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Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide


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#46    regi

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:44 PM

Duncansmom, you've asked for opinions and I gave you mine, and you don't seem to understand why I've said the things I have.

I've seen the "riding toy" and in my book, it's a scooter because it has handlebars which to me, differentiates it from a skateboard.
Maybe I'm old school- I don't know- but whatever you want to call the thing, it's bottom heavy (even though it's a "Razor"...a "state of the art design", it's still bottom heavy) and the hallway had thick carpeting and the Razor has little wheels.
I Just don't see Max going over the railing with the scooter. I don't see that happening and that's just my take on it. It doesn't mean it didn't happen...I just don't see it happening. What more can I say about it?

Another problem I have is that there's nicks in the rail and paint chips on the carpeting below- which of course, indicate that that's precisely what did happen.
Since that evidence is there, then that HAS to be what happened, right?????
(BTW, why was the scooter on the second floor anyway, and especially if there was a problem with him riding it there?
Have you ever been curious enough to have wondered that?)

Rebecca said she found Max unresponsive, but that he regained consciousness long enough to whisper "Ocean".
If that sits well with you, then what can I say? It doesn't sit well with me, so end of story there, too.

I know who Dr. Wecht is and what he does, and why he was obtained by Zahau's family, but he said on the radio show that he didn't have all the information and he asked questions- the answers of which he needed for an informed opinion.
Re: the scalp hemorrhages (in the autopsy report, all described as on the "right", to say on the "top" offers an entirely wrong impression), he said this was possible, or that was possible. He noted a lack of this or that re: the neck injuries...but the bottom line is that- according to what he said, he would have determined the death "undetermined".
To me, that's not taking into account the ALL the circumstances of death.

Our approach is completely different. I saw that early on.
You look to the plastic bag and find it suspicious because you don't know why it was there. Well, just because YOU don't know, doesn't mean that it actually is suspicious.

Re: the tape residue, I just don't find it suspicious. In fact, her own sister had stitches the very day of the incident involving Max from apparently cleaning up the chandelier.
(When the investigator was collecting evidence from that incident, pieces of the chandelier were retrieved from in the garbage.)
The thing is, there's no evidence to suggest anything sinister about that apparent tape residue. You'll have to explain to me what's suspicious about it.

You said that the brother-in-law (he actually wasn't a brother-in-law because Zahau wasn't married to his brother) was looking at porn. You never explained to me what was suspicious about that.

You questioned blood drops that the police said were menses. Well, the police were going off the autopsy report which stated that there was "blood within the vagina and around the cervix. but no visible trauma."
You're ignoring a sound explanation, and insist on finding some other sinister explanation which doesn't exist.

Yeah, okie dokie seems to surfice.

Edited by regi, 30 December 2012 - 03:58 PM.


#47    Vincennes

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

I'm sorry, although we do differ on a couple of issues, I don't seem to have clearly explained myself.  None of it "sits well with me" either, I just like to look at the possibles and then dismiss.

I did think it possible the kid went to go down the railing using a scooter/skateboard or whatever and fell over.... but you know since last night one other thing came to me that I would have to dispute that happening.  I remember clearly going down my grandmother's banister.  She was not fond of it but we never really got into any "trouble"  just "stop that."  Her stairway, although not as grand as the one Max had,  did turn as it went up in exactly the same way.... What came to me last night is that you didn't start at the top, second floor of the railing.  If you look at the length proportions, as I am sure Max would have done, from the second floor to the turn is actually not only high but it is a pretty short distance for the ride.  We always started after the turn from the landing.... That gives you a longer "ride."  The sections are not equal.  So to me now, if I explain my thoughts any kid would realize this.  You start at the turn landing.  He might have fallen from there true but from there I don't see how he would have gone into the chandelier.  He would have been under it even at the top of the slide.

Now, as for him muttering "Ocean" It doesn't sit well with me either especially in view of the fact that she was lying regarding the CPR but I don't know how long it takes the brain to die when deprived of oxygen.   As I said I have a small dog and trip over him all the time.  If Max had time for one word... and that is a big if.... could he have been running toward the stairs, and was trying to say the dog tripped him....& I mean that is just an IF  

I do see the tape as a bigger issue.  There no indication there is a cut or abrasion on the calf... It is a clear enough residue that they were able to measure it... Another IF  for me... If someone tried to bind her with tape and then saw it was not working they went to binding her with a rope...   Just IF

My question regarding the plastic bag is, "Why isn't it mentioned in the report.  According to the photos,it was on top of at least a portion of the knife handles...   My question with it is "why isn't it addressed clearly in the police report?" It just seems to me to be lack of throughness on the part of police.

