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Crop Circles just one sign of Revelation


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#346    Myles

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:44 PM

View Postlaver, on 21 May 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

There are many other factors that you do not mention which affect your assumption as you may be aware. Your assumption is of course not unreasonable if you are however not aware of these other factors. If knowing all these factors you wish to maintain that all crop circles are manmade then Willful Blindness may be involved because there are so many unanswered questions in the manmade scenario that some other explanation is called for.

Many people used to believe and teach that the sun went round the Earth as the centre of the Universe and even when the evidence was presented to the contrary they maintained their position because they were willfully blind to the evidence as it meant a complete readjustment of their beliefs, so it was ignored.

Similarly we may have to take on board evidence that questions many aspects of life and belief but hopefully we will be able to do so with a more open mind than in the past.
I take offense to you using the term willfully blind and using the "sun rotating around the earth" comparison.   I'm surprised you didn't throw the flat earth thought out there too.
As I have said, I have not come across any legitimate studies to back up your claims.


#347    DieChecker

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:46 PM

View Postlaver, on 21 May 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

It is strange that despite the complexity of crop designs, the way they appear often quickly and usually at night, the effects on the crops and the ground, the effects on people who visit them and electrical equipment, the mathematical messages they may contain.. etc, there are some people who refuse to admit that any of these designs could be other than manmade.

Is this a case of Willful Blindness as written about by Margaret Heffernan ?

Are these people consciously or unconsciously blinded from things that they do not want to consider properly? and why?
That almost sounds like the old "Government Disinformation Agents" arguement where some believe that government agents purposefully come onto sites like this and post information that they know is not true to try to cover up what is really happening.

I don't think it is Blindness. I think it is the Scientific Method. Evidence is what prooves what is the real reason. As far as I know, all the methods that have been shown to possibly apply.... ultrasound, microwaves, stompers, vortexes... All are natural or could be done by man. It could be someone with a long pole with some kind of microwave transmitter that goes out and just quickly mows down hundreds of square feet per minute.  If we can imagine humans doing it, that has to be the first conclusion, unless Johnny Alien turns up and confesses.

View PostMyles, on 21 May 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

I assume they are all manmade until it is proven otherwise. That is the only logical way to go about it.
I've read the interesting articles and stories about how people felt different when they were at the scene or how there was electromagnetic fields inside the crop circles.   But I haven't read what I call a legitimate study proving any of this.
People feel different when in Church or in a scary Movie. It is because they have the Expectation of feeling different. Same thing here, IMHO. The "crop circle investigators", or whatever they are called, go into the field with a preconseved expectation of feeling something different. Some of them seem to have a "Religious" experience just looking out on a crop circle field.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#348    Myles

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:53 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 21 May 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:


People feel different when in Church or in a scary Movie. It is because they have the Expectation of feeling different. Same thing here, IMHO. The "crop circle investigators", or whatever they are called, go into the field with a preconseved expectation of feeling something different. Some of them seem to have a "Religious" experience just looking out on a crop circle field.

I too believe that to be the case with crop circles.


#349    jaylemurph

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:26 PM

View Postlaver, on 21 May 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

There are many other factors that you do not mention which affect your assumption as you may be aware. Your assumption is of course not unreasonable if you are however not aware of these other factors. If knowing all these factors you wish to maintain that all crop circles are manmade then Willful Blindness may be involved because there are so many unanswered questions in the manmade scenario that some other explanation is called for.

Many people used to believe and teach that the sun went round the Earth as the centre of the Universe and even when the evidence was presented to the contrary they maintained their position because they were willfully blind to the evidence as it meant a complete readjustment of their beliefs, so it was ignored.

Similarly we may have to take on board evidence that questions many aspects of life and belief but hopefully we will be able to do so with a more open mind than in the past.

There we go. The inevitable, I Know What's Really Going On™ post. Coupled here with the also inevitable They Don't Want You To Know™ schema. Thank goodness Laver here is just touched enough with a martyr complex to be our intellectual part-time saviour.  :)

--Jaylemurph

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#350    laver

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:53 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 21 May 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

There we go. The inevitable, I Know What's Really Going On™ post. Coupled here with the also inevitable They Don't Want You To Know™ schema. Thank goodness Laver here is just touched enough with a martyr complex to be our intellectual part-time saviour.  :)

--Jaylemurph

No, I don't know what is going on..  and nor do you!!...martyr complex!! Ha ha

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'It could be someone with a long pole with some kind of microwave transmitter that goes out and just quickly mows down hundreds of square feet per minute. If we can imagine humans doing it, that has to be the first conclusion, unless Johnny Alien turns up and confesses'


Well if you believe that you would believe anything.....a clear case of Willfull Blindness


#351    jaylemurph

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:35 PM

View Postlaver, on 21 May 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

No, I don't know what is going on..  and nor do you!!...martyr complex!! Ha ha

I've never claimed to know much. In fact, you can find plenty of posts of me saying precisely that.

