31 replies to this topic

[Pyridium]

This topic is more of a mental exercise and will start with a few variable stipulations.

The speed of light is 186,000 miles per second.
Our Milky Way galaxy is moving at 370 miles per second.  Assuming the big bang began at a very small point, and our galaxy has traveled in a straight line away from this point at the same speed for the past 14 billion years, it seems pretty easy to calculate where the center of the universe is in relation to our own galaxy.

At a speed of 370 miles per second, and using 14 billion years as the beggining, our galaxy is now 163,356,480,000,000,000,000 miles from the point of origin.  It takes 27,700,000 light years for light to trave that distance.

We could now look at other galaxies and determine where they are in relation to this hypothetical center point of the universe.  27.7 million light years away from the Milky Way is my answer.  Wish I could fund this research.

[and then]

Since it's infinite, imo, the center could be at my belly button for all I know     but then, I'm not all that smart, so take it for what it's worth.....

[StarMountainKid]

There is no center of the universe. Everywhere is its center, as all galaxies are moving away from all other galaxys. As we look into the night sky, all galaxies are moving away from us. If we were located on any of these other galaxies we would see the same thing.

Because of this, the expansion of the universe, we cannot trace the path of our galaxy to determine a center.

[pallidin]

StarMountainKid, on 04 January 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

There is no center of the universe. Everywhere is its center, as all galaxies are moving away from all other galaxys. As we look into the night sky, all galaxies are moving away from us. If we were located on any of these other galaxies we would see the same thing.

Because of this, the expansion of the universe, we cannot trace the path of our galaxy to determine a center.

I know about the "balloon" expansion theory, but, was there no "Big Bang" from a singularity?
Even a balloon has an original "center of origin"

[Capt Amerika]

Right now Its in the kitchen.
Thats where my wife is and she keeps insisting that she is the center of my Universe.....

[StarMountainKid]

The balloon analogy is in two dimensions, there is no center of the surface of the balloon. Trying to visualize this analogy in three dimensions of space is said to be impossible, or at least very difficult for the human mind to imagine.

The big bang is not like an explosion that occurred at some point in space.  As we are inside the BB singularity as it is expanding, the center of origin is all space. The BB happened everywhere. There is no preferred direction in the universe, everywhere we look it looks the same, everything moving away from everything else. As this is so, we cannot define a center. Every point in space can be considered the center from its own perspective, but this is the local perspective from every point in space.

[Pyridium]

Under my assumptions, our universe started from a point.  Inflation forced all matter away from this point in all directions.  This does fit the balloon map of the uiverse where all matter is on the skin of the balloon and the balloon is expanding from the point of origin.

If indeed we do live on the edge of the balloon, I have calculated that the point of origin is about 27.7 millions light years away from us.  It would not be too difficult to find a few galaxies and backtrack its path.  I believe all matter is 27.7 million light years from the point of origin no matter what direction.  I would predict a single very large black hole still there after cleaning up after the mess.

StarMountainKid, a two dimensional thing is flat!  A balloon implies a center and the surface is expanding as it inflates.  Our universe is inflating at an accelerating pace.  As the balloon grows larger, the matter on the surface can only be pushed apart by the expanding surface.  There is still a center point to this balloon, all matter is on the surface moving at the same speed away from the center; therefore all matter should show the same distance from the center as all other matter on the surface of the balloon no matter where it is located on the surface.

I do agree with a lot of what you say, but that is a different theory of creation.  I am trying to test just one theory at this point.

Edited by Pyridium, 04 January 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[CRIPTIC CHAMELEON]

According to the big bang theory every thing is projecting outwards maybe just trace a line backwards about 13 + billion years you might just find it that's if the B.B.T is correct.  

[StarMountainKid]

If we backtracked all the galaxies in the universe to a common point, we would be inside that point, so how could we determine where that point is? There would be nothing 'outside' that point to use as a reference.

The 2D balloon analogy is a convenient concept, but it fails as an analogy when we consider 3D space. We are not on the skin of a 2D balloon as it expands, nor does the skin of the 2D balloon have a point of origin. No matter how small we shrink the balloon, its surface will never have a center.

In the same way, no matter how small we shrink the universe, the universe will never have a center, a point of origin. No matter how tiny the universe becomes, all of space will look the same from all perspectives. There will be no preferred point from which space will look different than from any other point in space.

I know it is difficult to conceptualize, but trying to find a center of the universe is looking for something that does not exist.

Edited by StarMountainKid, 04 January 2013 - 08:41 PM.

[Hilander]

I don't think you can determine where the center is.  First you have to know how big it is and I don't think we know that yet.  Then another question is did the universe expand equally fast in each direction.

One thing I would like to know is how it got started.

