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Mind Control. It's been here the whole time.

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#331    scowl

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

View Postprometheuslocke, on 26 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:


No "mind control" involved. Just ordinary spying and surveillance.

Quote


No real "mind control" produced. MKUltra studied the use of drugs, hypnosis, and physical torture and persuasion. The studies showed the techniques were complete failures.

Seems like a waste of time and labor if mind control had already been perfected decades earlier, don't you agree?


#332    Quaentum

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:50 PM

Posted Image

Can no one see?   These are early light sabres.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#333    Quaentum

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:01 PM

View Postprometheuslocke, on 27 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Since we have ignored, yet again, my coherent and obviously correct explanation; and have now degenerated to a series of penis jokes, I will declare this argument a victory for Prometheus Locke.

Please, let me remind you that losing an argument is a good thing, if you wrong.  You may take away a sense of enlightenment, new knowledge, and a better understanding of the Universe around you.  

To all of you who wronged me, you are forgiven.

I'm so glad you're taking your loss with such dignity.

Yes, your loss.  You never provided any evidence of ancient aliens, alien mind control or even mind control at all.  What you did provide was 90% your belief that it was mind control (belief is not evidence) and the other 10% was effectively refuted by posters in this thread.  You ignored where you were shown that your belief and supposed evidence were wrong and that is your right though it does nothing to support your position.  That combined with the use of the fringe view that "everybody including those who have studied for years and decades are wrong and I am right by the power of my belief" goes a long way to making your hypothesis fail and fail it has.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#334    prometheuslocke

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:08 PM

View Postscowl, on 27 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

No "mind control" involved. Just ordinary spying and surveillance.



No real "mind control" produced. MKUltra studied the use of drugs, hypnosis, and physical torture and persuasion. The studies showed the techniques were complete failures.

Seems like a waste of time and labor if mind control had already been perfected decades earlier, don't you agree?

These are the things that were brought to the Committee to evaluate.  They were also told a significant amount of documentation and records were destroyed.  If this is what they did not destroy, what do you think they shredded?

Read the transcripts from the hearings, there was significant evidence from doctors, scientists, and victims which indicated that there was much more effective mind control technology available than "wikipedia" will tell you.

Edited by prometheuslocke, 27 March 2013 - 07:10 PM.


#335    prometheuslocke

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:09 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 27 March 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

I'm so glad you're taking your loss with such dignity.

Yes, your loss.  You never provided any evidence of ancient aliens, alien mind control or even mind control at all.  What you did provide was 90% your belief that it was mind control (belief is not evidence) and the other 10% was effectively refuted by posters in this thread.  You ignored where you were shown that your belief and supposed evidence were wrong and that is your right though it does nothing to support your position.  That combined with the use of the fringe view that "everybody including those who have studied for years and decades are wrong and I am right by the power of my belief" goes a long way to making your hypothesis fail and fail it has.

As you continue to ignore my arguments.  Nothing I have brought here has been evaluated.  Infact, from the entire groups reaction to my latest post (completely ignoring it), I would now assume that none of you had even looked at the images, or my analysis, prior to me posting it in the forum.  I guess that was my mistake, expecting you to "read" a link I provided.

Now that it has been presented to you in black and white, the only thing you have to say is "its a light saber" and "its a penis."  

Good arguments.


#336    DieChecker

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:04 PM

View Postprometheuslocke, on 27 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

I will declare this argument a victory for Prometheus Locke.
Especially since not a single person agreed with you.

Don't let logic and evidence get in your way.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#337    kmt_sesh

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:12 PM

View Postprometheuslocke, on 27 March 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

As you continue to ignore my arguments.  Nothing I have brought here has been evaluated.  Infact, from the entire groups reaction to my latest post (completely ignoring it), I would now assume that none of you had even looked at the images, or my analysis, prior to me posting it in the forum.  I guess that was my mistake, expecting you to "read" a link I provided.

