Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 1 votes

Historical criticism: "Moving" dates & places

historical criticism historical-critical method science history of science scientific methods

  • Please log in to reply
82 replies to this topic

#1    Proclus

Proclus

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 271 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Frankfurt, Germany

  • Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place!

Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:04 PM

After some radical Atlantis skeptics did repeatedly not understand under which circumstances it is scientifically supported and absolutely reasonable to "move" or "map" a date or place in an ancient story, I start now this thread.

The basic question is: Under which circumstances are you willing to accept that a place or date in an ancient story (Bible, Herodotus, Atlantis, whatever) has to be "moved" or "mapped" (however you want to call it) to another date or place, which is then the real date or place, the date and place really meant, the date and place the ancient text is really talking about?

Example: Herodotus talks of pharao Menes living 11340 years before, but modern science found that king Menes indeed lived approx. 3000 BC. So Herodotus' Menes is a reality, but the date has to be "moved" - as everybody can see, because of good reasons.

Example: Ancient geographers screwed up the place of far-away places like Britain. They thought it to be x miles away, but in reality there are y miles. Despite the error, Britain really exists! We only have to "move" the wrong placing to the right place. (And maybe Britain is much smaller than the ancients thought? Not a problem for us, Britain is anyway real, I hope you agree.)

So, what "good reasons" for such a "moving" of dates and places and sizes do you accept?
I am looking forward to your opinions!
Do you know other good examples?

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#2    Sir Wearer of Hats

Sir Wearer of Hats

    SCIENCE!

  • Member
  • 11,879 posts
  • Joined:08 Nov 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queensland, Australia.

Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

the birthdate of Jesus is the most famous "shuffled date" I can think of, first of all given clues within the text he was born more towards th middle of the year (closer to an equinox rather then a solstice IIRC) and it wasn't "year zero" despite the best efforts of the likes o Thomas Aquinas, but closer (afain IIRC) to about AD 30.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#3    Proclus

Proclus

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 271 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Frankfurt, Germany

  • Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place!

Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 01 January 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

the birthdate of Jesus is the most famous "shuffled date" I can think of, first of all given clues within the text he was born more towards th middle of the year (closer to an equinox rather then a solstice IIRC) and it wasn't "year zero" despite the best efforts of the likes o Thomas Aquinas, but closer (afain IIRC) to about AD 30.

Jesus is another example like Atlantis: Only mentioned in one source, all other sources much later.
Was Jesus a historical person, then? Or a mythical invention? (The same question exists for Muhammed and Buddha and ...)

I am not interested in the question itself, rather in the methods you want to apply to find an answer ...
If you think Jesus was a person of history, why do you think this under a scientific perspective?

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#4    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 36,256 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:27 PM

Herodotus was about as good as historian as Zane Gray. Unless you also are willing to take his word for two headed giants in Libya you better take anything he says with a great bit of caution.

As far as the History of ancient Egypt, in Herodotus' time (5th century BC) there was nobody who could have given you an accurate description of what happened around 2500 BC or 2000 years previous.

Edited by questionmark, 01 January 2013 - 12:28 PM.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#5    Proclus

Proclus

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 271 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Frankfurt, Germany

  • Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place!

Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:42 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 January 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Herodotus was about as good as historian as Zane Gray. Unless you also are willing to take his word for two headed giants in Libya you better take anything he says with a great bit of caution.
As far as the History of ancient Egypt, in Herodotus' time (5th century BC) there was nobody who could have given you an accurate description of what happened around 2500 BC or 2000 years previous.

I disagree with your judgement of Herodotus. The giants and other things are clearly marked as myths by Herodotus. Whereas the information which gave him the basis for his Egyptian chronology came directly from the prime source, the temples and priests; nevertheless he (and the priests!?) screwed it up.

But I agree fully with you that the ancient Greeks had no clear idea of long-ago times. Such starts the Atlantis story of Plato: Solon confesses that he knows only myths and asks in Egypt for better information. If this is an invention, it is not a bad one, because Egypt really was a place to get better information on the past, at least compared to others.

