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#16    blind pew

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:46 AM

View PostC235, on 25 December 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Are you trying to negotiate? :blink:
You cant negotiate with something that doesnt exist


#17    C235

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:50 AM

View Postblind pew, on 26 December 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

You cant negotiate with something that doesnt exist

You aren't totally wrong you know. Something beyond existence he is :)

Edited by C235, 26 December 2012 - 04:51 AM.


#18    Goddess_Lilith

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:41 AM

I think the question is not how God rationalizes things but how do you personally rationalize believing in such a sadistic God and if you want to argue him being sadistic, go read your bible first please then come back and we'll see if you still want to say he isn't.


#19    Paranoid Android

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:10 AM

View Postblind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.
If God exists, then he created everything, including the world we live in.  One could argue that if this is the case then he has already given you a great deal.  You want more, I guess?

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#20    Rlyeh

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:39 AM

View PostJor-el, on 25 December 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

When you steal, you deprive someone of their hard earned money and wealth, when you kill, you deprive someone of their family, when you abuse or molest, you are hurting not only them but their family.... in all of that, who is the guilty party? You or God?

If you give money or clothing to those who are in need, if you save someone from certain death, if you prevent abuse or molestation, who is the hero, You or God?

God has given us the ability to determine whether we are agents of good or evil, are you an agent for or against entropy, are you a builder or a destroyer?

Don't blame God for what others do, or fail to do. You cannot blame him for those acts or lack of them, if blame is to be placed it is on the author of those acts, whether they be good or bad.

Do you blame Alfred Nobel for all the wars and deaths his inventions have caused?

The creator is not responsible for what others do with his invention. You do not blame Henry Ford for the fact that a drunk driver killed a member of your family on a DUI.

The rules were laid down from the beginning, you live in a deterministic universe, where all things are predetermined, like a universal domino effect. There is only one thing that is not determined, your choices and their effect on the world



#21    Jor-el

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:36 PM

View Postblind pew, on 26 December 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

How can you prevent something you cant foresee? God is supposed to be able to know things before they happen right? Dont you think if somebody could have prevented that shooting at sandy hook they would have? Give me a break

Let me ask you a question, what diferentiates the USA from the rest of the world?

We don't own guns as a God given right. If one counts the number of Mass killings by lone gunmen in the USA vs the entire rest of the world, you'll be surprised to know that stuff like that is very, very rare anywhere but in the USA.

So one doesn't have to foresee the future to prevent this from happening, we simply don't allow guns to exist in the hands of anybody but the military and Police force.

Portugal is an example. It is almost impossible to own a gun here and certainly nothing above 6,35mm calibre, and you need a damned good reason to own one. Self defense is not a good reason. Even a DUI will be enough to permenantly revoke that license.

As I said earlier, our choices, decisions and acts influence the world around us, but on a larger scale, so do the choices of countries affect their own citizens.

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#22    Mr Walker

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

View PostSean93, on 25 December 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Not every single person killed on Gods' command were Nephlim, there are plenty of people who were human. I think everyone needs to accept that God/Yahweh has done some things that are bad and unfair and that were only written into the bible because the zeitgeist of the time allowed it. Take a look at the laws of Leviticus and tell me that the zeitgeist/laws of today wold agree with these, that they would be implemented into the fabric of society an treated as just and moral.

Yahweh may be real, and I acknowledge the fact that if he is real, that I am hammered if his laws are anything to go by...as are most if not all of us.

I often wonder: If the bible had been written today if Jesus' ministry had begun today, would books like Leviticus and the stories of death and other horrible acts still be in it? I doubt it because otherwise, the educated and sensible people would instantly say "Go **** yourself with that madness".
What, like all the educated sensible people in nazi germany, soviet russia, china, mexico, syria, egypt? Well basically any modern trouble spot really. northern ireland a few  decades back; the balkans  a decade ago.

God or no god, people have the abilty to know right from wrong and chose one or the other. Eveyone of us must make that choice every day in our life. Luckilly, for most of us it doesnt involve life or death. Women are still killed for refusing to marry their parent's choice, for dishonouring their men folk by immodest dres.s Gay people are still killed around the world There are more humans in slavery now than at the height of the atlantic slave trade. Often the perpetrators are educated and sensible. They just have differnt values from most of us Some of my  fellow australians feel i am a barbaric criminal because I eat meat and allow animals to be killed to feed me. Many peole call japanese the same for killing and eating whales.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#23    Jor-el

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 26 December 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:




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Interesting, Gods will is done anyway, by the hands of an angel.

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#24    Sean93

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 26 December 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

What, like all the educated sensible people in nazi germany, soviet russia, china, mexico, syria, egypt? Well basically any modern trouble spot really. northern ireland a few  decades back; the balkans  a decade ago.

God or no god, people have the abilty to know right from wrong and chose one or the other. Eveyone of us must make that choice every day in our life. Luckilly, for most of us it doesnt involve life or death. Women are still killed for refusing to marry their parent's choice, for dishonouring their men folk by immodest dres.s Gay people are still killed around the world There are more humans in slavery now than at the height of the atlantic slave trade. Often the perpetrators are educated and sensible. They just have differnt values from most of us Some of my  fellow australians feel i am a barbaric criminal because I eat meat and allow animals to be killed to feed me. Many peole call japanese the same for killing and eating whales.