Now that it has been presented to you in black and white, the only thing you have to say is "its a light saber" and "its a penis."  

Good arguments.


You've missed something quite obvious, prometheuslocke, and it's the fact that many people have stopped commenting for the simple reason that they're entirely underwhelmed. Many of us are also rather frustrated because, as others have repeatedly noted, you have not once successfully argued or substantiated anything about your claims. Numerous posters have systematically picked apart all of your points, and you have not been able to refute our counterarguments and challenges. The source to which you most frequently link is your own blog, and as I pointed out before, that doesn't prove anything in your favor.

So don't allow delusions of grandeur to lead you astray. In all honesty, you have quite stunningly failed to prove anything.

I myself am not done with this discussion. I wanted to return last night but did not have the time. Hopefully I can revisit the discussion later today or this evening.

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#338    DieChecker

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:16 PM

Yeah. You pretty much got to wait a week before claiming victory in a discussion. And even then "claiming" the victory by posting so, will more then likely re-ignite the discussion and end the supposed victory.

Edited by DieChecker, 27 March 2013 - 08:16 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#339    prometheuslocke

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:20 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 27 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

You've missed something quite obvious, prometheuslocke, and it's the fact that many people have stopped commenting for the simple reason that they're entirely underwhelmed. Many of us are also rather frustrated because, as others have repeatedly noted, you have not once successfully argued or substantiated anything about your claims. Numerous posters have systematically picked apart all of your points, and you have not been able to refute our counterarguments and challenges.

^^ all lies

So don't allow delusions of grandeur to lead you astray. *Snip*

I myself am not done with this discussion. I wanted to return last night but did not have the time. Hopefully I can revisit the discussion later today or this evening.

The fact that they pick them apart is irrelevant   What has been done, is my arguments have been disected, removing the entire gist of my point, and then a tiny detail repeatedly attacked.  This is not how you argue something, it's how you troll a forum.  Very few arguments have been made to refute anything I've said, though the UM gang does a good job of backing each other up, regardless.

I can't wait to hear your commentary on Harte and my description of the reliefs.  Also, please answer the posed question:  why are the kas depicted differently between the two.

View PostDieChecker, on 27 March 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Yeah. You pretty much got to wait a week before claiming victory in a discussion. And even then "claiming" the victory by posting so, will more then likely re-ignite the discussion and end the supposed victory.

That was the point, I was trying to point out that nobody had a single thing to say about my explanation.  Which by the way, contrary to repeated remarks from your UM egyptologist experts, have a significant correlation to the captioned heiroglyphs.

Edited by prometheuslocke, 27 March 2013 - 08:35 PM.


#340    kmt_sesh

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:01 AM

View Postprometheuslocke, on 26 March 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

The temple has been modified on the same site starting as far back as the Middle Kingdom, and continuing right up until the time of the Roman emperor Trajan.[1] The existing structure was built no later than the late Ptolemaic period.
The Middle Kingdom of Egypt is the period in the history of ancient Egypt stretching from the establishment of the Eleventh Dynasty to the end of the Twelfth Dynasty, between about 2000 BC and 1700 BC

I'm sure we all understand what "no later than" means.

...

The word modified is used, the crypts are that old.

I agree completely, there are reliefs that show obvious greco-roman influence.  I do not believe that has any bearing on the reliefs in question.

The underground crypts served as a sort of foundation for the temple. Inside these hidden spaces were stored about 160 statues, which ranged from 22.5 to 210.0cm in height. The oldest statues, made of wood, were buried in an almost inacessible crypt.
http://what-when-how...-ancient-egypt/

This is clearly the inscription corresponding with the first relief above: "Harsomtus: Words to speak of Harsomtus, the great, who stays in Dendera, the living Ba in the Lotus flower of the day barge, whose perfection the two arms of the Djed pillar carry as its seschemw picture, while the Ka's on its knees are with bent arms. Gold. All precious stones, height: 3 hands."  I do not see one corresponding to the second. Note the reference to prayer, explicit in the description.

