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Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide


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#31    Vincennes

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

Now, I'm going to have to go back and listen again to the aunt -  However, I just don't feel the CPR thing is of importance  - Due to the probable hysteria of the moment and what the actual nature of the injuries were possibly to his neck, brain, etc.  Even if CPR was done it might not have been effective and perhaps that's what the ambulance driver meant  -  That breathing was not re-established so he considered CPR as not really having been accomplished  -  (Maybe  ????)  Do we know what Max's injuries actually were?  Concussion - broken neck?  


I don't have any medical knowledge on what happens if the brain is not being supplied with oxygen but could there have been enough left before the process took over that Max got the word out "Ocean"  If that is the dog's name could he have been trying to say he tripped over the dog?  I think their dog was a smaller one and I know I trip over mine all the time.  Perhaps if his neck was broken trying to move him into a position CPR was possible severed what supply of oxygen he did have left and that's why he was able to get one word out and then nothing.

Edited by Duncansmom, 28 December 2012 - 02:47 PM.


#32    regi

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:27 PM

The point is that she could have lied about both...about Max having said "Ocean", and about the CPR.
From an investigative standpoint, what makes them important is whether or not she lied.


#33    Vincennes

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:28 PM

I did go back over some things and I do notice something that seems a little off -  On the description of the scene portion of the Report Achilles posted re Rebecca.  They start by a brief description of the guest house as being two bedroom.  "One bedroom with a suitcase in it"  Then it switches to what seems to be the - other - bedroonm of the guest house and that it's bed is unmade ..... and contains several articles of woman's clothing, make remover towelette.... etc.  and a glass of clear fluid on the nightstand...  It seems like the switch talking about the guest house and go on to what I am assuming is Rebecca's room in the main house all in one swoop with no distinction being made of the location.  It ends up reading like the room in the guest house assigned to the brother in law had not been slept in... with the other room containing woman's clothing.....  

That seems like quite an oversite not to specificaally indicate which room in which location they are describing ...... Has something been cut out of the document ??????

Yes, Regi, I agree totally, you are right, after rereading, the point does seem she lied  ....

Edited by Duncansmom, 28 December 2012 - 04:31 PM.


#34    Vincennes

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:48 PM

Achilles, I don't know where you found those reports.  They add a alot.  However, I was wondering if you might be able to find another from a "Dr. Lucas"  Rebecca's report mentions the other gives a more total scene description of the room she is to have jumped from.  My specific question is, where is the rest of the tape she was bound with? Now here I am assuming it was orange tape which is the first way it is referred to because later in the report it says that they found she could have removed her hands from the "rope" she was bound with and then reinserted behind her back.  Orange tape or orange rope ?  Where is the rest?  Where are the scissors she certainly would have needed to assemble this self-administered binding.  Where was she when she assembled it?  In the bedroom or on the balcony itself.  The report says there is only one or two sets of her footprints on the "dirty" balcony floor.  I don't mean to be irreverent but if she bound her legs in the bedroom did she then hop out to the balcony doing it in one hop so there is only one set of prints ..... or did she manage to bind her legs up while on the balcony and while doing so managed to do it without moving her feet round in the "dirt"  .... then there would be some remnants scissors, tape,( or even an emply roll for the tape providing she used it all) that would be left on the balcony itself..... I know when I work with duct tape it never comes out that exact - and doing so while being upset enough to commit suicide ??  I would have ended up with my hair and one hand taped to the bed inside the room..


#35    regi

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

Duncansmom, there's lots of info. at this link, including a doc. containing info from Dr. Lucas.

http://www.sdsheriff...nado/index.html


#36    Vincennes

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:45 PM

www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max...

Thanks Regi, I did go over and read that entire site.  I do see that it includes knives of the floor of the bedroom that could have been used to cut the rope  (rather than tape as was initially reported her binding...)  and also what looks like a plastic garbage bag.  However, I couldn't find any mention of what, if anything, was in the bagor what prints were on it.  One of the reports mentioned that they found tape-like residue half way up her calf.  That's a question.  Did she try binding herself with tape first?  Then, finding it not working for some reason take it off, where is it. I don't run around during the day with tape residue on my legs.  

