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Down the Drain


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#16    Cynical Sounds

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:04 PM

Chemicals do not cause mutation in the way you are thinking.

the harsh conditions could cause a narrowing of the gene pool. Say some of the species "Organism A" have a mutation that causes them to be less susceptible to to the chemicals found in drains. This means those survive while others do not. This means this trait is passed on until it become normal. Now say this mutation also causes them to be a different colour (or a recessive gene passed on by the progenitor of the chemical resistance mutation also passes on this recessive gene/mutation) then it is more likely that "Organism A" found is sewers will also be displaying this recessive gene / mutation.

So basically an organism found in harsh conditions may be considered a mutant but its not because of the chemicals per se but natural selection and a narrowing of the gene pool...... and that doesn't happen over night.

Edited by Cynical Sounds, 26 December 2012 - 12:05 PM.

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#17    skookum

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 02:11 PM

I know the UK is considering a ban on washing your car on the roadside because of the pollution of the chemicals going down the storm drains.  Car washes and detergents are becoming increasingly more advanced and contain a variety of exotic plant materials, carnauba wax being one which is extremely tolerant and very hard wearing.

Not sure if it could cause a mutation but could potentially poison the water supplies in years to come.

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#18    King Fluffs

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 02:57 PM

Hmmm. That is indeed an interesting theory.


#19    spud the mackem

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:41 PM

View PostCynical Sounds, on 26 December 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Chemicals do not cause mutation in the way you are thinking.

the harsh conditions could cause a narrowing of the gene pool. Say some of the species "Organism A" have a mutation that causes them to be less susceptible to to the chemicals found in drains. This means those survive while others do not. This means this trait is passed on until it become normal. Now say this mutation also causes them to be a different colour (or a recessive gene passed on by the progenitor of the chemical resistance mutation also passes on this recessive gene/mutation) then it is more likely that "Organism A" found is sewers will also be displaying this recessive gene / mutation.

So basically an organism found in harsh conditions may be considered a mutant but its not because of the chemicals per se but natural selection and a narrowing of the gene pool...... and that doesn't happen over night.
  Chemicals do cause mutations, ask any  Mother of a Thalidomide victim

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#20    DieChecker

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:12 AM

View Postspud the mackem, on 26 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Chemicals do cause mutations, ask any  Mother of a Thalidomide victim
But isn't that actually Genetic damage, not mutation? If people poisoned with Thalidomide were mutates, they'd pass on their trait to their kids, and that has not happened. They were damaged while growing, not mutated.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#21    Overdueleaf

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:02 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 27 December 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

But isn't that actually Genetic damage, not mutation? If people poisoned with Thalidomide were mutates, they'd pass on their trait to their kids, and that has not happened. They were damaged while growing, not mutated.

Genetic damage can be genetic mutation...there are actually quite a few kinds of genetic mutation ...not ALL genetic mutatations will be passed along to offspring.. not all genetic mutations have an effect on the individual... some will alter the product of a gene and some will prevent the gene from functioning properly or at all.

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#22    DieChecker

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:16 AM

Isn't cancer just a genetic mutation gone out of control of the bodies systems?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#23    Overdueleaf

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:22 AM

I am not sure if it HAS to be a genetic mutation but it can be caused by genetic mutation... i do know that cancer is unregulated cell growth.. and that cancer has many different causes

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#24    Orcseeker

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:01 AM

Great and interesting replies so far.

Thanks for the explanation Cynical Sounds.

We have microbes in the soil of our backyards capable of breaking down the soaps contained in the grey water (soapy water). What I am saying is that we could be encouraging or even giving birth to new species capable of breaking down these chemical compounds and in turn could be extremely useful for waste management.

Also due to the fact about these creatures coming into contact with such chemicals frequently could cause some serious damage to them (also the constantly damp environment playing a part)  and would require development of certain resistances.


#25    Cynical Sounds

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:02 PM

View Postspud the mackem, on 26 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Chemicals do cause mutations, ask any  Mother of a Thalidomide victim
What you are talking about is not this kind of mutation were talking about.

While thalidominde did damage to babies in the womb but there is no scientific evidence this deformity has not been passed a 2nd generation (according to Dick Smithells at least and I'm willing to take his word on it) So while chemicals cause injury and damage and even damage to DNA my point was passable genetic mutation is unlikely if not impossible or irrelevant to this thread.

Edited by Cynical Sounds, 28 December 2012 - 05:06 PM.

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#26    Sweetpumper

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

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#27    ealdwita

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostNikkiAidyn, on 26 December 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

I wouldn't be surprised if there were  mutations down there..

After what I've eaten over the Christmas season - I'm damned sure there are mutations down there!!!

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#28    Overdueleaf

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:57 PM

View PostCynical Sounds, on 28 December 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

What you are talking about is not this kind of mutation were talking about.

... So while chemicals cause injury and damage and even damage to DNA my point was passable genetic mutation is unlikely if not impossible or irrelevant to this thread.

how/why is is impossible for genetic mutations caused by chemicals to be passed on to future generations?

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#29    Cynical Sounds

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:42 AM

View PostOverdueleaf, on 28 December 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

how/why is is impossible for genetic mutations caused by chemicals to be passed on to future generations?

I did say "unlikely if not impossible or irrelevant to this thread" and I meant it in context to this thread. Theoretically if both parents contained the exact same damaged gene it may be passed to the offspring but in the real world it it is unlikely as it would probably require
   Both parents to have exactly the same mutation.
   Not all genetic mutations are even passable to offspring in the first place  
   A chemical that causes mutation to be present in high enough quantities over a wide enough area that enough organisms "mutate"
   the damaged genes doesn't cause sterility or death before reaching maturity
   No new genetic material is being added to the gene pool from external sources (this would reduce the number of offspring carrying the mutated genes)

And I'm sure there are other factors I haven't taken into account.

this thread is about mutating to the point a new species is born which I would stand by my statement as there hasn't been enough time, one genetic deviation doesn't make a new species etc etc

sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough.

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#30    SubjectDigamma

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:30 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 28 December 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

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