.... I'm talking about magic mind control here, I'm not sure why we are discussing Edison.

I stated he wasn't depicted in the reliefs/scenes I was discussing, which he's not.  
Let's focus on my question in the post above, and see if we can make progress.

Let's begin again with a review of the Dendera temple. To be absolutely clear on this point, I turned to a sampling of the experts in the field of pharaonic temples—meaning, not websites but actual Egyptologists who are familiar with the Dendera site and its history. All are in agreement that the cultic aspects of the site—meaning the earliest temple or shrine—date back to as early as the Middle Kingdom. However, the extant structures seen today, from crypts to ceiling, date to the Ptolemaic Period and later (Wilkinson 2000: 148; Shafer 1997: 189; Dunand & Christiane Zivie-Coche 2004: 93).

A very similar situation is seen at Karnak, which is an even better-understood temple. It dates to at least Dynasty 12 of the Middle Kingdom (probably beginning with Senusret I), but what is seen there today dates mostly between the New Kingdom and Ptolemaic Period. Almost nothing but trace evidence is left of the original Middle Kingdom construction.

So it is at Dendera. On average its surviving buildings are much later than Karnak's, which is obviously one of the chief reasons that Dendera is still so amazingly preserved. This includes the crypts. It was common practice throughout pharaonic history to obliterate older monuments so the reigning king could erect new ones of his own, which is why so few of the surviving state temples in the Nile Valley still evidence much of anything dating to the Middle Kingdom. This is the case at Dendera. Just because the crypts are subterranean does not mean they are Middle Kingdom with a Ptolemaic construct on top. If something Middle Kingdom existed below ground, where the crypts are now, there isn't much evidence for it.

The crypt we've been discussing is chiefly related to Horus in his guise of Harsomtus. This is a Greek derivation of the Egyptian hr-sm-tAwy, "Horus, Uniter of the Two Lands." Almost all Egyptian deities served more than one role and assumed numerous manifestations, but few as notably as Horus. You've asked why Horus is not present in the scene we've been discussing, and I tried to simplify it by showing you Horus' familiar falcon-form in a different relief in the storeroom. The fact is, however, that Horus is all over the place in there.

There is no need to guess at it because the accompanying inscriptions make it clear. Below is a chart I put together to help show this. Of all the figures, only one is not explicitly named in the inscriptions:

Posted Image

As this demonstrates, and as the actual inscriptions state, Horus predominates in this wall relief. Ihi is a child deity often regarded at temple sites as the son of Hathor and Horus, although at Dendera Ihi is directly linked with Horus in the guise of Harsomtus (Wilkinson 2003: 132). The lotus blossom itself represents Horus as the new-born sun. The serpent within the lotus represents the ba of Horus. The squatting figures represent the ka's of Horus (more than one is shown because more than one Horus exists on this wall). Hathor is indeed the squatting female deity—your earlier skepticism that she can't be Hathor because she's squatting is, of course, quite odd. The only figure not explicitly mentioned is Heh, the figure on the pedestal holding the tip of the blossom. He is immediately recognizable just the same in this form, as the carrier of the sky and god of eternity. The baboon-headed deity Upu is the companion of Hathor and protector of Horus. And farthest right is Horus (Harsomtus) in a shrine, although the image is mostly faded.

These are what the texts themselves tell us—the texts cut and carved by the Egyptians themselves. That being the case, it would be futile (not to mentioned poorly informed) to argue against it. The passage you yourself quoted pretty much says it all, as far as that goes. This wall relief is a late version albeit typical cultic construct to demonstrate an important deity in some of his myriad forms.

That the inscriptions themselves and the accompanying vignettes are Ptolemaic in date are obvious on the face of it. You've been trying to argue that they date to the Middle Kingdom, but this is not something you would do were you familiar with the orthography and vocabulary of Middle Egyptian hieroglyphs. Common hieroglyphs of the Ptolemaic Period introduced new glyphs with new phonetic values (Woods 2010: 175), which describes the hieroglyphic plan in all extent portions of the Dendera temple.