I stand by the martyr complex thing, though.


Quote

'It could be someone with a long pole with some kind of microwave transmitter that goes out and just quickly mows down hundreds of square feet per minute. If we can imagine humans doing it, that has to be the first conclusion, unless Johnny Alien turns up and confesses'


Well if you believe that you would believe anything.....a clear case of Willfull Blindness

And what, precisely, leads you to imagine I believe such a foolish thing? Or are you suggesting I /said/ such a thing, which is equally ludicrous?

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#352    laver

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:53 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 21 May 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

I've never claimed to know much. In fact, you can find plenty of posts of me saying precisely that.

I stand by the martyr complex thing, though.




And what, precisely, leads you to imagine I believe such a foolish thing? Or are you suggesting I /said/ such a thing, which is equally ludicrous?

--Jaylemurph

View Postjaylemurph, on 21 May 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

I've never claimed to know much. In fact, you can find plenty of posts of me saying precisely that.

I stand by the martyr complex thing, though.




And what, precisely, leads you to imagine I believe such a foolish thing? Or are you suggesting I /said/ such a thing, which is equally ludicrous?

--Jaylemurph

I don't know what a martyr complex might be in this context but it made no sense to me

Sorry if the quote given was not clear it was from a few posts earlier (DieChecker)
But it illustrates the sort of ridiculous ideas some people will come up with to try and explain effects on crops in an all manmade scenario.
There is no evidence, nil, that all crop circles are manmade but much evidence that some of them have features which raise serious doubts.
Why would some people want to ignore these doubts and ridicule anyone who points them out?
For some reason they cannot cope with the idea that some crop designs are probably not manmade and in doing so they may be being Willfully Blind.


#353    Myles

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:31 PM

View Postlaver, on 22 May 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

I don't know what a martyr complex might be in this context but it made no sense to me

Sorry if the quote given was not clear it was from a few posts earlier (DieChecker)
But it illustrates the sort of ridiculous ideas some people will come up with to try and explain effects on crops in an all manmade scenario.
There is no evidence, nil, that all crop circles are manmade but much evidence that some of them have features which raise serious doubts.
Why would some people want to ignore these doubts and ridicule anyone who points them out?
For some reason they cannot cope with the idea that some crop designs are probably not manmade and in doing so they may be being Willfully Blind.

That is the issue.   Your use of the word "probably".    It is more probably that the long pole theory is correct than aliens.    You must start with the most probable and work from there.   Not the other way around.


#354    jaylemurph

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:11 PM

View Postlaver, on 22 May 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Sorry if the quote given was not clear it was from a few posts earlier (DieChecker)
But it illustrates the sort of ridiculous ideas some people will come up with to try and explain effects on crops in an all manmade scenario.
There is no evidence, nil, that all crop circles are manmade but much evidence that some of them have features which raise serious doubts.
Why would some people want to ignore these doubts and ridicule anyone who points them out?
For some reason they cannot cope with the idea that some crop designs are probably not manmade and in doing so they may be being Willfully Blind.

...except for the people who /admitted they did and showed how/. (https://en.wikipedia...circle#Man-made)

Or here, a bit more simply: http://www.cracked.c...tted-hoaxes_p2/

Talk about willfully blind.

--Jaylemurph

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#355    laver

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:49 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 22 May 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

...except for the people who /admitted they did and showed how/. (https://en.wikipedia...circle#Man-made)

Or here, a bit more simply: http://www.cracked.c...tted-hoaxes_p2/

Talk about willfully blind.

--Jaylemurph

The items you note do not add any useful evidence to the discussion, just opinions from people with a belief that all crop designs are manmade.

Not being a 'believer' I prefer to look at the facts, facts that 'believers' ignore which is what being Willfully Blind is all about. You said the long pole with microwave on the end is 'foolish' and 'ludicrous' and I would agree with you, it is, and just one example of trying to find some  human explanation for what is a real mystery...the effects noted on crops in some crop circles.