I will go back to my earlier post's questions though because for some reason they are very specific regarding the footprints on the balcony.   They even say in the report she bound herself in the bedroom - I would presume on the bed or on the floor and ended up with one set of prints on the balcony  -  A hop while bound ?  If not a hop, then she would have to position the feet while on the balcony and that would end up with more than one set of prints.  You would be balancing and moving around to do that.  

I did get to Max's autopsy report.  Although it is a PDF file and I had trouble opening in and copying the link here.  It gives A LOT more detail regarding the CPR statements that were initially made.  (You were right, right, right.  There is a lie here for sure!)The autopsy gives more details of the CPR   ????  




#37    Vincennes

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:11 PM

http://www.dailymail...6-murdered.html

This article is interesting and I keep doing double posts here because I'm having trouble getting the links copied.

I did'nt realize until the last link you posted Regi, that Jonah S. has also requested a reexamination of the events and was also refused.


#38    Vincennes

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:04 AM

Okay, now I have been doing this all day Achilles, and Regi, forgive me my third post  but please please listen to this:

http://www.blogtalkr...-dr-cyril-wecht

Sorry, I've just been reading and finding all day


#39    Vincennes

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:36 AM

View PostDuncansmom, on 29 December 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

Okay, now I have been doing this all day Achilles, and Regi, forgive me my third post  but please please listen to this:

http://www.blogtalkr...-dr-cyril-wecht

Sorry, I've just been reading and finding all day
http://www.blogtalkr...-dr-cyril-wecht


#40    Antilles

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:43 AM

I'm gonna have another chat about the CPR because I think it's important. I'm certain that the boy's death is the catalyst for Zahau's death. 2 days after he dies, she dies. I don't believe in coincidence.

The child apparently regains consciousness long enough to say 'ocean' and that's it. But according to the doctor, he hadn't had any O2 to his brain for a long time. I find the 'ocean' interesting. He didn't say that in front of the paramedics (correct me if I'm wrong) so we only have the 2 women's word for that. I am trained for CPR and I do my yearly updates so I'm finding this aspect a bit strange. If a patient regains consciousness you put them in the recovery position and for the child to wake up enough to speak that means that mouth to mouth must have been given as well as chest compressions. But the EMS and the doctor discount this.

See, the child's death can go either way - it can account for suicide and it could account for murder.

Posted Image


Posted Image

If you want the larger images, check out the link above.

And about his death. He was what? 7? He doesn't look to be that big of a kid. That's a hell of a lot of damage for that kid to have done. And trying to ride a skateboard down those banisters? Maybe he did, I wasn't there but it just seems a bit fishy to me.


#41    regi

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:44 PM

View PostDuncansmom, on 29 December 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

please please listen to this:

http://www.blogtalkr...-dr-cyril-wecht


I listened, and I'm not impressed.

In my opinion, Wecht appears to have gone the way of Spitz and to me, he made many, many comments I found inappropriate. He admitted there was information he hadn't reviewed because he apparently wasn't provided with it, and he had questions of his own regarding pertinent information.
Overall, I found his entire approach unprofessional.

I heard many questions about this, that, and the other, but heard nothing of a plausible scenario supporting homicide.

The uncle staying in the guesthouse was mentioned (and I don't recall if this is documented anywhere else and to me it doesn't really matter) but during his polygraph session, it was revealed that he'd viewed porn on his phone shortly before finding Zahau hanging.
My take on that is if that's what he told authorities, then he was forthcoming. I see no other conclusion.
(BTW, have I ever mentioned how sick to death I am about a polygraph being referred to as a "lie detector"? Please get with it, people! There's no such thing, and to others who know better, you don't come across as particularly knowledgeable and/or professional when you refer to it that way.)

I don't have any other comments about that radio show except that if it was homicide, then all those questions put together should paint another picture... and they don't.

Edited by regi, 29 December 2012 - 01:46 PM.


#42    Vincennes

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:10 PM

I think the autopsy report on Max gives some interesting information regarding the CPR  It seems there was alot more said about it at the time than just "yes CPR was started"  I thought maybe she had come up with that because she realized after the paramedics asked her if it was started she realized that she should have and tried to make it sound like she was proactive. Yet when the first responders described the scene he indicated Rebecca was holding Max, crying and screaming his name.  Well that doesn't sound like CPR to me.  If she had started it, why did she stop?  I also agree if the child did say the word "Ocean"  What made her go to CPR and not a Recovery Position.