You've been trying to convince us of something entirely different: that the bulb and its components and the barque on which it is perched is some sort of mechanical mind-control device. I know you're not saying it's actually a light bulb, but in the light of day your spin on it is no more logical in nature. You're ascribing a technology to a Bronze Age civilization that did not even posses electricity or complicated machinery so, quite frankly, and based on a proper critique on the extent evidence, your spin on the wall relief does not survive scrutiny.

In closing for this post, in your most recent post you asked why the ka's are depicted differently in a couple of the reliefs. I confess I don't understand the question, so please let me know exactly what you mean and I'll be glad to comment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dunand, Francoise & Christiane Zivie-Coche. Gods and Men in Egypt: 3000 BCE to 395 CE. Cornell University Press, 2004.
Shafer, Byron, ed. Temples of Ancient Egypt. Cornell University Press, 1997.
Wilkinson, Richard H. The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt. Thames & Hudson, Ltd., 2003.
Wilkinson, Richard H. The Complete Temples of Ancient Egypt. Thames & Hudson, Ltd., 2000.
Woods, Christopher, ed. Visible Language: Inventions of Writing in the Ancient Near East and Beyond. Oriental Institute Museum Publications, 2010.

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#341    kmt_sesh

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:19 AM

View Postprometheuslocke, on 26 March 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

uhh... wrong.  You also completely ignored the question.

The Egyptians believed that the Ba of a god could incarnate in different people.  Many are referred to as "Horus" because they were said to have his Ba (mind).  The standing figure is Harsomtus, one such incarnate of Horus's ba, who was actually his son. It was "normal" for the god to incarnate into the son of his last ... host.  This is a clear manifestation of the effects of mind control technology, explained by the mind of a single god being incarnated over and over in subsequent generations.

Just an illogical reading... "Horus standing holding Horus, who is over Horus and Horus... " really?

In my interpretation, we have Horus's ba incarnate in Harsomtus, weilding the power or effect of his ba, which is being used to alter the behavior of those under the "light"/ba.  In the relief above, you can see that the head of the snake is turned 180 degrees, because of the presence of the one you called Upu -- it is not in the first relief.  Because of the ba being "fought," the depiction of the ka's are significantly different.

...

In point of fact the only ancient Egyptians referred to as Horus were kings. This was based on their belief that the ka of Horus—not the ba—flowed through the blood of all kings. Horus was the patron deity of Egyptian kings and the rightful ruler of Egypt based on the tribunal of the Ennead. Therefore, Horus and the kings were one and the same: Horus ruled by divine right, kings ruled by divine right (in so far as they saw it—or promoted it).

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the ba of gods inhabited or possessed mortals and used them as avatars. The only place I've read this is in Rick Riordan's The Kane Chronicles. While I've read and highly enjoyed these books, the fact is they're written for adolescents. They're not academic studies, nor does Riordan present them as such. So if you have a means to defend this statement, please take this opportunity to do so. I don't pretend to have read all academic studies, nor do I pretend to know everything (far from it), so I welcome a citation for more information on this statement of yours. And by citation I don't mean a website but a proper, academically written paper, article, or book.

The fact is, the earthly abode of deities was cultic statues (Dunand & Zivie Coche 2004: 23). This is why the Egyptians made expensive statues for shrines and temples. They did not worship the statue, per se, so much as the soul of the deity residing within it. Pertaining to the ancient pharaonic texts themselves, the ba's of many deities dwelled in the heavens and descended upon cult statues; when this happened, the non-corporeal aspects of the ba caused the statue to become the physical manifestation of the deity—in other words, that deity's ka (Teeter 2011: 44).

Ancient Egyptians wrote of powerfully feeling the presence of the ba of a deity when near a shrine or temple, but that's quite different from being possessed by the deity. No, not mind control.

