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Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide


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#196    Vincennes

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostAntilles, on 19 July 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

DM, I'm a bit behind you because I haven't read Ann Rule's book.

I remember the info about porn being found on Rebecca's computer. You're right about that.

I am reading your posts and they are very logical and you raise good questions.

The banister business - not the child. The BS about CPR being performed, the supposed bruises and marks on Max's body inconsistent with his fall. I have always suspected and I think I've always maintained that I believe Rebecca was involved in Max's death. And that is the reason for Rebecca's death.

If you read all the statements that you have set out, then these people either didn't know each other or went to peripatetic dinners with strangers who had the same names as the people involved in the affair. It's just bizarre.

I don't think there's a lot of truth coming out of the Zahau family. The cops really didn't get as much out of the little sister as they should. I mean, the whole police standard of investigation has been sloppy. That seems to happen a lot when rich or influential people are involved. If there's info regarding both deaths that has been hushed up, then we can only speculate as to what that might be. Obviously, the injuries to Max's body are one instance.

Your comment regarding the sister really tweaked a impression I had reading the book.  As I said, there really aren't many verified facts in it.  One of those was regarding the sister.  She had arrived the day of the incident and was planning on staying 2 weeks.  The day after the incident Rebecca hustles her right back to the airport and it seemed like she did it as if she was in a hurry.  This seemed to be verifiable because their were quoted texts between Rebecca and her sister from the airport.  The sister is a kid and Rebecca seemed concerned about her getting to the right gate.  Reminded her which gate it was.  The kid also had a 1 hour layover in another airport that Rebecca texted her about.  You are worried she can't handle airports and you didn't even wait to get her on a direct flight?  Why didn't she take her to the gate?  Sounded like she just dropped the kid off and then worried about it.  It was something that just struck me as I read it.  What's her hurry?  She was already committed to pick up Adam at the airport.  No actual flight times were stated but as I read it I thought, I would have probably just parked and stayed at the airport.  And your right, nothing much is mentioned as information coming from the sister.  Was that the reason for Rebecca's hurry?  She was getting the sister out of town as quickly as she could so that she wouldn't be as accessible to make statements.  At that point, Rebecca hadn't been told of Max's worsening condition.  So she might not have even been thinking about police involvement.  However, Jonah would be involved and would be asking questions even it  things calmed down.  I'm saying, the girl was in the shower, as she stated, so she really didn't see what happened.  Then the accident and Rebecca quickly tells the kid "what happened" enough for the ambulance drivers but you know, kids that age are always going to come up with some information you don't want out there and do it at exactly the wrong time!.   I think she was in a hurry, she got the kid "out of Dodge."


#197    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:13 PM

i love reading the back and fourth conversation going on here, but i feel rude to interupt :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:


http://www.luxist.co...ate-of-the-day/

^^^might be something of interest, i feel floorplans would help...

Edited by CuriousLittleOne, 19 July 2013 - 06:37 PM.

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#198    Antilles

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 06:55 AM

DM, I don't know if I'm way off the mark with this but I have been thinking about it.

What if it was the kid sister who was involved in Max's death and not Rebecca?

Obviously, the kid sister was got out of the way. I absolutely agree with you on that point.

You know, that could just as well explain the crap about CPR, the hysterical phone call, the sister's fast exit and Rebecca committing suicide.

It's just a thought.


#199    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:12 AM

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i cant stop thinking about it.... the door message.

i can only think of it as a last call for help, can YOU (whoever finds her, medics/friends/anyone) save her, sounds like she maybe didnt want to do it... and was hoping that someone would find her before it was too late.
i believe the whole elabourate knots and rope were to make the suicide (and i believe it was a suicide) foolproof.


"SHE (Rebecca) SAVED HIM (Max, from the pain of life/seeing her suicide, being hurt) / CAN YOU (JS) SAVE HER (Rebecca)"


on another note:

http://www.websleuth...d.php?p=8607229

the above link contains a very good breakdown of the door message.

http://www.crimescen...nce.autopsy.php
contains a autopsy of a woman who was murdered and the hanging was staged to appear to be a suicide..


credit where credit is due, the following images are from:http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8360007
Posted Image
some people have said the back scrapings are from struggling in the wiccer chair (come on  wiccar will hardly cause scrapings like that!) or from stucco wall coverings, im thinking gravel would cause that, particularly being dragged through it.....

Posted Image

Edited by CuriousLittleOne, 20 July 2013 - 07:45 AM.

