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The Incas, explorers of the Pacific


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#31    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:12 PM

View PostScepticus, on 09 January 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Maybe look to the west instead of east??

:D

Maybe thats best solution, indeed.

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#32    Everdred

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:45 AM

Just some additional detail on stonework I found on a link from wikipedia:

Quote

Actually, no. There are several examples of extremely fine stonework on the island (at Vinapu on the southwest coast, for example, and at Vai Mata on the north coast). Heyerdahl drew attention to the stonework at Vinapu and it is similar to its Incan counterpart — but in appearance only; the Inca used solid blocks of stone, whereas the ahu in question on Easter Island is back-filled with rubble. More problematical is the fact that the earliest available date for Peruvian polygonal block masonry is after 1440 ce, while that for the comparable stonework on Easter Island is c. 1200 ce.

So the Easter Island stonework is over two hundred years earlier than the Incan work it resembles, and is back-filled rather than using masonry blocks for the whole structure.  I think it's likely that the similarities are completely coincidental.


#33    Abramelin

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:00 AM

View PostPersonFromPorlock, on 09 January 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Wikipedia: "Heyerdahl believed that the accurately fitted stonework showed contact with Peru, but both Vinapu I and Vinapu II were constructed earlier than 1440 and similar work only shows up in Peru after 1440."

It's also possible that one or more Easter Islanders got to South America. The Incas wouldn't have had any obvious reason to build a wall on Easter Island, but an Easter Island stonemason who found himself somehow living among the Incas would certainly have wanted to earn a living.

Yes, and the same page (?) says that the Easter Islanders started building these platforms around 700 AD.

But:

Rectifications in radiocarbon dating have changed almost all of the previously posited early settlement dates in Polynesia. Rapa Nui has more recently been considered to have been settled in the narrower range of 700 to 1100 CE. An ongoing study by archaeologists Terry Hunt and Carl Lipo suggests a still-later date: "Radiocarbon dates for the earliest stratigraphic layers at Anakena, Easter Island, and analysis of previous radiocarbon dates imply that the island was colonized late, about 1200 CE.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Easter_Island

And that date, 1200 CE, could make things quite different.

Around that time Peru was - before the Incas started conquering the whole west coast of South America - in a constant stage of war:

http://www.britannic...panish-conquest (you must read that whole article)

Many tribes were at war with each other, and I really wonder if people from the Pacific would be willing to settle there during that time.

I also don't believe that those megalithic Peruvian and Bolivian structures were built from 1440 CE and onwards.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 January 2013 - 02:12 AM.


#34    banskevie

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:42 AM

The Polynesians to the Incas/Quechua, or the other way round?Posted ImagePosted Image


#35    TheSearcher

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:46 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 January 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Yes, and the same page (?) says that the Easter Islanders started building these platforms around 700 AD.

But:

Rectifications in radiocarbon dating have changed almost all of the previously posited early settlement dates in Polynesia. Rapa Nui has more recently been considered to have been settled in the narrower range of 700 to 1100 CE. An ongoing study by archaeologists Terry Hunt and Carl Lipo suggests a still-later date: "Radiocarbon dates for the earliest stratigraphic layers at Anakena, Easter Island, and analysis of previous radiocarbon dates imply that the island was colonized late, about 1200 CE.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Easter_Island

And that date, 1200 CE, could make things quite different.

Around that time Peru was - before the Incas started conquering the whole west coast of South America - in a constant stage of war:

http://www.britannic...panish-conquest (you must read that whole article)

Many tribes were at war with each other, and I really wonder if people from the Pacific would be willing to settle there during that time.

I also don't believe that those megalithic Peruvian and Bolivian structures were built from 1440 CE and onwards.


Tribes might have indeed been at war with one another, however, if the people from the pacific, for one reason or another would not or could not go back and had no other choice but to stay? I mean the possibility remains.

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#36    Abramelin

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 10 January 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Tribes might have indeed been at war with one another, however, if the people from the pacific, for one reason or another would not or could not go back and had no other choice but to stay? I mean the possibility remains.

