currently being limited. Many can see that a few are greatly profiting while others are suffering. Sure at times it is purely become certain industries do well while others flounder. The problem then becomes that certain industries that profit do so on the misery of others although there is no study showing that all these companies are the same. So on both sides there are issues of perception.

The dialogue happens over and over throughout history, in every society that develops social stratification.

[evil_kenshin]

fadedface, on 24 December 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

People from a privileged middle and upper class background should give everything they have or be forced to give everything to disadvantaged people who have been denied the oppurtunities that they have had. Part of the problem in society is all you self serving smug privileged people who have had all the oppurtunity in life given to you and you patronize the rest of us that you've earnt it when in reality you've had all the breaks in life that have been denied to others even though you and you're kind don't admit it.

alot of these "Disadvantaged" people chose to be that way as they don't want to find a job/won't accept working their way up and expect things to be handed over to them freely (Expect to walk off the street into a CEO's position). Over here in Australia we have a term "dole bludger"  people who live on welfare and refuse to get a  job all the while whinging that the dole is not higher (occasionally they work cash in hand while claiming welfare but that is rare), they even live in state owned housing (no this doesn't include disabled, elderly etc as they are in separate categories these are healthy people that are mooches on society).  Do you really support people like this getting money for free from middle income & rich people?

[The world needs you]

evil_kenshin, on 24 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

alot of these "Disadvantaged" people chose to be that way as they don't want to find a job/won't accept working their way up and expect things to be handed over to them freely (Expect to walk off the street into a CEO's position). Over here in Australia we have a term "dole bludger"  people who live on welfare and refuse to get a  job all the while whinging that the dole is not higher (occasionally they work cash in hand while claiming welfare but that is rare), they even live in state owned housing (no this doesn't include disabled, elderly etc as they are in separate categories these are healthy people that are mooches on society).  Do you really support people like this getting money for free from middle income & rich people?

Is it not true that in your society the "dole bludger" label falls most on aboriginals and foreigners? There are ethnic divisions and tension that run concurrent to the type of language you are using.

Well if you invade a foreign country and do not give the original inhabitants the same type of communities, access to education, and good jobs, then why blame them for that?

If immigrants come and have access to mechanisms that allow upward mobility then they will integrate. If not they won't. We as a society design the environemnt and in return engineer society by doing so, it happens by commission or ommision.

If immigrants come and are just given dead end jobs then they society is choosing to use these people as a cheap source of labor with no path to equal status in society.

For you to try and say some people are like this or that without realizing how their environment has been manipulated and neglected then it is rather a narrow view you present that ignores certain variables.

Edited by I believe you, 24 December 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[evil_kenshin]

I believe you, on 24 December 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Is it not true that in your society the "dole bludger" label falls most on aboriginals and foreigners? There are ethnic divisions and tension that run concurrent to the type of language you are using.

Well if you invade a foreign country and do not give the original inhabitants the same type of communities, access to education, and good jobs, then why blame them for that?

If immigrants come and have access to mechanisms that allow upward mobility then they will integrate. If not they won't. We as a society design the environemnt and in return engineer society by doing so, it happens by commission or ommision.

If immigrants come and are just given dead end jobs then they society is choosing to use these people as a cheap source of labor with no path to equal status in society.

For you to try and say some people are like this or that without realizing how their environment has been manipulated and neglected then it is rather a narrow view you present that ignores certain variables.

no actually the typical dole bludger is portrayed as Caucasian (and usually drug dependent) living in "bogan" areas. One of my own aunt falls into this category she is a druggie, never worked in her life and mooch's off my grandma (and yes, has claimed the dole for a significant period of time, to the point she actually had 2 kids to extend her dole payments which she doesn't take care of and leaves it to my grandma to look after, one of which is seriously sick due to my aunt taking drugs during pregnancy)

Edited by evil_kenshin, 24 December 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[fadedface]

Hasina, on 24 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

They haven't been denied it, no more then people who were born into middle or upper class backgrounds 'handed' their things. These things happen by chance, it's what you decide to do with what you're given.

The socio economic background someone comes from still laregly determines how successful a person is and also their quality of life even though you probably wouldn't admit this because you've always had unfair social advantages that are denied from others. And the unfair social advantages you have extend beyond class distinctions and privilege

[The world needs you]

evil_kenshin, on 24 December 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

no actually the typical dole bludger is portrayed as Caucasian (and usually drug dependent) living in "bogan" areas. One of my own aunt falls into this category she is a druggie, never worked in her life and mooch's off my grandma (and yes, has claimed the dole for a significant period of time, to the point she actually had 2 kids to extend her dole payments which she doesn't take care of and leaves it to my grandma to look after, one of which is seriously sick due to my aunt taking drugs during pregnancy)

I don't believe you.