I am not ignoring the police explaination of menses.  My question regarding the blood is that, if she was bleeding so heavily she was dropping blood on the floor of the bath and balcony yet she obviously had to sit at least for a minute to bind herself so totally and nothing in the bedroom? Doesn't make sense to me.  Could it be she was unconscious and lying in a prone position?  Then when she was raised to a vertical angle to go over the balcony the bleeding commensed to flow?

The head injuries:  Either on right side or top.. I don't see a big difference.  I believe Dr. Wecht said he maybe even could understand one but three or four? and these wounds indicate a rounded instrument.  If she went over the balcony vertically she might have even impacted her head once... but three times?  And rounded indicates it could not have been the balcony or balcony railing which they said was pretty jagged.  Also, if you look at her distance from the balcony.. she was hanging down pretty low only about 2 to 3 ft. from the ground.... How did she hit her head three times?  To me, only a bungi cord would have produced that effect.  So if remains to my an another big IF

Lastly, I read around sites last night and came across the theory that Max's injuries could stem from a beating and that he could have been thrown over railing.  I believe that theory is touched on in the the 2nd autopy Max's mother had done.  The question is then asked, could Rebecca have seen what happened, was afraid to tell it which is why she was so extremely evasive when the aunt arrived.  In that light I did find one site that talked about Jonah having some odd business dealings during that time that showed some distress.  He sold a good deal of stock and put another amount in a trust for the children?  I'm not there, I just saw that theory raised.

Another thing I just came across this morning is that as of this Sept. 2012... The police Md. refused to turn over Max's autopsy pictures to his mother, she had filed a law suit to get them.  She was not requesting any financial award simply her son's autopsy photos,  Now I do find that one bizarre o the part of the police.  Dr. Wecht: Undetermined death ... I still think that he is correct in asking for that change.  All three of the parties involved, Rebecca's parents, Max's mother and Jonah have asked that this investigation be reopened.  To do so requires the label of suicide be changed. Undetermined is the first step in at least allowing more investigation.

Edited by Duncansmom, 30 December 2012 - 06:30 PM.


#48    Antilles

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:15 AM

DM, you did start this thread and you asked for people's opinions. I'm not sure what to make of your okie dokie reply. Either you want to discuss it or you don't and if you don't want to discuss the case with me, then that's fine too. Maybe I am just too old to appreciate your difference between a scooter and a skateboard. Either way, the damn thing wasn't gonna go down those bannisters no matter how the child lay on it. And if he's lying on it on the top banister, I just don't see how he could manage enough force to reach out and grab the chandelier. If he was going perpendicular to the chandelier as he went down the banister he would have gone straight down. If you look at the reconstruction photos, he's taken a flying jump off the top flight, far enough out to grab the chandelier. Whatever happened, his death is the catalyst for Zahau's death 2 days later.


#49    Vincennes

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:01 PM

I totally agree with what you have said regarding the bannister.  All I have been trying to do is bring up possibilities... not that I actually agree with any of them.  I did go back and count the steps.  Like my grandmother's banister.  I get 7 (one you can't see I think) and 11 from the landing to the first floor.  If you start at the top you get the post at the turn in your back.  From the landing you have that frolicking turn for a dismount....... And starting at the landing puts you under the chandelier.

I also don't think much of that picture/drawing of the figure going over.  For one thing there are no heights indicated.  As Regi said once, this looks like a pretty small kid.  If he were just running, tripped over the dog or the skateboard to me it would seem you would have to know heights before you could assume he went over that way and it makes me wonder why whoever drew that didn't add those facts.

My question about the plastic bag still stands.  I think it is strange it wasn't addressed in the police reports.  It's numbered.  Regi doesn't feel this has significance.  I think the things that aren't addressed remain questions.  Antilles, what do you think?  

I was also pondering the things that are not addressed and answered and I came up with, "Why is the painted message blocked out of the report."  I did find that was Rebecca's ex-husband when interviewed who supposedly had been shown the message and he is the one that indicated it said something like, She saved you, Now can you save her?"  If that is the quote and there wasn't anyone's name in it, why is it blocked out?  The exhusband did go on to say it did not look like any writing of Rebecca's he ever seen her use.  It was a block form of printing.  Is it somekind of standard police practice to block messages out?