I also do not think they suddenly lost their knowledge of navigation for which the peoples from the Pacific were and still are famous.

Would they have wanted to settle in Peru? I am thinking of the Maori who were like any other people in the Pacific, but finally settled down in New Zealand. According to legends they did meet a tribe already living there but easily conquered them, and in fact totally destroyed them.

However, the situation in Peru was very different: from the article I linked to in my former post (from the online Encyclopedia Britannica) you'll get the impression everyone was at war with everyone, and also that the Incas did have a very difficult start despite the common view they sort of 'marched on', bulldozing every other tribe they encountered.

Is it possible a Pacific tribe sailing the seas did settle there anyway? Sure, but then they must have arrived in great numbers to not be wiped out within a month. They would also have had other things on their minds than building huge megalithic structures which would take a lot of time, men and resources.

A possiblity is that they were captured, and that their masons tought the Peruvian tribes their techniques. But if the radiocarbon dating is correct, then Easter Island was first colonized at around 1200 CE, and as far as is known now, these new arrivals stayed there. The next stop would have been South America, but why would they set out again? Easter Island was something of a tropical paradise before every tree was chopped down within a couple of centuries. It's possible some fled the now almost barren island in the hope of finding new land, but that must have been when megalithic structures were already all over Peru and Bolivia.

So if South American megalithic architecture was influenced by peoples from the Pacific, who were these people?

Did they settle in Peru many ages earlier, and they didn't come from Easter Island? To know who these people could have been we need to have archeological proof from some island in the Pacific (or further west??) of a people building megalithic structures way before - let's say - Tiwanaku. And in a similar style.

Or better: genetic evidence.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 January 2013 - 12:32 PM.


#37    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:36 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 January 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

But if the radiocarbon dating is correct, then Easter Island was first colonized at around 1200 CE, and as far as is known now, these new arrivals stayed there. The next stop would have been South America, but why would they set out again?

Easter Island is a very small spot in a very large ocean. We can imagine a large migration of culturally identical Polynesians, most of whom simply missed the Island and continued on until they ran into South America.


#38    Everdred

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:33 AM

View PostPersonFromPorlock, on 10 January 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Easter Island is a very small spot in a very large ocean. We can imagine a large migration of culturally identical Polynesians, most of whom simply missed the Island and continued on until they ran into South America.

I can't imagine they would do that.  "Come on, everyone, let's all sail east and maybe some day we'll find more land."  That's basically mass suicide.

I think it's much more likely that their colonization of islands involved exploratory ventures of probably just a few people at a time going out for a set period to try and find land and then returning to report their findings.


#39    Abramelin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:08 AM

View PostPersonFromPorlock, on 10 January 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Easter Island is a very small spot in a very large ocean. We can imagine a large migration of culturally identical Polynesians, most of whom simply missed the Island and continued on until they ran into South America.

I can imagine that too, but when did that happen?


#40    docyabut2

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:15 AM

There are no Incas artifacts on Easter Island.The island was most likely populated by Polynesians who navigated in canoes or catamarans from the Gambier Islands


http://en.wikipedia....i/Easter_Island

Edited by docyabut2, 11 January 2013 - 04:26 AM.


#41    Abramelin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:19 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 11 January 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

There are no Incas artifacts on Easter Island.The island was most likely populated by Polynesians who navigated in canoes or catamarans from the Gambier Islands


http://en.wikipedia....i/Easter_Island

Maybe this is the only 'artifact' the Incas left behind:

Posted Image


#42    lightly

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:49 PM

... just to show that there are Islands stretching all the way from  S.E. Asia .... to S. America  .. if your a good enough navigator and know how to follow  birds in flight.