Yet, you have not answered on the initial question of this thread!

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#6    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 36,256 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:21 PM

View PostProclus, on 01 January 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

I disagree with your judgement of Herodotus. The giants and other things are clearly marked as myths by Herodotus. Whereas the information which gave him the basis for his Egyptian chronology came directly from the prime source, the temples and priests; nevertheless he (and the priests!?) screwed it up.

But I agree fully with you that the ancient Greeks had no clear idea of long-ago times. Such starts the Atlantis story of Plato: Solon confesses that he knows only myths and asks in Egypt for better information. If this is an invention, it is not a bad one, because Egypt really was a place to get better information on the past, at least compared to others.

Yet, you have not answered on the initial question of this thread!

Like that one of the funerary temples show the amount of cabbages the pharaoh had to buy to feed his workers?

Right.

Fact is that whoever told Herodotus the history of Egypt, just as an example, knew less about it than a modern day tour guide.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#7    Proclus

Proclus

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 271 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Frankfurt, Germany

  • Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place!

Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:08 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Like that one of the funerary temples show the amount of cabbages the pharaoh had to buy to feed his workers?

Right.

Fact is that whoever told Herodotus the history of Egypt, just as an example, knew less about it than a modern day tour guide.

You are fully right ... except one small tiny thing: That you think Herodotus could have done better.

But he could not.

He was the first one to come to Egypt. He was the first one to ask for its history, for which the priests themselves did not show interest. He fully relied on translators. As a friend of Athens he travelled in a country conquered by the Persians.

Herodotus did a great job!
He made a lot of mistakes, but he always tried his very best.

Concerning the cabbage: Modern Egyptology assumes that this really was the notion among the Egyptians, then. So once again Herodotus is confirmed to be a trustworthy reporter of his time. What less educated persons rarely understand: Egypt was not a country full of knowledge and wisdom. In the Saitic period a totally different atmosphere reigned.

Historical criticism means among other things: Do not just think the author is a lier. Consider the historical context and you will see that the author had reasons to believe what he wrote although it is wrong and something else is true what he really meant!

You still have not answered the initial question.

Edited by Proclus, 01 January 2013 - 03:09 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#8    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 36,256 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:14 PM

View PostProclus, on 01 January 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

You are fully right ... except one small tiny thing: That you think Herodotus could have done better.

But he could not.

He was the first one to come to Egypt. He was the first one to ask for its history, for which the priests themselves did not show interest. He fully relied on translators. As a friend of Athens he travelled in a country conquered by the Persians.

Herodotus did a great job!
He made a lot of mistakes, but he always tried his very best.

Concerning the cabbage: Modern Egyptology assumes that this really was the notion among the Egyptians, then. So once again Herodotus is confirmed to be a trustworthy reporter of his time. What less educated persons rarely understand: Egypt was not a country full of knowledge and wisdom. In the Saitic period a totally different atmosphere reigned.

Historical criticism means among other things: Do not just think the author is a lier. Consider the historical context and you will see that the author had reasons to believe what he wrote although it is wrong and something else is true what he really meant!

You still have not answered the initial question.

Who cares whether he knowingly lied? The fact of the matter is that his whole account is unreliable. And that is the bottom line.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#9    Proclus

Proclus

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 271 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Frankfurt, Germany

  • Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place!

Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:06 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 January 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Who cares whether he knowingly lied? The fact of the matter is that his whole account is unreliable. And that is the bottom line.

Who caaarees?! *cringe*
Well, you are lost for science, as it seems. You are not able to see the worth of it all.
Historical criticism is not your cup of tea, but to believe is it: All or nothing is your slogan, is it?
I will not ask for an answer on the initial question a third time.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#10    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 36,256 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostProclus, on 01 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Who caaarees?! *cringe*
Well, you are lost for science, as it seems. You are not able to see the worth of it all.
Historical criticism is not your cup of tea, but to believe is it: All or nothing is your slogan, is it?
I will not ask for an answer on the initial question a third time.