Edited by Duncansmom, 31 December 2012 - 03:12 PM.


#50    regi

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:51 PM

I agree with your observations in your above post, Antilles.
Have you seen the photo of the damage to the banister? I don't recall where I saw it, but I'll try to find it if you haven't.
I don't know if there was damage to any other area of the banister, but what I saw consisted of gouges and chips, and they were located on the second floor railing which runs parallel to the landing that's between the two floors. The damage was on the HALLWAY side on the corner post and on the hallway side top side edge of the railing. So obviously, that indicates that that's where the bulk of the scooter made impact with the banister.
Now, I don't have reason to doubt that it was the scooter that caused that damage, but it has to be explained to me WHY the scooter made that kind of impact- that is, how that could be possible- and at that location.

From a responding officer Erhard's report: (I'll try to find links for this, and the information which follows.
..."A 'Razor' type scooter with the rear wheel and rear one third portion of the footplate lying across his lower right shin... Zahau "found Max unresponsive but was later not sure if he had been lying on his back or if she turned him over. She heard Max say the dog's name 'Ocean'. He became unresponsive. She gave a few rescue breaths and yelled for Xena who then called 9-1-1 at 1010 hours...arrived on scene at 1012 hours."

From Rady Children's Hospital medical records..."CPR was reportedly started by Max's father's girlfriend. Upon paramedics arrival, CPR was continued."

From investigator's report: Dr. Brad Peterson, head of the ICU Trauma informed that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of the cardiac arrest suffered by Shacknai.
Based on the description of the incident surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall."

More than anything, (to me) the fact that that doctor could and did express such an opinion demonstrates how unlikely it was that Max could have been capable of speaking, much less in a manner with apparent comprehension.
According to Max's aunt, the ME expressed the same opinion.

According call logs, Zahau received a call July 12 from Coronado police det. Thomas Atkins, who was investigating Max Shacknai's fall.
http://www.760kfmb.c...u-phone-records


#51    Vincennes

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:38 AM

Again, please I didn't bring up anything to prove or  be married to facts which are disproved.  Sorry really but to me even now our quandries regarding the facts uplift dr. Wechts'position there are enough questions here this should not be classified  as a Suicide... but as an "Undetermined" Death.... It does need to be examined further.

A medical examiner will not and can not determine the results of that further examinatio only that there are enouth questions to bring it forward.

Only my thoughts.....

I am obviously out of my league here with my posts and my questions.

No Okie...  I am   don Regi  You Discuss What You Feel is Relevant

Edited by Duncansmom, 01 January 2013 - 12:59 AM.


#52    Antilles

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:07 AM

DM I've just come on line and missed your posts.

I agree with you that the plastic bag not being addressed is strange. But what about the knives and the paint brushes? I mean, what were they all doing there in the bedroom? And the way the rope is tied seems to me not  something that I would expect a 26 year old woman to do. And how did she go over the railing? Did she jump in which case you'd expect her to almost take her head off. Did she climb over and as gently as possible let her self down? And, to be honest, it seems a strange choice as a way to kill yourself but then I guess to each their own.

Don't get stressed about your post. It's OK. :yes:

Come back in your own time if you want and we can discuss the case further.


#53    regi

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:02 PM

View PostDuncansmom, on 30 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

I'm sorry, although we do differ on a couple of issues, I don't seem to have clearly explained myself.  None of it "sits well with me" either, I just like to look at the possibles and then dismiss.

I do see the tape as a bigger issue.  There no indication there is a cut or abrasion on the calf... It is a clear enough residue that they were able to measure it... Another IF  for me... If someone tried to bind her with tape and then saw it was not working they went to binding her with a rope...   Just IF

My question regarding the plastic bag is, "Why isn't it mentioned in the report.  According to the photos,it was on top of at least a portion of the knife handles...   My question with it is "why isn't it addressed clearly in the police report?" It just seems to me to be lack of throughness on the part of police.

I am not ignoring the police explaination of menses.  My question regarding the blood is that, if she was bleeding so heavily she was dropping blood on the floor of the bath and balcony yet she obviously had to sit at least for a minute to bind herself so totally and nothing in the bedroom? Doesn't make sense to me.  Could it be she was unconscious and lying in a prone position?  Then when she was raised to a vertical angle to go over the balcony the bleeding commensed to flow?