Attached File  Pacific Islands004 copy.gif   56.24K   7 downloads   Attached File  250px-CL_Pacific_islands.PNG   26.57K   8 downloads   Attached File  navigator.jpg   55.92K   7 downloads



  *

Edited by lightly, 11 January 2013 - 01:44 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#43    Abramelin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:03 PM

View Postlightly, on 11 January 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

... just to show that there are Islands stretching all the way from  S.E. Asia .... to S. America  .. if your a good enough navigator and know how to follow  birds in flight.

Attachment Pacific Islands004 copy.gif   Attachment 250px-CL_Pacific_islands.PNG   Attachment navigator.jpg

  *

The people living in the Pacific were capable of doing all that, the question is only: did they arrive in Peru and settle there?

There are these legends (like the one about Naymlap) that hint at people arriving from the sea at the west coast of South America, but where is they genetic proof the really did?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 January 2013 - 02:07 PM.


#44    Abramelin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:06 PM

Posted Image

http://ancient-tides...t-american.html



Ancient Traders Sailed the South American Seas
Using no more than sail-bearing rafts, these travelers carried goods almost 4,000 miles.
By Andrew Grant, December 04, 2008


More than a thousand years ago, Ecuadoran traders were regularly traveling to western Mexico and back, a round trip of about 3,800 miles. And they were probably going by way of sail-bearing balsa rafts, according to an analysis conducted by Leslie Dewan, an MIT doctoral candidate in nuclear engineering, and her colleagues.

Archaeologists have long wondered why copper work and other metalwork in a style typical of ancient South America appears in western Mexico but nowhere in between the two areas. This absence suggested a sea-based trade, so Dewan’s group decided to explore whether such lengthy voyages were feasible. They based their mathematical study of seaworthiness on 16th-century European explorers’ descriptions of Native American trading vessels in western Mexico. The explorers wrote of seeing rectangular, two-sailed vessels made of balsa, a wood native to Ecuador, tied together with a hemplike fiber. Reaching about 35 feet in length, the rafts could probably have borne up to 30 metric tons of cargo—as much as 19th-century barges did in the Erie Canal. The team’s analysis, published last spring in the Journal of Anthropological Research [abstract], also evaluated the role of wind and water currents, concluding that the traders may have spent a few months in Mexico and returned when currents shifted.

Dewan’s team is preparing to sail a small balsa raft between Boston and Provincetown, Massachusetts, this spring. Their ultimate goal is to construct an actual-size model for the trip from Ecuador to Mexico—just as they theorize it was done 1,300 years ago.


http://discovermagaz...96#.UPAXo_JnYdM



Ancient Maritime Trade on Balsa Rafts: An Engineering Analysis

Leslie Dewan and Dorothy Hosler
Center for Materials Research in Archaeology and Ethnology
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA



Abstract:
By approximately 100 BC Ecuadorian traders had established maritime commercial routes extending from Chile to Colombia. Historical sources indicate that they transported their merchandise in large, ocean-going sailing rafts made of balsa logs. By about AD 700 the data show that Ecuadorian metalworking technology had reached the west coast of Mexico but remained absent in the region between Guerrero and lower Central America. Archaeologists have argued that this technology was most plausibly transmitted via balsa raft exchange routes. This article uses mathematical simulation of balsa rafts’ mechanical and material characteristics to determine whether these rafts were suitable vessels for long- distance travel. Our analysis shows that these rafts were fully functional sailing vessels that could have navigated between Ecuador and Mexico. This conclusion greatly strengthens the argument that Ecuadorian metallurgical technology and aspects of the metallurgical technologies of adjacent South American regions were transmitted from South America to western Mexico via maritime trade routes.

http://www.unm.edu/~jar/v64n1.html#a2

http://lesliedewan.com/projects.html


#45    Garibaldi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 08 January 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Abramelin,



It is to me incredible how people still think Heyerdahl was right when he has already been proved wrong, by Brian Sykes (The seven daughters of Eve). The Polynesians came from Asia (China and around), it is in their DNA...

Regards,
Mario Dantas

it is not incredible....most people believe the first thing they hear and dont seek for more information...

P.S: Finalmente alguem que fala portugues?





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