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Europeans in Pre-Columbian Baffin Island?


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#1    Abramelin

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:30 AM

Mysterious European Figure in Pre-Columbian Baffin Island

A thirteenth- or fourteenth-century Thule ivory carving from southern Baffin Island in Canada should hardly surprise anyone. After all, the Thule Inuit did dwell in this place at that time. But when Debora Sabo dug up the carving pictured above in 1972 she was understandably jolted by her discovery, so much so that she dedicated an entire article to it. The shock is the subject of the ivory statuette. Our medieval Inuit has carved a non Inuit visitor of some description to the far Canadian north: that much is certain as the carving is utterly unlike an Inuit portrayal of Inuit. But who is this individual and where does he come from? The man in question is wearing a long tunic with a border along the bottom and with a split at the bottom. There is also a cross hanging down over the chest or even emblazoned on the front of the tunic. The man is hooded, a sensible precaution on Baffin Island, and looks as if he has a fencing mask on.

Attached File  BaffinIsland_Seaver-Carving.jpg   184.04K   44 downloads

More here:
http://www.strangehi...-baffin-island/


#2    GreenmansGod

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:05 PM

Interesting and doesn't surprise me.  The Vikings found North American long before Columbus found the Caribbean.  Are there any other sources. I looked but I didn't find anything. I like to find other sources for things for odd discoveries like this.   Thanks for the post.

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#3    Abramelin

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 27 December 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Interesting and doesn't surprise me.  The Vikings found North American long before Columbus found the Caribbean.  Are there any other sources. I looked but I didn't find anything. I like to find other sources for things for odd discoveries like this.   Thanks for the post.

You're welcome.

Of course I thought of the Vikings, but did these Vikings wear large crosses over their chests?

There are stories about a possible landing of the Knights Templar in North America, and this find might be an indication that that did indeed happen.

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 27 December 2012 - 12:48 PM.


#4    GreenmansGod

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:53 PM

Never know, they may have hitched a ride with the pagans.  I think Europeans have been coming to the Americas as long as they have had boats, it just wasn't recorded.

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#5    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:51 AM

Well considering the norse traders ventured through the canadian arctic and labrador/straight of st. lawrence for literally the better part of 500 years, why is this surprising? :unsure2:


#6    Likely Guy

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:40 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 28 December 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

Well considering the norse traders ventured through the canadian arctic and labrador/straight of st. lawrence for literally the better part of 500 years, why is this surprising? :unsure2:

No, that wasn't the arctic as we consider it now, was it? The only surprising thing is that it was that far north.

Baffin Island is a long, long way from L'Anse aux Meadows.

Edited by Likely Guy, 28 December 2012 - 01:46 AM.


#7    Likely Guy

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:58 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 December 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:



You're welcome.

Of course I thought of the Vikings, but did these Vikings wear large crosses over their chests?

There are stories about a possible landing of the Knights Templar in North America, and this find might be an indication that that did indeed happen.

Posted Image

In my humble opinion, the cross on the chest isn't pronounced enough. The 'christian cross' is merely the graphic representation of the pectoral muscles (man boobs) and the sternum.


#8    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:20 AM

Quote

No, that wasn't the arctic as we consider it now, was it? The only surprising thing is that it was that far north.

Baffin Island is a long, long way from L'Anse aux Meadows.

But its a stones throw from greenland...the most northern norse artifacts come from Axel-Heidelburg (sp??) island I believe... still, its an amazing, hardly explored part of our history. :)


#9    Abramelin

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

View PostLikely Guy, on 28 December 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

In my humble opinion, the cross on the chest isn't pronounced enough. The 'christian cross' is merely the graphic representation of the pectoral muscles (man boobs) and the sternum.

You think they walked around bare chested?  It's not what you would expect in a climate like that.


#10    Abramelin

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:23 AM

In September 2008, Nunatsiaq News reported that a team led by Dr. Patricia Sutherland had found archaeological remains of yarn, rats, tally sticks, a carved wooden Dorset culture face mask depicting Caucasian features, and possible architectural remains, which place European traders and possibly settlers on Baffin Island not later than AD 1000. What the source of this Old World contact may have been is unclear; the report states: "Dating of some yarn and other artifacts, presumed to be left by Vikings on Baffin Island, have produced an age that predates the Vikings by several hundred years. So [...] you have to consider the possibility that as remote as it may seem, these finds may represent evidence of contact with Europeans prior to the Vikings' arrival in Greenland". Dr Sutherland's research eventually led to a 2012 announcement that whetstones had been found with remnants of alloys indicative of Viking presence. The archaeological site at Nanook is thought to be a trading post and port, and thus Baffin Island would be Helluland.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Baffin_Island


#11    Abramelin

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:31 AM

And here's what I posted in the Oera Linda Book thread:

View PostAbramelin, on 05 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

This thread started with the book by Alewyn, and in his book he suggests ALDLAND/ ATLAND could have been the Faroer islands at the time it was much larger.

