38 replies to this topic

[Zaphod222]

Wearer of Hats, on 29 December 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I favour the idea that when we die we experience the afterlife we expect, Buddhists get reincarnated, Christians get a mansion in the house of the Father of Jesus, Atheists just stop ... which means it sucks to be an Atheist Maybe you get to choose - Heaven, reincarnate, end it ...

Interesting logic there. So you assume that Yahweeh, Allah, Buddha and all the rest of the pantheon all exist at the same time? In that case, I am sure that one of the more benevolent gods (like the one of the Jains) will also accomodate the atheists.

But since religions typically claim to accept the sole truth, you better realize that a religionist is only an atheist minus one. And the tens of thousands of religions out there, Pascal´s bet really does not offer that great odds...

Edited by Zaphod222, 19 January 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[Professor T]

I believe that before life there was something.
After life there is something..
So even when your life is through,
there's something to look forward to.

[SubjectDigamma]

To live is Christ to die is gain

[braveone2u]

Ali Baba, on 29 December 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

What do you think happens when you die ?? Personally I believe in reincarnation after a short time in another consciencesness

Hi Ali Bab,

It's not just a belief; I know that there's a reality in us that doesn't cease to exist. Call it "presence," soul, or spirit, if you will.  It, however, has to go somewhere after the body falls away. In a way, our time on earth is spent to give our soul its proper home after this lifetime. Reincarnation is one alternative, but it's DEFINITELY not my goal. Going through the process of Nirvana via the Void (to be one with God) is another, but the catch is you have to lose your "uniqueness," the "awareness" that you are separate from God because God (the Father) is one (not 2, 3 , 4 and so on) in His reality, the only captain of the ship; God is not run by a committee. On the other hand, I believe in the Holy Trinity -- "the threefold personality of the one Divine Being."

Jesus Christ (the Son) is my Lord with the promise of His paradise...eternal perfection. I believe that in paradise, the "awareness" of my uniqueness will not be erased, deleted, burned up -- unlike going through the process of Nirvana to merge with God (the Father).  

Paradise versus Nirvana (merging) versus reincarnation.

Peace.

Paul

[SubjectDigamma]

AMEN PREACH IT BROTHEA

[ozman]

You go into a higher dimensional realm, there are hidden dimensions superimposed over you everywhere.   God is nearer to you than your jugular vein.

[Frank Merton]

Jinxdom, on 01 January 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I think it really depends on what you want and believe. Some people will just leave, some people will be reincarnated, some will stay behind possibly as a ghost or what not, some may even go to a better place. I think it is a tad bit more complicated then just one set form.

I've always been skeptical about an afterlife: after all, its such a nice idea and we don't want to die.  That makes me suspicious.  Also, there are conditions where the memory deteriorates and with it the personality vanishes.  To a large extent we are our memories, and these conditions imply that physical disease destroys our memory, so death would also.

I think for these reasons it is best for me to avoid discussion with people who don't think there is life after death.  For a slew of reasons, mostly anectdotal and unreproducible, both personal and testimony from others, there does seem to be at least some who in some way survive death.

I would not be surprised if extinction were not what happens to the truly evil, if such people actually exist.  Rebirth in the Buddhist sense (not reincarnation, a different thing) seems likely, but why limit such events to the Earth? -- and again maybe there are such limits.

[Hasina]

I don't know. When I think about it I fancy afterlife, I fancy reincarnation and I fancy the blackness of a finite life, but they also scare me. An I worthy of the good afterlife? Will I go up or down the reincarnation ladder? If it's all black, so what of all this? I don't believe in anything, I just know death is a wall.

Edited by Hasina, 22 January 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Zaphod222]

braveone2u, on 21 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Paradise versus Nirvana (merging) versus reincarnation.

The last two are not separate options. In the Buddhist worldview, the chain of reincarnations eventually gets you to liberation from it (NIrwana).

Quite an elegant philosphy. But just as unfounded as all the others.

Fact is: We don´t know. Like it or not.

[Frank Merton]

Zaphod222, on 23 January 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

The last two are not separate options. In the Buddhist worldview, the chain of reincarnations eventually gets you to liberation from it (NIrwana).

Quite an elegant philosphy. But just as unfounded as all the others.