The head injuries:  Either on right side or top.. I don't see a big difference.  I believe Dr. Wecht said he maybe even could understand one but three or four? and these wounds indicate a rounded instrument.  If she went over the balcony vertically she might have even impacted her head once... but three times?  And rounded indicates it could not have been the balcony or balcony railing which they said was pretty jagged.  Also, if you look at her distance from the balcony.. she was hanging down pretty low only about 2 to 3 ft. from the ground.... How did she hit her head three times?  To me, only a bungi cord would have produced that effect.  So if remains to my an another big IF

Duncansmom, first, it was your sarcasm that rubbed me the wrong way.

Re: the apparent tape residue, 1) it's small, separate measurements, 2) the orientation (and I think location) is not what one would expect to find if there had been an attempt to have used tape as any kind of binding 3) there's no similar residue noted elsewhere on the body 4) there was no tape found at the scene, 5) Zahau's sister had a laceration serious enough to require stitches- apparently from the chandelier, and Zahau was found next to Max and with broken chandelier covering the floor, so there's a plausible explanation for why Zahau might have used bandages. Bandages could have been used simply to stop bleeding for a tiny cut/puncture which apparently was so minor, it wasn't visible to the pathologist at autopsy.

Re: the plastic bag, everything at a crime scene is collected and the documentation includes assigning it a number. It might turn out to not even be associated with the incident/crime. I haven't seen a police or lab report, so I don't know what authorities came to think about the bag.

Re: the blood drops, you said "if she was bleeding so heavily". Well, obviously, it was heavy, was it?
How do you explain blood noted in the vagina and around the cervix?

Re: Dr. Wecht, he didn't have all the information and he asked questions about the circumstances and facts. An informed opinion isn't possible without considering all the facts and circumstances.
In any case, a pathologist coming on later is at a huge disadvantage for many reasons, but still, he didn't have information I think was necessary.

Edited by regi, 01 January 2013 - 03:05 PM.


#54    Antilles

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:04 AM

The plastic bag. regi could be right - it could have been brought by the cops or CSI to put evidence in. But then why would they leave it there to be photographed?
I think I have the answer - that's what Zahau carried the rope in when she brought it into the bedroom.


#55    regi

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:09 PM

Antilles, when I said "it" might not be related to the incident, I was speaking in general- not about the bag, and I don't know why the heck I added that additional, unrelated info. because I see how that comes across and I would have interpreted it the same way. Sorry.
Anyway, I'm sure investigators didn't bring the bag to the scene, but I am sure they determined where the bag came from/purpose of the bag.


Correction:
In my post #53, re: the bleeding, I meant to say "...obviously, it WASN'T heavy..."
(And what makes that obvious is because it WASN'T all over the place!)


#56    ouija ouija

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:24 AM

Hi Duncansmom! I'm coming rather late to this, I only stumbled across it yesterday. Since then I've been following all the links and wondering what the truth is. To me it seems so obvious that Rebecca did not commit suicide, for all the reasons you have mentioned. I think it was Adam, Max's uncle, who murdered her. Money talks and that is how he is getting away with it .......... so far. I think it's a case of Max's family 'ganging up' on the 'outsider', putting the blame for the death on her(before anything was proved either way), and meting out their own 'justice' .... fuelled by the ex-wife's jealousy.

My theory is that she never was hanging. I think the brother, Adam, killed her, left her on the ground(where she was first seen by the detectives), cut the rope with the knife and then tied the free piece to the bed and threw the frayed end over the balcony. In the link below one of the comments at the end of the article expresses the same idea. (The article itself isn't particularly interesting, but I enjoyed the comments after it.)  

http://coronado.patc...s-fatal-friends

Thanks for posting :)

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#57    ouija ouija

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:57 AM

View Postregi, on 24 December 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

The big picture is that if there's no evidence of any kind which points to anyone else involved in the death- and taking into account all the evidence that IS there, and that it points to only Zahau- then it's an obvious conclusion.
I found this to be an extraordinary comment! There's plenty to suggest someone other than Zahau ended her life.

View Postregi, on 29 December 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

The uncle staying in the guesthouse was mentioned (and I don't recall if this is documented anywhere else and to me it doesn't really matter) but during his polygraph session, it was revealed that he'd viewed porn on his phone shortly before finding Zahau hanging.
My take on that is if that's what he told authorities, then he was forthcoming. I see no other conclusion.
You don't make a connection between him being in an excited state and him being the person to find a bound, naked woman lying on the property?
You 'see no other conclusion' but are you open to there being another one? :)


View Postregi, on 29 December 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:


According to info at one of those links I provided, the panties were collected- as everything considered even possibly associated- but they weren't tested, and the reason offered was that the body itself was examined and there was no evidence of assault, and also, there was another explanation for the other items collected from that guest bedroom.