Alewyn described geological processes by which it could have been destroyed, leaving only the present archipelago.

Yes, it may have been a much larger area of land, but hardly habitable when it was larger because that must have been during the last Ice Age, the Faroer being land covered in an ice sheet, or bordering it.

Did Frisians live in the Faroer? Yes, they did, and as pirates at its southern tip. But that was during the middle ages (around the 12th century CE, Akraberg).


OK, here's something new (I think), and again from Adam von Bremen:

Frisian expedition to the North Pole

[iv. 39.] “Archbishop Adalbert, of blessed memory, likewise told us that in his predecessor’s days certain noblemen from Friesland, intending to plough the sea, set sail northwards, because people say there that due north of the mouth of the river Wirraha [Weser] no land is to be met with, but only an infinite ocean. They joined together to investigate this curious thing, and left the Frisian coast with cheerful song. Then they left Dania on one side, Britain on the other, and reached the Orkneys. When they had left these behind on the left, and had Nordmannia on the right, they reached after a long voyage the frozen Iceland. Ploughing the seas from this land towards the extreme axis of the north, after seeing behind them all the islands already mentioned, and confiding their lives and their boldness to Almighty God and the holy preacher Willehad, they suddenly glided into the misty darkness of the stiffened ocean, which can scarcely be penetrated by the eye. And behold! the stream of the unstable sea there ran back into one of its secret sources, drawing at a fearful speed the unhappy seamen, who had already given up hope and only thought of death, into that profound chaos (this is said to be the gulf of the abyss) in which it is said that all the back-currents of the sea, which seem to abate, are sucked up and vomited forth again, which latter is usually called flood-tide. While they were then calling upon God’s mercy, that He might receive their souls, this backward-running stream of the sea caught some of their fellows’ ships, but the rest were shot [Pg 196]out by the issuing current far beyond the others. When they had thus by God’s help been delivered from the imminent danger, which had been before their very eyes, they saved themselves upon the waves by rowing with all their strength.

[iv. 40.] “And being now past the danger of darkness and the region of cold they landed unexpectedly upon an island, which was fortified like a town, with cliffs all about it. They landed there to see the place, and found people who at midday hid themselves in underground caves; before the doors of these lay an immense quantity of golden vessels and metal of the sort which is regarded by mortals as rare and precious; when therefore they had taken as much of the treasures as they could lift, the rowers hastened gladly back to their ships. Then suddenly they saw people of marvellous height coming behind them, whom we call Cyclopes, and before them ran dogs which surpassed the usual size of these animals. One of the men was caught, as these rushed forward, and in an instant he was torn to pieces before their eyes; but the rest were taken up into the ships and escaped the danger, although, as they related, the giants followed them with cries nearly into deep sea. With such a fate pursuing them, the Frisians came to Bremen, where they told the most reverend Alebrand everything in order as it happened, and made offerings to the gentle Christ and his preacher Willehad for their safe return.”


http://www.gutenberg...3-h/40633-h.htm



#12    Abramelin

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:33 AM

From that same thread:

View PostAbramelin, on 06 December 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

Adam von Bremen lived in the second half of the 11th century:
http://en.wikipedia..../Adam_of_Bremen

He talks about the Frisians sailing to the North Pole and mentions their contemporary, the reverend Alebrand, to whom they told about their adventures after they returned.:
http://de.wikipedia....rand_von_Bremen

So the Frisians are said to have reached... what? Greenland? America?... in the middle of the eleventh century.

http://en.wikipedia....lehad_of_Bremen

The Zeno brothers lived in the 14th century: http://en.wikipedia....i/Zeno_brothers

Their story about those mythical islands, like Frieslant Island, is said to be a fabrication (based on the Faroer), but could Adam von Bremen have been their source?

And did the Frisians reach the Americas in the 11th century CE??