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#200    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

THERE WAS EVIDENCE OF A STRUGGLE.... IGNORED BY POLICE INVESTIGATORS
  • There were paint splatters on her body and the noose
  • A chair was overturned in "hanging" bedroom
  • There were four contusions on her head
  • Screams reportedly heard by neighbors
  • Her arms were tied so she couldn't fight back.
  • Her legs were bound so she couldn't run away
  • There was clear plastic tape residue on her leg
  • She was gagged so she couldn't scream again
  • The noose was placed over her hair
  • A t-shirt was wrapped around the noose
  • Candleholder overturned on first floor
  • Two knives found in the "hanging" bedroom. Why 2?
  • Two paintbrushes found in the "hanging" bedroom. Why 2?
  • Abrasion on her finger
  • Blood on her body
  • Evidence of possible manual strangulation
  • Injuries inconsistent with vertical hanging
  • Her feet were caked with mud though there were not any muddy footprints inside the house
  • A message in the third person was written on the bedroom door of the crime scene. "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER" Why would a suicidal person leave a note with the words “her” and “she” instead of using “I” and “me”?
  • There were several unidentified fingerprints at the scene, Yet not everyone of interest (not living in the house) was fingerprinted. Not all of the DNA found at the scene was tested.


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#201    Antilles

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:38 PM

Good points curious one. I'm guessing you don't think Rebecca killed herself.......

Whether it was a suicide or a murder, it all boils down to Max.


#202    Vincennes

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:04 PM

View PostAntilles, on 20 July 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

DM, I don't know if I'm way off the mark with this but I have been thinking about it.

What if it was the kid sister who was involved in Max's death and not Rebecca?

Obviously, the kid sister was got out of the way. I absolutely agree with you on that point.

You know, that could just as well explain the crap about CPR, the hysterical phone call, the sister's fast exit and Rebecca committing suicide.

It's just a thought.

I like your thought pattern.  The strange thing to me was that, as I was reading the book, I wasn't reading it with a lot of concentration on the sister's involvement.  I have never dismissed the possibility but it was not a focus.  Yet, as Rule went into the texts between the two of them, I was taken to:   That doesn't make sense; Why would Rebecca do that?  The Z's were a close family.  I come from one and you just don't leave your kids at an airport when they are not really familiar with flying and then worry over what you have done and how they are going to make it to the gate?   The other thing I woke up this morning thinking about, (yeah, I'm crazy!) Why isn't the kid now present in any of the interviews????? The only one I've seen is the sister Mary.  Well that kid is older now and it seems to me odd that she wasn't on any of the Dr. Phil shows when she would have direct information to give.  Maybe she has been on some and I have just missed her.  The statements I have heard that she has made are just ones relayed by others, that Rebecca was not overly upset or feeling an abundance of guilt.   Has anyone else seen her making any statements?

I also agree totally she could have been the one playing with Max.  I live in a rather small, closed in neighborhood a while.  There are less than 10 kids around here and I have been amazed that the all kids that are here play with each other constantly.  The 14/15 year olds would be in the 5/6 year olds back yard playing with them on the trampoline all the time and really playing, not making fun of their abilities or bullying.  In fact, one of them who had moved, who is now 18, came back to visit me and say hi and the second place he went was to the little kids house to see them, came back reveling in how they had grown.  My point is  I think it very, very possible it could have Xarye (sp?), the sister, playing with Max!  Perhaps she thought of a good game for that stairway or my piggy-back explanation which would have given Max the extra height he needed to go over.  If X is somewhat Rebecca's size, she would be big enough to lift him to that height but would not have the weight to be secure with him which would perhaps give him the height and the velocity going over.

Just my thoughts too.


#203    Vincennes

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:22 PM

View PostCuriousLittleOne, on 20 July 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Posted Image

i cant stop thinking about it.... the door message.

i can only think of it as a last call for help, can YOU (whoever finds her, medics/friends/anyone) save her, sounds like she maybe didnt want to do it... and was hoping that someone would find her before it was too late.
i believe the whole elabourate knots and rope were to make the suicide (and i believe it was a suicide) foolproof.

"SHE (Rebecca) SAVED HIM (Max, from the pain of life/seeing her suicide, being hurt) / CAN YOU (JS) SAVE HER (Rebecca)"

on another note:


Hey, Curious!  Glad to see you here !  :su :st

I clipped some of your post just for space reasons and we all know I haven't quite gotten the hang of bringing quotes forward... So if what I brought forward seems a little odd, that's why.  Love your insight  !!!
I hadn't really concentrated on an enlargement of the note.  In looking at it now what I see is an attempt to disguise the handwriting.  The slants on the letters go two ways, forward and backhand.  in several places.  The word "CAN" looks like typical forward (that's the word that is less clear) ; however, "SAVE" looks to me backhand, especially the V. With "CAN" looking the messiest, I would be taken to looking for the writer to actually have a backhand slant.  Just preliminary thinking.  Of course, there is also the "HER."  Suicide would seem a very self-motivated action.  That makes it hard for me to figure why she would have used a third person title.