Seems you are deflecting the way that label is used.

You might call your aunt one but part of your society believes there are more to be found among certain groups.

Also calling people names, regardless of who they are, and then believing they are a certain way without understanding the role environment plays, is purely conservative politics and a type of the "us vs them" script.

Also sadly, so many feel just like their parents, how lame, have fun repeating the same mistakes in thinking as your parents but the rest of the world is moving on.

Edited by I believe you, 25 December 2012 - 03:21 AM.

[evil_kenshin]

I believe you, on 25 December 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

I don't believe you.

Seems you are deflecting the way that label is used.

You might call your aunt one but part of your society believes there are more to be found among certain groups.

Also calling people names, regardless of who they are, and then believing they are a certain way without understanding the role environment plays, is purely conservative politics and a type of the "us vs them" script.

Also sadly, so many feel just like their parents, how lame, have fun repeating the same mistakes in thinking as your parents but the rest of the world is moving on.

you don't have to believe me, but a dole bludger is portrayed as caucasion in the media etc, there's even a comedy television series called "housos" sponsored by centrelink (the welfare agency in our country) about dole bludgers who are white.

[The world needs you]

evil_kenshin, on 25 December 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

you don't have to believe me, but a dole bludger is portrayed as caucasion in the media etc, there's even a comedy television series called "housos" sponsored by centrelink (the welfare agency in our country) about dole bludgers who are white.

OK maybe that is the media's portrayal but how do other people use it? The kind who don't have to worry about others protesting and making them lose advertising revenue?

And to be definitive you are claiming "dole bludger" is not also used to describe aboriginals and immigrants?

But instead of just a part of them, as I imagine all Caucasians are not given that label, are the majority of aboriginals and immigrants given that label?

Edited by I believe you, 25 December 2012 - 09:34 AM.

[evil_kenshin]

I believe you, on 25 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

And to be definitive you are claiming "dole bludger" is not also used to describe aboriginals and immigrants?

But instead of just a part of them, as I imagine all Caucasians are not given that label, are the majority of aboriginals and immigrants given that label?

I never said aboriginals or immigrants are not called dole bludgers, in immigrants case its dependent, people who follow the normal immigrant procedure usually find work and are not viewed as such, while government statistics show a majority of aslyum seekers that force their way in via boat are still claiming welfare over 5 years since approved entry to the country. With aboriginals part of the problem is caused by there being certain welfare only for aboriginals (creating a "us vs them" mentality)

Edited by evil_kenshin, 25 December 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[The world needs you]

You might believe it is a one-way street where aboriginals and immigrants have decided to be part of another social class without understanding that society itself also plays a role.

evil_kenshin, on 25 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I never said aboriginals or immigrants are not called dole bludgers, in immigrants case its dependent, people who follow the normal immigrant procedure usually find work and are not viewed as such, while government statistics show a majority of aslyum seekers that force their way in via boat are still claiming welfare over 5 years since approved entry to the country. With aboriginals part of the problem is caused by there being certain welfare only for aboriginals (creating a "us vs them" mentality)

Which brings me back to this:

If immigrants come and have access to mechanisms that allow upward mobility then they will integrate. If not they won't. We as a society design the environment and in return engineer society by doing so, it happens by commission or ommision.

If immigrants come and are just given dead end jobs then society is choosing to use these people as a cheap source of labor with no path to equal status in society.

Edited by I believe you, 25 December 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Hazzard]

A "new era of peace and love" in the world,...!?

Sure, maybe when

[The world needs you]

Hazzard, on 25 December 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

A "new era of peace and love" in the world,...!?

Sure, maybe when

All this tells me is not only do you not believe others are not ready for peace and unity but that you are neither.

I am not ready either because I know the world outside is just a mirror of the one inside.

Peace and unity on the inside and outside, ya, I want it.

So it will come because more and more of us feel like this. We also understand that good and bad always occur, at the same time, you cannot completely get rid of one or the other, but the balance must be maintained and I do believe the scales are being tipped back.

Edited by I believe you, 25 December 2012 - 01:36 PM.