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Occum's Razor = some Crop Circles are 'real'


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#76    laver

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:39 AM

View Postbison, on 11 January 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Where does slight leave off and substantial begin?  A judgement call, I suppose. If you prefer slight, please substitute that for substantial.  Also a matter a of  judgement about how much ellipticity can be ascribed to error in a formation with a certain level of precision.  I have no one source for what I said about the ellipticity of many crop circles. It comes from studying the measured diagrams of quite a few.  I realize that drawing an ellipse is not particularly difficult. I am not aware of any indications that this was done intentionally by human crop circle makers. As the departure from round is not readily apparent, their reason for doing so escapes me.

Some people see planetary messages in the designs. The planets go round the sun but this is not a true circular path but an ellipse which might possibly have some relevance?


#77    bison

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:24 PM

In those cases where planetary orbits seem to be depicted by crop formations, their ellipticity could be an accurate portrayal of reality. Other slightly elliptical crop circles do not appear to be about planetary orbits. Ellipses may be considered more esthetically appropriate than circles by their makers. A circle is a special case of an ellipse, geometrically speaking. A circle is rather static, an ellipse lively. Consider-- the rim of a bell that is silent is circular, at least by design, if not in fact. A ringing bell has a rim that approximates a series of ever-changing ellipses.


#78    Oppono Astos

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:28 PM

The precise circularity, or otherwise, is usually down to the lie of the land; it had always been noted that natural circle formations on sloping ground were less exact and often had elliptical shapes rather than circular.

Who is the skeptic: the realist who won't accept belief, or the believer who won't accept reality?

#79    bison

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:56 PM

That, too, is a reasonable possibility, where the terrain admits of such an explanation.


#80    laver

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:35 AM

View Postbison, on 12 January 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

That, too, is a reasonable possibility, where the terrain admits of such an explanation.

Terrain seems a very likely explanation. If the control point for the circle formation is from above then what appears round from there would in fact not be on the ground
if the site has a slope


#81    psyche101

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:54 AM

View Postbison, on 11 January 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

The circular-appearing parts of many crop circle formations are substantially oval or elliptical. This is generally not apparent to casual inspection of photographs, but careful measurements have shown this again and again. The degree of departure from circularity is often greater than would be expected, given the otherwise high level of precision in some formations.


Many or the majority?


Is there a correlations, or are the happenings random? I must ask for your further experience here, I am unaware of oval crop circles being significant in both number and interest in general.

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#82    psyche101

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:57 AM

View Postbison, on 11 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

So some people knowingly created and submitted fraudulent evidence, allowing it to be believed that it was from a phenomenon with an unknown cause.  I wouldn't expect BLT research to be infallible in their determinations. This is on the cutting edge of science. The best scientific minds have been taken in by hoaxes at times. The Piltdown man hoax is a good example of this. Shall we dismiss anthropologists and paleontologists as mad scientists, too?

BLT are not infallible, nobody is, nor am I painting them with a broad brush, the article specifically states the people at the very institute involved with this particular study fabricated evidence, and then claimed it was actual evidence.

It's pretty straight forward really.

Quote

He claims to have filmed proof that circle plants Levengood said showed good evidence of the genuine
"crop circle making energy" were in fact from a fake circle made by Nancy's own plant samplers.


Do you feel there is an excuse for such underhanded behaviour?

Edited by psyche101, 14 January 2013 - 10:59 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#83    psyche101

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:00 AM

View Postlaver, on 12 January 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

Some people see planetary messages in the designs. The planets go round the sun but this is not a true circular path but an ellipse which might possibly have some relevance?

Is it conceivable that such intricate designs would be made to convey such cryptic messages?

It does not seem all that "intelligent"?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#84    Abramelin

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:12 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 14 January 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Is it conceivable that such intricate designs would be made to convey such cryptic messages?

It does not seem all that "intelligent"?

They're getting smarter:

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 14 January 2013 - 11:14 AM.


#85    S2F

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:20 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 14 January 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Is it conceivable that such intricate designs would be made to convey such cryptic messages?

It does not seem all that "intelligent"?

Conspiracy theory time!

Some crop circles are 'real' in that they are made by aliens, in an effort to communicate. The human made crop circles are actually an effort to communicate back and the tales of mischief and fakery are just a cover! The first steps to overcome communication barriers often involves mimicry. :whistle:

Seriously though, I'm surprised to see that theory hasn't been put forth before, it does make a certain kind of sense even if it is totally unfounded. ^_^

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#86    psyche101

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

They're getting smarter:

Posted Image



:w00t:
:tu:

Now really, that just does not seem to much to ask of a supposedly advanced species! Nah, we will drill a hole in a rock, they will figure it out!

Sounds like a far side cartoon.....

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#87    psyche101

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 14 January 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Conspiracy theory time!

Some crop circles are 'real' in that they are made by aliens, in an effort to communicate. The human made crop circles are actually an effort to communicate back and the tales of mischief and fakery are just a cover! The first steps to overcome communication barriers often involves mimicry. :whistle:

Seriously though, I'm surprised to see that theory hasn't been put forth before, it does make a certain kind of sense even if it is totally unfounded. ^_^

Wont the ones made as jokes that the "communicators" do not have control over throw a spanner in the works?

Maybe that is why the pagans got so upset when they saw this?

Posted Image


It's not the Government after all. It's them witches!

Edited by psyche101, 14 January 2013 - 11:43 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#88    bison

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:59 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 14 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

BLT are not infallible, nobody is, nor am I painting them with a broad brush, the article specifically states the people at the very institute involved with this particular study fabricated evidence, and then claimed it was actual evidence.

It's pretty straight forward really.




Do you feel there is an excuse for such underhanded behaviour?
   It's unfortunate and wrong if some people working on behalf of BLT research submitted fraudulent evidence. Science tends to work on the 'honor system', trusting, or hoping that all its workers will be scrupulously honest. This system is known to have broken down in many instances, across a wide swath of scientific specialities.
It's not at all clear how closely those who gathered the specimens in this case were associated with BLT research. Volunteers living in the areas where the crop circles occur submit samples, I believe.


#89    laver

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:02 PM

View Postbison, on 14 January 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

It's unfortunate and wrong if some people working on behalf of BLT research submitted fraudulent evidence. Science tends to work on the 'honor system', trusting, or hoping that all its workers will be scrupulously honest. This system is known to have broken down in many instances, across a wide swath of scientific specialities.
It's not at all clear how closely those who gathered the specimens in this case were associated with BLT research. Volunteers living in the areas where the crop circles occur submit samples, I believe.

The big danger is that having taken sides on an issue people can loose sight of the fact that what we should all be seeking is the truth not only bits of the truth that suits our particular side of the argument. It should not be an argument, particularly on an issue like crop circles which with one infallible piece of evidence could change the course of human existence


#90    bison

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:51 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 14 January 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Many or the majority?


Is there a correlations, or are the happenings random? I must ask for your further experience here, I am unaware of oval crop circles being significant in both number and interest in general.
I said many. I couldn't say if  they amount to a majority. The general perception appears to be that they are more likely to occur on sloped ground. A slightly elliptical crop circle might be taken for round, until or unless thorough measurements were made. Even if this were done, it might not be widely known. Link: http://www.cropcircl...icalView99.html





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