You're nonplussed that Horus should be showed multiple times in the wall relief ("Horus standing holding Horus, who is over Horus and Horus... " really?). I attempted to touch on this in my preceding post. All I can say is, you cannot hope to understand such scenes with a modern attitude and modern art concepts. The ancient Egyptians were not as linear or rigid in their religious-artisitc expressions.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dunand, Francoise & Christiane Zivie-Coche. Gods and Men in Egypt: 3000 BCE to 395 CE. Cornell University Press, 2004.
Teeter, Emily. Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt. Cambridge University Press, 2011.

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#342    prometheuslocke

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:38 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 28 March 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

Let's begin again with a review of the Dendera temple. To be absolutely clear on this point, I turned to a sampling of the experts in the field of pharaonic temples—meaning, not websites but actual Egyptologists who are familiar with the Dendera site and its history. All are in agreement that the cultic aspects of the site—meaning the earliest temple or shrine—date back to as early as the Middle Kingdom. However, the extant structures seen today, from crypts to ceiling, date to the Ptolemaic Period and later (Wilkinson 2000: 148; Shafer 1997: 189; Dunand & Christiane Zivie-Coche 2004: 93).

A very similar situation is seen at Karnak, which is an even better-understood temple. It dates to at least Dynasty 12 of the Middle Kingdom (probably beginning with Senusret I), but what is seen there today dates mostly between the New Kingdom and Ptolemaic Period. Almost nothing but trace evidence is left of the original Middle Kingdom construction.

So it is at Dendera. On average its surviving buildings are much later than Karnak's, which is obviously one of the chief reasons that Dendera is still so amazingly preserved. This includes the crypts. It was common practice throughout pharaonic history to obliterate older monuments so the reigning king could erect new ones of his own, which is why so few of the surviving state temples in the Nile Valley still evidence much of anything dating to the Middle Kingdom. This is the case at Dendera. Just because the crypts are subterranean does not mean they are Middle Kingdom with a Ptolemaic construct on top. If something Middle Kingdom existed below ground, where the crypts are now, there isn't much evidence for it.

The crypt we've been discussing is chiefly related to Horus in his guise of Harsomtus. This is a Greek derivation of the Egyptian hr-sm-tAwy, "Horus, Uniter of the Two Lands." Almost all Egyptian deities served more than one role and assumed numerous manifestations, but few as notably as Horus. You've asked why Horus is not present in the scene we've been discussing, and I tried to simplify it by showing you Horus' familiar falcon-form in a different relief in the storeroom. The fact is, however, that Horus is all over the place in there.

There is no need to guess at it because the accompanying inscriptions make it clear. Below is a chart I put together to help show this. Of all the figures, only one is not explicitly named in the inscriptions:

Posted Image

As this demonstrates, and as the actual inscriptions state, Horus predominates in this wall relief. Ihi is a child deity often regarded at temple sites as the son of Hathor and Horus, although at Dendera Ihi is directly linked with Horus in the guise of Harsomtus (Wilkinson 2003: 132). The lotus blossom itself represents Horus as the new-born sun. The serpent within the lotus represents the ba of Horus. The squatting figures represent the ka's of Horus (more than one is shown because more than one Horus exists on this wall). Hathor is indeed the squatting female deity—your earlier skepticism that she can't be Hathor because she's squatting is, of course, quite odd. The only figure not explicitly mentioned is Heh, the figure on the pedestal holding the tip of the blossom. He is immediately recognizable just the same in this form, as the carrier of the sky and god of eternity. The baboon-headed deity Upu is the companion of Hathor and protector of Horus. And farthest right is Horus (Harsomtus) in a shrine, although the image is mostly faded.

These are what the texts themselves tell us—the texts cut and carved by the Egyptians themselves. That being the case, it would be futile (not to mentioned poorly informed) to argue against it. The passage you yourself quoted pretty much says it all, as far as that goes. This wall relief is a late version albeit typical cultic construct to demonstrate an important deity in some of his myriad forms.