[StarMountainKid]

Highlander said:

One thing I would like to know is how it got started.

The Evil Vulgarians created our universe out of childish spite. I've said this before, but no one seems to believe me. But as I look around I can come to no other logical conclusion.

[pallidin]

StarMountainKid, on 04 January 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

If we backtracked all the galaxies in the universe to a common point, we would be inside that point, so how could we determine where that point is? There would be nothing 'outside' that point to use as a reference.

The 2D balloon analogy is a convenient concept, but it fails as an analogy when we consider 3D space. We are not on the skin of a 2D balloon as it expands, nor does the skin of the 2D balloon have a point of origin. No matter how small we shrink the balloon, its surface will never have a center.

In the same way, no matter how small we shrink the universe, the universe will never have a center, a point of origin. No matter how tiny the universe becomes, all of space will look the same from all perspectives. There will be no preferred point from which space will look different than from any other point in space.

I know it is difficult to conceptualize, but trying to find a center of the universe is looking for something that does not exist.

I beg to differ.

- The "backtrack" itself would be the outside reference point.

- Not all galaxies are moving away from each other. Some are actually in collision. Check it out.

- A Universe expansion requires, by default, a point of origin of the expansion; else "expansion" is impossible by definition.


Just my thoughts...

[StarMountainKid]

pallidin said:

- The "backtrack" itself would be the outside reference point.

I understand what you are saying, but this "backtrack" reference point is arbitrary, and within this 'outside' reference all galaxies are still moving away from each other from every perspective.

Quote

- Not all galaxies are moving away from each other. Some are actually in collision. Check it out.

Yes, but that is just a local phenomenon. Galaxies in collision and clusters of galaxies are moving toward each other, but If we view the universe as a whole, all galaxies and clusters of galaxies are overall moving away from each other. Eventually these clustering galaxies will unite, but these united galaxies are still part of the expansion of the universe, and will eventually be separated from all other galaxies.

Quote

A Universe expansion requires, by default, a point of origin of the expansion; else "expansion" is impossible by definition.

The way to view this is, the expansion of the universe is uniform from from every location in the universe. If there were a central location from which we would see everything moving away from this special, specific location, then this point would be the center of the universe, the center of expansion.

But we never find this special location. From each and every location we view the universe around us, everything is moving away from us. Therefore, there is no preferred location of expansion. The universe is expanding uniformly from every location we view it. Everywhere seems to be the center from which expansion is taking place, so there cannot be a central location that is special. This is the critical fact to keep in mind.

As I said before, no matter how small we contract the universe, we will never observe a center, we will continue to see the universe as we see it now, a general uniform expansion from every point in space. No specific point being different or special.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

pallidin, on 05 January 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

- Not all galaxies are moving away from each other. Some are actually in collision. Check it out.

StarMountainKid, on 05 January 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

Yes, but that is just a local phenomenon. Galaxies in collision and clusters of galaxies are moving toward each other, but If we view the universe as a whole, all galaxies and clusters of galaxies are overall moving away from each other. Eventually these clustering galaxies will unite, but these united galaxies are still part of the expansion of the universe, and will eventually be separated from all other galaxies.

It is possible to explain this "local phenomenon" using the expanding balloon analogy.

The standard was that the balloon is used to show the galaxies moving away from each other is to draw dots on the balloon to represent galaxies. Then as the balloon expands it can be seen that each dot moves further from every other dot. The problem is this analogy falls down if you take it too literally as it can not explain palladin point about colliding galaxies.

In reality galaxies have independent motion. The way I suggest that you can think of this is this; instead of representing the galaxies by drawing dots on the surface off the balloon, replace them with live ants. The ants are free to walk about on the surface of the balloon. As the balloon expands the ants will still on average be getting further away from each other. However, because they are free to walk about, sometimes a couple of ants will move towards each other, maybe even collide once in a while. As the balloon continues to expand, and the average space between the ants get larger, these collisions will become less frequent.

[Uncle Sam]

How about the bubble theory, the galaxies are inside the bubble. The bubble represents space which our galaxies are floating around in. Reason some galaxies are colliding with each other due to the rate of speed or they have encountered the edge of space. Due to this, thousands of galaxies are colliding and converging with each other to create new galaxies as well.

The Big Bang itself could have started by another bubble colliding with our bubble, which has a different set of fundamental laws that governing over its atoms. The new atoms introduced into our universe go through change from gas to solid state matter that rules our galaxies today. It has been show from the background radiation that our membrane of our bubble has taken a few hits, meaning we probably had multiple big bangs which added more matter to our universe.

Of course there is no way to know how many bubbles there is outside of our own, unless we actively puncture and leave our universe. For all we know, there could be infinite number of bubbles outside of our own universe that could collide or combine with our own...