Fact is: We don´t know. Like it or not.

Were that Buddhist teaching were really so full of hope.  Buddhism emphasizes what the world really is, not what we would like it to be.

First, the word "reborn" is usually preferred over "reincarnated."  Reincarnation implies that we return; rebirth implies something different.  We die.  We are dead.  Something of our life process or spirit can survive this and come into a womb and become a new person.  That is a new person, with its own genetic makeup, its own life experiences, its own personality.  About the only thing it inherits is some of the karma and traits of the former person, and few if any of its memories.  It is essentially a new person.  Buddhism does not offer immortality.

The second thing is that this process is not universally viewed as desirable.  Existence is mainly about the frustration of desires and ensuing suffering.  The objective is to escape the cycle of "Samsara" (this rebirth process) by stopping the rebirth, and this is done by suppressing the desire to continue personal existence.  One then is able to become extinct and end the endless suffering.

Now obviously not all, nor probably even a large number, of Buddhists take it so bluntly.  Nirvana means extinction, but it also means paradise.  Many Buddhists see the promise of each rebirth leading to a higher and higher state until one gets into a heaven or becomes a Buddha oneself.  The reality as originally conceived, however, was more one of a random walk; during some lives karma is accumulated, during others it is spent.  The cycle essentially goes on forever.

Buddhism has many varieties, and many of these varieties are more or less optimistic on these topics, or at least deny the extinction aspect of Nirvana.  Others don't emphasize the life is suffering aspect and try to make the best of a world in which both suffering and pleasure coexist.

[braveone2u]

Zaphod222, on 23 January 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

The last two are not separate options. In the Buddhist worldview, the chain of reincarnations eventually gets you to liberation from it (NIrwana).

Quite an elegant philosphy. But just as unfounded as all the others.

Fact is: We don´t know. Like it or not.

Hi Zaphod222,

I take my personal experience of the Void (the beginning process of Nirvana) versus the vague Buddhist "worldview." Nirvana is "characterized by freedom from or oblivion to pain, worry, and the external world," according to Dictionary dot com. "Freedom," that amazing word is thrown so easily that in the end the meaning becomes zilch. To be frank with you, I believe Buddha never attained Nirvana, the "true" sense of the word, while he was alive. No one on earth has achieved it; otherwise, one wouldn't be here. Read my past posts to know where I'm coming from on this (to not repeat myself).

Unfounded to you, yes. Fact is, you wouldn't have the nerve to enter it if it were given you -- just an assumption.

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u, 24 January 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[braveone2u]

Hasina, on 22 January 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

I don't believe in anything...

You look too stylish to not believe in anything. Peace and loveliness.

[AsteroidX]

cycle of rebirth

[Frank Merton]

braveone2u, on 24 January 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

You look too stylish to not believe in anything. Peace and loveliness.

I kinda agree with her; don't "believe" in anything.  Have opinions about everything but don't let them sink to the unreasoning level of beliefs.  Always cherish a little doubt.

[braveone2u]

Hi Frank Merton,

To doubt is normal, especially since you haven't experienced death and resurrection, or at least you don't have any recollection. I, on the other hand, can't afford to doubt anymore. This lifetime has been giving me quite a number of situations to really ponder and decide. This came to me again after I decided to go back to my Christian root:

"And he said: 'I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven...'"  (Matthew 18:3)

Have you ever cried out for guidance and comfort, coming from the depths of your being? I literally became like a helpless child crying out to the Lord because 2012 was the zenith of my earthly travails with my fear of going back to that Void, to top it all off. It's interesting that Matthew 25:30 came to me during a recent online research (speaking of strange and yet, important to me): "And cast you the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

My renewed faith in Jesus Christ has given me hope, and that says quite a bit.

In a way, I'm like the modern day Jonah. It is fascinating that I didn't have a nervous breakdown. Then again, the head of my order (when I was a meditation teacher) told me that it's not in my character to fall apart. Have you ever seen the movie The Bible: In the Beginning...? If so, watch Hagar's scene in the desert with her dying son Ishmael.

If you wish to read more, please follow the link:

http://www.unexplain...5

Peace.

Paul

Edited by braveone2u, 24 January 2013 - 08:02 PM.