#356    laver

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostMyles, on 22 May 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

That is the issue.   Your use of the word "probably". It is more probably that the long pole theory is correct than aliens. You must start with the most probable and work from there.   Not the other way around.

No. The 'long pole theory' is not just improbable it is plain physically impossible on some of the designs that have appeared. But there are people out there who will propose any explanation because the alternative does not fit their world view and 'beliefs'. That as far as I can see is just a clear case of Willful Blindness. Think about it because it is a very dangerous aspect of human decision making in other cases.


#357    Myles

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:29 PM

View Postlaver, on 22 May 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

No. The 'long pole theory' is not just improbable it is plain physically impossible on some of the designs that have appeared. But there are people out there who will propose any explanation because the alternative does not fit their world view and 'beliefs'. That as far as I can see is just a clear case of Willful Blindness. Think about it because it is a very dangerous aspect of human decision making in other cases.

Don't you think you should start with the most probable explanations?


#358    laver

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:43 PM

View PostMyles, on 22 May 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Don't you think you should start with the most probable explanations?

As already noted the 'long pole theory' and the like are not just improbable but impossible. Hence we have to consider unlikely but possible answers and the idea that some crop designs are not of human creation might seem improbable but is quite possible because we cannot find 'manmade' answers to many aspects of their appearance. This might be outside the beliefs of some who will invent impossible explanations for aspects of crop design creation but they are kidding themselves and trying to kid others into believing them... thats Willful Blindness for you...


#359    jaylemurph

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:27 AM

View Postlaver, on 22 May 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

The items you note do not add any useful evidence to the discussion, just opinions from people with a belief that all crop designs are manmade.

Refusal to accept someone's admission and account of doing it -- refusing to accept that admission even exists, apparently -- isn't some form of advanced skepticism practiced by the truly discerning intellect, it's exactly the same sort of willful ignorance you seem so gleefully to attack in others. Saying it isn't "useful evidence" flies in teeth of common sense: either you think we're very stupid and you can get away with a ridiculous amount of disingenuineness in dismissing any first-hand evidence you don't agree with or you yourself are that stupid. In any case, you're not being rational or particularly flattering to anyone discussing this.

Quote

Not being a 'believer' I prefer to look at the facts, facts that 'believers' ignore which is what being Willfully Blind is all about.

So you understand the theory, it's just the practice you haven't mastered yet?

Quote

You said the long pole with microwave on the end is 'foolish' and 'ludicrous'

I said no such thing. I made no comment concerning poles whatsoever. You are again either refusing to accept simple facts that are inconvenient for you or are unable to remember things over the course of a day or so, since you seemed to have understood I said no such things yesterday.

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#360    laver

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:56 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 23 May 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Refusal to accept someone's admission and account of doing it -- refusing to accept that admission even exists, apparently -- isn't some form of advanced skepticism practiced by the truly discerning intellect, it's exactly the same sort of willful ignorance you seem so gleefully to attack in others. Saying it isn't "useful evidence" flies in teeth of common sense: either you think we're very stupid and you can get away with a ridiculous amount of disingenuineness in dismissing any first-hand evidence you don't agree with or you yourself are that stupid. In any case, you're not being rational or particularly flattering to anyone discussing this.



So you understand the theory, it's just the practice you haven't mastered yet?



I said no such thing. I made no comment concerning poles whatsoever. You are again either refusing to accept simple facts that are inconvenient for you or are unable to remember things over the course of a day or so, since you seemed to have understood I said no such things yesterday.

--Jaylemurph

Excuse me

Quote

'And what, precisely, leads you to imagine I believe such a foolish thing? Or are you suggesting I /said/ such a thing, which is equally ludicrous?'


That is YOUR post of 21 MAY at 10.35 regarding microwaves on long poles

Crop Circles are only a part of what this thread is all about with the suggestion that they might be some sort of sign that we are at a time of Revelation.
It was posted because it might be of interest to other UM users and this would appear to be the case.
If the discussion becomes one of personal insults hopefully these other users will realise that this illustrates the weakness of your arguments.

I do not know where all crop designs come from, some are clearly manmade and some would appear maybe not to be for various reasons but it is a valid suggestion that they may be a sign of something very unusual taking place. That is worth a sensible discussion in a quest for the truth.





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