Re: the brother-in-law's porn viewing, what does that have to do with anything?

Shouldn't the panties have been tested to establish whose they were? And whether or not there was any of Adam's DNA on them? 'No evidence of assault' but was there evidence of intercourse ....... either before or after her death? Maybe Adam had been watching porn(couldn't deny it because it would show up on phone records), and this prompted him to see if Rebecca would have intercourse with him, Jonas being at the hospital with his son. She refused him and he killed her ....... plausible?
The porn viewing is important because presumably the time it was viewed would be recorded, which might have been seen as an alibi by him, although obviously there would be nothing to stop him leaving the porn running on the phone while he was elsewhere killing Rebecca.

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#58    regi

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:53 PM

Everything I know about the evidence points to suicide.

I see no reason to be open to another conclusion re: the porn viewing. I don't know what his state was. He'd viewed porn on his cell phone, and it's not an atypical event, and it's certainly not evidence of murder whether there were a dozen naked women hanging from the balcony.
The evidence shows he was faced with the trauma of coming upon a suicide, and you've accused the man of murder without a shred of evidence. (And then you question my conclusions?!)

Re: the panties, I don't know that they weren't identified by the owner of the other items collected from the guestroom.

Re: intercourse, I have no knowledge that any evidence of intercourse was collected, and since there was no evidence of sexual assault, then it's reasonable to assume that there also wasn't evidence of intercourse because that would be some of the same evidence.


#59    ouija ouija

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

View Postregi, on 19 January 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

Everything I know about the evidence points to suicide.

I see no reason to be open to another conclusion re: the porn viewing. I don't know what his state was. He'd viewed porn on his cell phone, and it's not an atypical event, and it's certainly not evidence of murder whether there were a dozen naked women hanging from the balcony.
The evidence shows he was faced with the trauma of coming upon a suicide, and you've accused the man of murder without a shred of evidence. (And then you question my conclusions?!)

Re: the panties, I don't know that they weren't identified by the owner of the other items collected from the guestroom.

Re: intercourse, I have no knowledge that any evidence of intercourse was collected, and since there was no evidence of sexual assault, then it's reasonable to assume that there also wasn't evidence of intercourse because that would be some of the same evidence.
I'm suggesting that Rebecca's family are right in pressing for the case to be looked at again as the case for suicide is so flimsy and the case for Adam having murdered her is pretty convincing(not just to me. See the comments on the link in post #56).

The type of porn Adam was watching could be important. If it was portraying 'breathplay' i.e. limited choking, I think that would be pretty significant. Perhaps the pair of them decided to indulge in breathplay together and he accidently/intentionally took things too far ....... either way he killed her. Perhaps she did not agree, but he wanted to suggest to police that it was 'sex play gone wrong' .... in at least one of the links I read it would appear that occasionally in scenarios like this the coroner(?) will give cause of death as suicide 'to protect the parents of the dead woman'. Never mind that the man has got away with killing someone(possibly intentionally)!

The other thing that seems too much of a coincidence is that Adam is a tugboat captain. So, is he or is Rebecca most likely to be familiar with knotting ropes so that they can be loosened and tightened again easily? I think it's likely that he used those specific knots to give the impression that it was physically possible for Rebecca to have tied them(although mindbogglingly difficult even so, plus, we still don't have an explanation as to how she tipped herself over the balcony whilst already tied up!).

Also(and I have to find the link to the pictures and check this), as the body fell over the balcony(allegedly), wouldn't it yank the bed towards the balcony slightly? I have an idea that there is no indication of this on the carpet around the leg of the bed where the rope is tied.

Regarding your last sentence: the evidence for a sexual assault would not necessarily be the same as for sexual intercourse. I prefer not to go into detail about that ...... please use your imagination. (Was the blood actually proved to be menses? Even if it was she could still have been assaulted too).

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#60    regi

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:09 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 24 January 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Regarding your last sentence: the evidence for a sexual assault would not necessarily be the same as for sexual intercourse. I prefer not to go into detail about that ...... please use your imagination. (Was the blood actually proved to be menses? Even if it was she could still have been assaulted too).

I didn't say it would be the same evidence...I said it would be SOME of the same.
Re: whether menses was proven, there was no injury....

Re: the rest of your post, all I can think to comment is if you based what you think on facts, then you wouldn't have to speculate.





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