The autopsy, really INTERESTING !  I have printed out Rebecca's and I want to compare the other wounds.  Right off, I can recognize the "punctate" abrasions being on both victims.  We now know "punctate" meaning from the Z trial.  I want to compare those autopsy's for both signs of a struggle and/or drag type injuries.

Great post, glad to have you on board!!  :clap:


#204    Vincennes

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:45 PM

View PostCuriousLittleOne, on 20 July 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

THERE WAS EVIDENCE OF A STRUGGLE.... IGNORED BY POLICE INVESTIGATORS
  • There were paint splatters on her body and the noose
  • A chair was overturned in "hanging" bedroom
  • There were four contusions on her head
  • Screams reportedly heard by neighbors
  • Her arms were tied so she couldn't fight back.
  • Her legs were bound so she couldn't run away
  • There was clear plastic tape residue on her leg
  • She was gagged so she couldn't scream again
  • The noose was placed over her hair
  • A t-shirt was wrapped around the noose
  • Candleholder overturned on first floor
  • Two knives found in the "hanging" bedroom. Why 2?
  • Two paintbrushes found in the "hanging" bedroom. Why 2?
  • Abrasion on her finger
  • Blood on her body
  • Evidence of possible manual strangulation
  • Injuries inconsistent with vertical hanging
  • Her feet were caked with mud though there were not any muddy footprints inside the house
  • A message in the third person was written on the bedroom door of the crime scene. "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER" Why would a suicidal person leave a note with the words “her” and “she” instead of using “I” and “me”?
  • There were several unidentified fingerprints at the scene, Yet not everyone of interest (not living in the house) was fingerprinted. Not all of the DNA found at the scene was tested.

IMO each and every one of these points could be critical in concluding what happened.  However, there are a couple that really stand out to me. Not necessary in order of significance.
  • The tape residue on her leg  - I have read a couple of different descriptions of this.  I've never seen it was "white tape"  residue.  I've seen it described as duct tape residue.  Also, I have seen descriptions of being horizontal residue on "both legs."  Like most of the things in this case, doesn't appear that way everywhere but I think that would be very important especially, in light of the fact there was no other tape of that nature found in the house.  No roll of unused tape in the room, no empty roll of tape....No tape !
  • No other DNA found  -  I was just wondering through several of the investigation clips and found a replay of the police stating that regarding the rope around her neck.  "No other DNA on that rope,"  police were stating so proudly....  Well how did Adam cut her down and not leave some of his DNA on that rope ?????  They did take DNA from Adam immediately....so where is it?  Tell me how he could be standing on a table, cutting down a hanging body and grab the rope she was hanging from so gently, he didn't leave any DNA on it !!   Also the shirt around her neck.  He is, by his own statement, cutting her down....did he let her fall or reach out and try to catch/hold the body as a normal person would do ?? Again, no DNA  ??   Okay, then he bends over her trying to prepare to do CPR, pulls the shirt out of her mouth, per his own statement and, again, doesn't leave any DNA on the shirt or on Rebecca ????
We are having a bad storm so I have to post this or loose it......  As I said, these are not the only significant things in your list they are points that just especially bother me.


#205    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 06:17 PM

View PostAntilles, on 20 July 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Good points curious one. I'm guessing you don't think Rebecca killed herself.......

Whether it was a suicide or a murder, it all boils down to Max.

personally i do believe it was suicide, so far i have not read anything that points to a "forced entry" , i believe max's death made her even more depressed/suicidle and it tipped her over the edge (much like how im personally feeling now to be honest!)

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#206    Vincennes

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:09 PM

"Curious:  personally i do believe it was suicide, so far i have not read anything that points to a "forced entry" , i believe max's death made her even more depressed/suicide and it tipped her over the edge (much like how im personally feeling now to be honest!"

As I think I told you that is where I think I also am at with it.  However, ok, Regi, here it comes.  I am agreeing with a lot, OK? The posts Antilles and I both made regarding the sister's departure could really lean either way.  I do think it seems completed hastily.  

However, every time I get about there, I hit another snag....in that theory...."Forced entry" may not be a part of the scenario at all.  Multiple reports state that they were used to leaving their backdoor unlocked.  How about those that had keys and access??    Are they really all accounted for?  The balance of your post regarding the  similar autopsy has some interesting points.  Rebecca also had punctate injuries to her back in patterns at reoccurring distances.  What would have caused those?  The balcony rail, the stucco on the house, the tile floor of the balcony?  