You think that all modern troubles are punishable by the absurdities in Leviticus? It' also important to note that a few of those places you mentioned do such terrible things in their societies with ease because of their religions (killing un-loyal women, gays, refusing to marry etc. , especially the middle east where, in a lot of places, death is the norm for apostates...just look it up, it's a ******* mess that place.


Also, you said " God or no God, people still have the ability to know right from wrong and choose one or the other". Was this a slip on on your part or do you believe that we don't need God to be good and that objective moral values are a lie?

Edited by Sean93, 26 December 2012 - 04:33 PM.

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#25    GreenmansGod

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

View PostJor-el, on 25 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Yes, I do accept the Yahwehst view, although not in the absolute traditional christian sense. That being said, I do believe that God did order the deaths of many through his followers and those, yes we can lay at his door, but if we are going by the bible and what it says, those killed were not considered human, they were hybrids (as in all those in the land of Canaan when Joshua arrived there. If we trace the ancestries of those Canaanite tribes, we will come back to the Nephilim of old.

If you are interested here is a video that clarifies and expands on the matter of the Nephilim...

http://sureynot.com/...ridization.html

Aside from this, there are many other deaths recorded in the bible, many of which were not ordered by God himself, but by the Priesthood for any number of reasons, those you cannot place at the door of God. They are the exclusive responsibility of the killers, even when supposedly done in the "name of God".

So it was ok to rape and murder the Canaanites because there were subhuman.  Where have I head the one before...

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#26    Jor-el

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 26 December 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

So it was ok to rape and murder the Canaanites because there were subhuman.  Where have I head the one before...

Rape?

They were all killed without exception, that was the command.

And yes I agree that it might seem deplorable viewed from our oh so modern veneer of civilization, however shallow that might truly be. According to God, humans are meant to be human, not halfbreeds with non human DNA.

And I'm stating this because that is exactly what those people were reported to be, descendents of the Nephilim. This was not a case of considering another person subhuman because they didn't belong to a specific tribe, or because they belonged to a tribe who was considered an enemy. It was in fact a case of fighting a people that were human/non-human hybrids.

Humanity has a long history of considering others to be subhuman, white to black, Yellow, to white, short to tall, women to men. Yet, this is not what this killing was about. You may feel that to be an excuse, but according to the biblical record, those tribes were hybrids, not merely an enemy occupying a land they wanted.

Edited by Jor-el, 26 December 2012 - 06:29 PM.

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#27    redhen

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:30 PM

View Postblind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

One last theodical thread for 2012, ok I'm in. What you are describing is one part of the perennial Problem of Evil aka theodicy. Your question is easily answered, and has been already in this thread. The simple answer of course is free will.

The other part of theodicy is natural evil. You can find stacks of books on moral evil in college libraries. Books on natural evil however can be counted on one hand.

By natural evil we mean things like earthquakes, tsunamis, famine, ebola and HIV. More obvious are things that are inherent in creation, i.e. carnivores and hundreds of millions of years of pain,suffering and death, otherwise known as evolution.

If you apply your question why? to natural evil there are only a handful of answers, none of them are satisfactory.


#28    GreenmansGod

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

View PostJor-el, on 26 December 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Rape?

They were all killed without exception, that was the command.

And yes I agree that it might seem deplorable viewed from our oh so modern veneer of civilization, however shallow that might truly be. According to God, humans are meant to be human, not halfbreeds with non human DNA.

And I'm stating this because that is exactly what those people were reported to be, descendents of the Nephilim. This was not a case of considering another person subhuman because they didn't belong to a specific tribe, or because they belonged to a tribe who was considered an enemy. It was in fact a case of fighting a people that were human/non-human hybrids.

Humanity has a long history of considering others to be subhuman, white to black, Yellow, to white, short to tall, women to men. Yet, this is not what this killing was about. You may feel that to be an excuse, but according to the biblical record, those tribes were hybrids, not merely an enemy occupying a land they wanted.


There is very little fact in what you are saying, it was a just a case of the victors writing history. There were no hybrids. it is just an excuse for genocide. I would think a god would be at a higher evolutionary place than I a mer human and would find genocide to be at least as abhorrent as I do.  If you take the time to look at real history you would be amazed how much the Bible got wrong. Which is not surprising, being it is based on hearsay and camp stories.

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#29    Jor-el

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:28 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 26 December 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

There is very little fact in what you are saying, it was a just a case of the victors writing history. There were no hybrids. it is just an excuse for genocide. I would think a god would be at a higher evolutionary place than I a mer human and would find genocide to be at least as abhorrent as I do.  If you take the time to look at real history you would be amazed how much the Bible got wrong. Which is not surprising, being it is based on hearsay and camp stories.

That's the difference between opposing views. It doesn't change what the bible states.

It is interesting that as old as mankind is, even up to the modern era, the story remains the same, we simply call it by another name... alien abduction and hybridization.

http://sureynot.com/...ridization.html

Edited by Jor-el, 26 December 2012 - 10:35 PM.

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#30    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:16 AM

I have no idea why?  I may follow God, but I cannot speak on Gods behalf, I don't believe anyone truly can, never have done either ... I never dwell on it either.. I just get through each day as it comes..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 27 December 2012 - 12:18 AM.

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