That the inscriptions themselves and the accompanying vignettes are Ptolemaic in date are obvious on the face of it. You've been trying to argue that they date to the Middle Kingdom, but this is not something you would do were you familiar with the orthography and vocabulary of Middle Egyptian hieroglyphs. Common hieroglyphs of the Ptolemaic Period introduced new glyphs with new phonetic values (Woods 2010: 175), which describes the hieroglyphic plan in all extent portions of the Dendera temple.

You've been trying to convince us of something entirely different: that the bulb and its components and the barque on which it is perched is some sort of mechanical mind-control device. I know you're not saying it's actually a light bulb, but in the light of day your spin on it is no more logical in nature. You're ascribing a technology to a Bronze Age civilization that did not even posses electricity or complicated machinery so, quite frankly, and based on a proper critique on the extent evidence, your spin on the wall relief does not survive scrutiny.

In closing for this post, in your most recent post you asked why the ka's are depicted differently in a couple of the reliefs. I confess I don't understand the question, so please let me know exactly what you mean and I'll be glad to comment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dunand, Francoise & Christiane Zivie-Coche. Gods and Men in Egypt: 3000 BCE to 395 CE. Cornell University Press, 2004.
Shafer, Byron, ed. Temples of Ancient Egypt. Cornell University Press, 1997.
Wilkinson, Richard H. The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt. Thames & Hudson, Ltd., 2003.
Wilkinson, Richard H. The Complete Temples of Ancient Egypt. Thames & Hudson, Ltd., 2000.
Woods, Christopher, ed. Visible Language: Inventions of Writing in the Ancient Near East and Beyond. Oriental Institute Museum Publications, 2010.

I'm not sure what inscriptions you are referring to, why don't you paste the text of the one you used to make your chart.  What you linked to earlier (http://doernenburg.a...ra/dend06_e.php) does not support your chart..

The story of Harsomtus himself tells that he had the ba of Horus -- though he was a different person.  There are at least 2 other humans who possessed this "ba" throughout the mythology I have read.  

I'm not telling you they said it was a machine, I'm telling you they said it the ba of Horus was manipulating not only those he was incarnated into, but also the kas. (Which are not attributed to Horus in any of the inscriptions I've read). They depicted this by using the serpent (horus) over the heads of what I would call "commoners."

Look at the two images from the previous page.  In one, there is a single ka, worshipping the image of Harsomptus weilding the lotus, in the one you posted above, they are "holding hands" instead.


I don't see a mention of Upu, at all, in the translation you linked to.

Edited by prometheuslocke, 28 March 2013 - 05:43 AM.


#343    Harte

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:23 PM

View Postprometheuslocke, on 27 March 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

As you continue to ignore my arguments.  Nothing I have brought here has been evaluated.  Infact, from the entire groups reaction to my latest post (completely ignoring it), I would now assume that none of you had even looked at the images, or my analysis, prior to me posting it in the forum.  I guess that was my mistake, expecting you to "read" a link I provided.


Not sure what you want.  I told you what was in (one of) your Dendera images.  If you choose to disbelieve these facts, that's your choice.

BTW, nobody is "praying" in either relief.

Harte

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#344    prometheuslocke

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:49 PM

As an aside, can I get a show of hands on this question please:  scowl, Emma, Harte, kmt_sesh

Would you associate the phenomenon described in Quantum Leap (Dr. Samuel Beckett), with mind control?

Y/N

View PostHarte, on 28 March 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Not sure what you want.  I told you what was in (one of) your Dendera images.  If you choose to disbelieve these facts, that's your choice.

BTW, nobody is "praying" in either relief.

Harte

and to you, what do the words 'on knees with bent arms" mean?


#345    sk8tan71

sk8tan71

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:07 PM

Posted ImagePrommie, I think this is a more accurate interpretation of that wall.

Edited by sk8tan71, 28 March 2013 - 10:10 PM.

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