I am just pointing out that the premises of your initial question is faulty and therefore any answer to the question will be faulty... therefore not bothering to content with it.

If you are so strong on "science" you should have been able to extrapolate that by yourself.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#11    Proclus

Proclus

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 271 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Frankfurt, Germany

  • Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place!

Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 January 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I am just pointing out that the premises of your initial question is faulty and therefore any answer to the question will be faulty... therefore not bothering to content with it.

If you are so strong on "science" you should have been able to extrapolate that by yourself.

Now this becomes interesting. Not everybody is so smart as you are :-)

So you think it is wrong to see king Menes at approx. 3000 BC? You think it is wrong to assume that Herodotus got a piece of reality in his hands when he heard of king Menes? Please clarify your point, I am so silly, I haven't got it fully, sorry sorry ...

Edited by Proclus, 01 January 2013 - 05:22 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#12    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 36,256 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

View PostProclus, on 01 January 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Now this becomes interesting. Not everybody is so smart as you are :-)

So you think it is wrong to see king Menes at approx. 3000 BC? You think it is wrong to assume that Herodotus got a piece of reality in his hands when he heard of king Menes? Please clarify your point, I am so silly, I haven't got it fully, sorry sorry ...

Your guess is as good as anybody else. There is nothing independent corroborating Menes and while the current trend is to date him around 3000 BCE there have been opinions dating him from 5000-2000 BCE. It could also very well be that he is as mythical king as Fu Xi. All we know for certain is that the most recent discovery is an image of a pharaoh dating around that time, but as far as I remember there is no inscription identifying him.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#13    Proclus

Proclus

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 271 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Frankfurt, Germany

  • Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place!

Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:46 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 January 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Your guess is as good as anybody else. There is nothing independent corroborating Menes and while the current trend is to date him around 3000 BCE there have been opinions dating him from 5000-2000 BCE. It could also very well be that he is as mythical king as Fu Xi. All we know for certain is that the most recent discovery is an image of a pharaoh dating around that time, but as far as I remember there is no inscription identifying him.

The current .... "trend"? *shock*
It is pretty sure that Menes has to be dated approx. 3000 BC. Your range of 5000 to 2000 BC makes me laughing. This range is far from science ... - And: Of course Menes could be a legendary pharao to give the start of chronologies a name, but: Concerning the dating question this does not matter. So you missed the point altogether.

And you still have not answered the initial question.

Why not trying with a totally different example? The eruption of Santorini was dated at different points of time, and thus all dependent chronology shifted with this dating. Again, it is not important whether this or that dating is correct. I am interested in the question: Would you basically agree in this shiftings of datings? (Has nothing to do with Atlantis, by the way *smile*)

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#14    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 36,256 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:10 PM

View PostProclus, on 01 January 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

The current .... "trend"? *shock*
It is pretty sure that Menes has to be dated approx. 3000 BC. Your range of 5000 to 2000 BC makes me laughing. This range is far from science ... - And: Of course Menes could be a legendary pharao to give the start of chronologies a name, but: Concerning the dating question this does not matter. So you missed the point altogether.

And you still have not answered the initial question.

Why not trying with a totally different example? The eruption of Santorini was dated at different points of time, and thus all dependent chronology shifted with this dating. Again, it is not important whether this or that dating is correct. I am interested in the question: Would you basically agree in this shiftings of datings? (Has nothing to do with Atlantis, by the way *smile*)

By a few hundred years back and forth, probably, especially those parts of history we know as the stone age. Most other dates (starting with the invention of scripture) are multiple corroborated so there is no need, and no sense, in shifting them anywhere. Within the shortest time its inaccuracy would be discovered.

And if you never have seen Menes dated as far as back as 5000 BC that must be because your knowledge about history as a science must be much more limited than what you think. Among others that was claimed by Champollion, Bokh and Mariette.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#15    AsteroidX

AsteroidX

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,570 posts
  • Joined:16 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Free America

  • it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:13 PM

History is written by the victor. FACT not fiction.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users