Niccolò Zeno.
The voyages of the Venetian brothers, Nicolò & Antonio Zeno, to the northern seas in the XIVth century : comprising the latest known accounts of the lost colony of Greenland and of the Northmen in America before Columbus


http://archive.org/d...netia00zenorich

Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum - Adam von Bremen
http://archive.org/d...urgen00adamuoft


Tschan, F.J. (ed.) Adam of Bremen: History of the Archbishops of Hamburg-Bremen (New York 1959)

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false


An Eleventh-Century Frisian Voyage to
Labrador: Possibilities and Probabilities
Donald D Hogarth
University of Ottawa, Canada, 2011


Scholars have largely dismissed Adam of Bremen’s account of an eleventh
century Frisian voyage to “the northwest” due to elements of the story
characterized as too mythological or obscure to be worthy of study. This
article attempts to bring some clarity to the opposing views, highlighting
what might be a “possible” interpretation of this problematic voyage.

[..]

Summary of the northwest voyage of the Frisians: possible
sequence and events

Sometime about 1040 ce, a group of East Frisians, led by several noblemen, left
the mouth of the Weser River, sailed west to England, turned north to the Orkneys,
probably passed or landed at the Faroes, then landed on Iceland. From here, the
story becomes less definite, due to a complete lack of place names. However, the
route around Greenland — across Davis Strait to the Cumberland Peninsula of Baffin
Island and into Frobisher Bay, skirting the coast of southern Labrador — follows
a well traveled Viking trail. Off Cumberland Sound they would have encountered
icebergs, in Frobisher Bay, fog and giant tides, and off Resolution Island, fierce tidal
currents. Then, finally, they landed on Castle Island in Chateâu Bay, Labrador, where
a skirmish with Viking treasure guards took place. The Frisians made off with some
of this treasure and, in order to be absolved of piracy back home, invented a tale of
treasure-hoarding Cyclopes and their giant vicious dogs. Part of their treasure was
given to the Church in memory of their patron saint, Willehad. The voyage may have
been motivated as a raid of retribution under the guise of a journey of exploration or
a missionary venture.


http://docserver.ing...DFC0F0057DCCFF7


This Hogarth thinks the Frisians raided the raiders, aka the Vikings.


But like I posted on Februari this year, Martinus Hamconius claimed the Frisians even sailed to the silver mines in Mexico, also in the 11th century:

[xxxiv] See Martinus Hamconius, writing before 1620, who claims that Netherlanders reached the mines of Mexico and settled Chile in Charles Van den Bergh, “Nederlands Aanspraak" ("Dutch Claim"), op.cit., pp.30-33.

http://www.unexplain...15#entry4218689

So the "Inka" story in the OLB has a basis, be it some 3000 years too late...

.


Edited by Abramelin, 28 December 2012 - 11:34 AM.


#13    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:21 PM

View PostLikely Guy, on 28 December 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

Baffin Island is a long, long way from L'Anse aux Meadows.

The Western Norse Settlement (roughly, present-day Nuuk) was about 400 miles due East of Baffin Island.

Edited by PersonFromPorlock, 28 December 2012 - 11:21 PM.


#14    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:07 PM

Quote from ny former post:

However, the route around Greenland — across Davis Strait to the Cumberland Peninsula of Baffin
Island and into Frobisher Bay, skirting the coast of southern Labrador — follows
a well traveled Viking trail. Off Cumberland Sound they would have encountered
icebergs, in Frobisher Bay, fog and giant tides, and off Resolution Island, fierce tidal
currents. Then, finally, they landed on Castle Island in Chateâu Bay, Labrador, where
a skirmish with Viking treasure guards took place. The Frisians made off with some
of this treasure and, in order to be absolved of piracy back home, invented a tale of
treasure-hoarding Cyclopes and their giant vicious dogs. Part of their treasure was
given to the Church in memory of their patron saint, Willehad. The voyage may have
been motivated as a raid of retribution under the guise of a journey of exploration or
a missionary venture.


What I highlighted in blue may explain the cross on the chest of the figurine.


The time is about right too:

Sometime about 1040 ce, a group of East Frisians, led by several noblemen (...)

-

In September 2008, Nunatsiaq News reported that a team led by Dr. Patricia Sutherland had found archaeological remains of yarn, rats, tally sticks, a carved wooden Dorset culture face mask depicting Caucasian features, and possible architectural remains, which place European traders and possibly settlers on Baffin Island not later than AD 1000.


#15    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

Or, in the mid 13-hundreds, the king of norway sent a mission out to Greenland and the "lands to the west" (cough, cough :whistle: ). It was apparently both a mission of exploration and a mission to make sure that Christianity was being enforced. :)





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