I have been working on transcribing that audio from Nina, (Dina's sister) which is contained Regi's post on Pg. 2 of this thread. ....... Although Nina seems to be forthcoming I will be back with what I see in it that doesn't fit and IMO there are times Nina also seems to be diverting attention....    


#207    Vincennes

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:59 AM

Okay, guys, this is my stormy day work result.  It's a transcription of Nina's interview that Regi put in the thread on Pg. 2, I think Dec. 27, 12.

I don't know what was interviewing her and we can't seem to pull it up but whoever it is should have been on the police department.  I have always said Nina sounds truthful....then, going back through the posts again, I discovered how much information is in this audio.  First three times I heard it, I thought.  This guy should really listen up better.  He just isn't getting her answers...all the time our posts our developing things....The fourth time I heard what he was doing.  He missed his calling... What I tried to do is transcribe it...but not just as he posed the questions which now I can see are in "rounds."  He goes through some things, then distracts her a little, then goes back for another round.  If you just transcribed it as is...You get facts, distances apart.  I have identified each round of questioning by color and then put them back to the day he is questioning her on.  There are five separate rounds of questioning.

My code for the people is:

I: is the Interviewer
N: Nina
R: Rebecca
X:  Rebecca's kid sister Xayre or however you spell it
A:  Adam
D:  Dina
J: Jonah

Black is the questions information from the first round of questioning.
Blue is the second round which was the most subtle and hard to find exactly when he turned and began to re-question so I didn't get to identify 2nd round starting place...
Green is the third round
Purple is the fourth
Brown is the fifth....
Red are just my personal thoughts and comments along the way....Me, just thinkin'...

If you use these colors as you read through each day, you can see the Interviewer got more information each round and identify how many times it took him and how consistent the information was.

I began this just thinking I would just take pertinent notes or times/dates that I saw.  Then, I couldn't stop remembering Antilles saw the sister's involvement ...that I had just given passing thought to and moved on...and my shorthand took over my head.  I really tried to get every pertinent word...The change is on the first page...You can see it but I'm not going back.  Even for me, enough is enough !  I didn't change any of the wording I just moved topics up to the date they referred to.

Please read through it....Most pertinent facts are like Nixon...What did they know and when did they know it?  Dr. Howard Lubner's role and who was at Dina's house.  (The friends and that line of his questioning go back to earlier accusations that Dina had male friends there that could have assisted R in her suicide.

Okay, I got involved and worked on this most of this stormy day....I'll pay a quarter, hard cold cash to all that will look through it...I promise!
My document is attached.

Attached Files


Edited by Duncansmom, 21 July 2013 - 05:00 AM.


#208    Vincennes

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 05:10 AM

After doing this (and I hope you guys can open it)  I have to say I had really began to be much more open toward suicide...and I had been really open to Nina's audio. It seemed very truthful.  Until I broke it down.  She goes way overboard on the lack of CPR, and that being her thought way too early and she, as does the Interviewer,  becomes very distinctly distracting a couple of times.   I don't know what happened but I can see why the Zahau's are suing the Nina and Dina twins for their accusations.  I am going over the autopsy next and the punctate wounds on Rebecca.

A hard, cold cash quarter for reading...no kidding!


#209    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:51 AM

have downloaded, gotten my breakfast and will now read :tu:

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#210    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:02 AM

this new book that everyones on about......

title and author please :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

please note, the following has been "piked" from http://www.websleuth...=145758&page=38 it made me think....


Posted ImagePosted Image
Just think about it.

Case 1 Balcony Jump

1. Why tie the rope on the bottom rung of the balcony. Top rung easier and makes the required length shorter. The rope almost doubles in length on the bottom rung because you need enough rope to allow you to move around on the balcony, put the noose around your neck, tie your own hands behind your back,stand up and flip yourself over the rail to your death.

This is what they are having you believe she done from the balcony.

Case 2 Ground level jump

2. Run upstairs to the balcony tie the rope on the bottom rung drop the rope down. Run down, climb on the table put the noose on, tie your own hands behind your back jump off the table and into the wall.

Then AS walks up see RN. Call 911 reports a woman hung that appears dead. Moves the table beneath the balcony to the wall, pulls out the knife or scissors, Cuts her down to reviver her, carrier her to the grass. Don't attempt to reviver her, Move the table back on the side walk in the standing position and wait for EMT.


This is what you believe.....

Please try this. Have someone in your family to play dead and you move them from the floor to the couch just to see how hard it is to move dead weight.

And you believe he cut her down with the items in the picture above by him self.

Just look at the table. why move the table back to the walkway when it is out of the way against the wall? It does not make sense the only reason is you want it to look a certain way. Staging..

Just so many factor that points to staging...........

Edited by CuriousLittleOne, 21 July 2013 - 10:46 AM.

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