I disagree, however, regarding Dr. Wecht.  I don't think his role was to set every thing up for a possible homicide.  I see his role as just going over the body again and determining if the wounds were consistent with the suicide scenario.  Just that.  He did found threeor four wounds on the top of her head that were not consistent with the suicide description.  Unless the rope acted as a bungi cord those wounds are unexplained.  He also stated they were significant enough to have caused possible unconsciousness prior to her death.

I also read along the way that the brotherinlaw was looking at porn soon after arrival and I did find another description of the guest house that indicated there was female clothing in one of the rooms.  A pair of panties in  trash that was never even collected by the police.

Again, why tape residue on her calf with no tape present.  She was going for a tidy suicide and disposed of it ?  What was in the plastic bag -  empty?  Its not addressed.

Blood is another question.  There were a few drops in the bathroom and a few on balcony and again on her legs as she was found hanging.  The police stated they believed it was menses.  No blood in the bedroom on the floor or bed where she tied herself up while naked?

Edited by Duncansmom, 29 December 2012 - 03:00 PM.


#43    regi

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:11 PM

Re: Wecht, my comments had nothing to do with his "role", but that he was ill-informed, and I didn't care for his accusations, especially in view of that fact that he admitted that he hadn't reviewed all the circumstances/information of the death.
I think he was over-stepping.
Re: other injuries, he offered his opinion based on his impressions, and the info. he did have to go on.

According to info at one of those links I provided, the panties were collected- as everything considered even possibly associated- but they weren't tested, and the reason offered was that the body itself was examined and there was no evidence of assault, and also, there was another explanation for the other items collected from that guest bedroom.

Re: the brother-in-law's porn viewing, what does that have to do with anything?

Re: what appeared to be tape residue, those are relatively small measurements. If I wrote them correctly... left shin: 1 x 5/8, and 1/4x3/8. Lateral distal right lower leg: 1 1/4 x 5/8, and 3/16 x 5/16.
I don't make anything out of it.

Re: the bag, I'm sure investigators have formed an impression about why it was (or likely why it was) present.

Re: spots of blood, it was Zahau's, and I'm not aware of any associated injuries.


Since you found the aunt very credible- and there's no doubt that her movements were easily verified- don't you wonder why Zahau never responded to her, yet did respond to her own sister?


My immediate question- actually, the only question I can think of- has to do with Max's case, and whether or not the sister who was also in the house ever gave a statement.

Edited by regi, 29 December 2012 - 04:15 PM.


#44    regi

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

View PostAntilles, on 29 December 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:


And about his death. He was what? 7? He doesn't look to be that big of a kid. That's a hell of a lot of damage for that kid to have done. And trying to ride a skateboard down those banisters? Maybe he did, I wasn't there but it just seems a bit fishy to me.

Antilles, I saw it on the EMS report that Max had turned six a month previous.
Also, there was no skateboard... it was a scooter.
Re: the scooter, I have a problem with the notion that it went over the railing....WITH Max.
That strikes me as very odd.


#45    Vincennes

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:30 AM

I'm sorry you are all giving your age up or lack of grand kids that age -  It is a "Razor" Skateboard.... That is a speciific design of skateboard but it is still a skateboard it it not a "Scooter"  Are you thinking the kid is accused of trying to stand up and ride a "Skooter"  down the banister railing... No... A Razor skateboard could be turned to the side and Max might have envisioned the two wheels still in position which would have given him a board width to ride down on the stairway...  

And sorry Regi... Dr. Wecht's role is medical, he is not a detective... And he was going from the first autopsy.  If the information is not on the first autopsy then that is a part of the problem or at least identifies areas of injury that still need to be examined. That is what he was there to seek out.


The plastic bag that goes all but unmentioned... I'm sure that was fine too.  


I have also brought up the tape residue on Rebecca's calf several time:  however

"Re: what appeared to be tape residue, those are relatively small measurements. If I wrote them correctly... left shin: 1 x 5/8, and 1/4x3/8. Lateral distal right lower leg: 1 1/4 x 5/8, and 3/16 x 5/16."

"I don't make anything out of it.""

I don't make anything out of it.

Okie dokie,  Case closed why are we reading this ???  Just a minute let me go peel the tape residue off my calf and I will be right with you.
I don't make anything out of it.

You all be good now.

Edited by Duncansmom, 30 December 2012 - 03:33 AM.





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