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Other side of gun ownership


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#76    docyabut2

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:02 AM

Well it does say more people are killed by accidents with guns then people killing people with guns, and what if there were more then one instuder would she have got enough rounds to have scare them away,and there so many cases where a person shoots at a intruder in their house but when the intruder runs out of the house and the person chases the intuder with the gun, police on call will shoot the person with the gun, there`s really no easy answers to all this gun control.All I know is everyone now days has a gun and you can`t take away the second amendment,The problems is you can try and take the guns away, but the bad guys will always get them. ,its seems like now days were still living in the ancient wild wild west.:)only more people are mentaly unsabled.


#77    Michelle

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:25 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 11 January 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

Well it does say more people are killed by accidents with guns then people killing people with guns, and what if there were more then one instuder would she have got enough rounds to have scare them away,and there so many cases where a person shoots at a intruder in their house but when the intruder runs out of the house and the person chases the intuder with the gun, police on call will shoot the person with the gun, there`s really no easy answers to all this gun control.All I know is everyone now days has a gun and you can`t take away the second amendment,The problems is you can try and take the guns away, but the bad guys will always get them. ,its seems like now days were still living in the ancient wild wild west.:)only more people are mentaly unsabled.

I would really like to have an example of when this has happened, if you would be so kind. FYI, anyone that has a taken a course on gun safety, or to get a carry permit, knows that you do not shoot if someone is running away from you. You are no longer in any danger and it is considered accessive force or murder.


#78    acidhead

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:13 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 11 January 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

Well it does say more people are killed by accidents with guns then people killing people with guns, and what if there were more then one instuder would she have got enough rounds to have scare them away,and there so many cases where a person shoots at a intruder in their house but when the intruder runs out of the house and the person chases the intuder with the gun, police on call will shoot the person with the gun, there`s really no easy answers to all this gun control.All I know is everyone now days has a gun and you can`t take away the second amendment,The problems is you can try and take the guns away, but the bad guys will always get them. ,its seems like now days were still living in the ancient wild wild west.:)only more people are mentaly unsabled.

Yeah... more mentally unstable people.  A population hooked on GOV drugs.  Go figure.

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#79    docyabut2

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:57 PM

View PostMichelle, on 11 January 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

I would really like to have an example of when this has happened, if you would be so kind. FYI, anyone that has a taken a course on gun safety, or to get a carry permit, knows that you do not shoot if someone is running away from you. You are no longer in any danger and it is considered accessive force or murder.

There was one I was reading but can`nt find it , is where this old man chased an intruder out of his house with a gun, but when he went out on his lawn waving the gun, the police came and shot him dead thinking he was the intruder, I thought how awful.:(

Here`s one case in the home..

http://abcnews.go.co...tory?id=8756441


#80    MissMelsWell

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:39 PM

I had an interesting conversation today with a girlfriend who works for the the district attorney. She's a paralegal. She handles public information requests, prepares documents for trial, etc... Her job is more or less to read police reports, redact them if necessary, then send them out to whoever needs them. More or less she reads every police report in the city.

In all her years of working at the regional jusitice center, in a large metropoitian area, she hasn't read one police report where a gun owner successfully defended their home with a gun. She said if it happens, then it's happening without the police ever being notified.  She reads about a lot of gang violence, accidents with guns, suicides, but the vast majority of the gun related reports she reads are domestic violence with a gun.

The topic came up because she'd been reading a report about a middle aged guy with a gun, who had no record, who had blown 4 giant holes though his wall, into his neighbors apartment  narrowly missing the couples toddler. He was defending his home... from invisible mummies (that's what he told the police!)  The police did take his firearms, 3 of them, and hauled him off to jail. Three days later, the mummy hunter was back at home chasing the demons in his mind.

So I asked her if he'll get his guns back and she said she didn't know, but it was possible he could. And then I asked her if he would get mental help, and she said no, he likely would not.

Here's my assessment... there aren't enough laws in place to keep guns out of a mentally ill man's hands. or an abusers hands, or a gang members hands, or even keeping them away from stupid and irresponsible people. Two, there aren't enough resouces and laws to help mentally ill people and people who are filled with anger and hate. The end.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 11 January 2013 - 02:47 PM.

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#81    freetoroam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:49 PM

View PostMichelle, on 10 January 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

It would depend heavily on the area! I know very few people that don't have guns and most of them have a lot of kids running in and out of the house. When our outbuilding was broken into and tools were stolen I was home. I had the police on the phone in one hand and in the other I had a .45 with a bead, through the kitchen window, on one of the guys that was a lookout. The first thing the cop said when he showed up was, "You do have a gun don't you?" It wasn't really a question because he was nodding when he said it. I didn't know how many of them were back there and my life wasn't in danger so I didn't confront them, but I was ready in case they did try and get into the house. I was furious to no end, but I would not pull a gun on someone for a few hundred dollars worth of tools and possibly endanger myself.
This is the sort of impression I have been given...I am not against it, purely because IF I were in your possition on would do everything in my powers to defend my family and property.
BUT, although I have come from an inner London area were guns were the street gangs preference as well as knives, it did not often affect the non gang members households. Do not get me wrong, gun crime has not been pretty here either, but no where near what you have in the States.
I have been brought up to keep a baseball bat in the right place for any unwelcome intruders and so far it has worked well enough without having to do any serious harm where I WOULD get arrested.
I do believe that once guns are allowed to be kept in the home legally tucked in the draw along side unwanted household bills, then we in England would be just going backwards in preventing gun crime.
But where you have a country were the law all carry guns, then the criminal feels justified to carry one too, hence so does the honest householder.....it goes on and on and on.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#82    Stellar

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:50 PM

View PostMichelle, on 10 January 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

Not if you have a responsible, well adjusted child.

I seriously don't believe that parents are unbiased enough to make that call, nor do I believe that a 15 year old kid should have access to firearms and ammo simply because the parents think it'll be ok. No parent thinks that it won't be ok if they leave they're gun easily accessible---if they did, they wouldn't do it. They make an assumption, and then sometimes that assumption is worn.

But, let's go with your premise for a moment, that if you have a responsible, well adjusted child its ok. Does that also apply to a 12 year old responsible, well adjusted child? How about 10? 8? At what age is it no longer ok on any case and why?

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#83    Stellar

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:53 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 10 January 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

You know there's a big difference between a kid who thinks he knows how to handle a gun and a kid who is taught well how to handle one. There is also the matter of how responsible the parents are and how they've reared their kid. Then there is the matter of responsible parents knowing wether or not their kid is sensible enough to be taught and involved with the gun in the first place.
I think for the most part that responsible legal gun owners far outweigh irresponsible ones so I don't think the former should be scalded for the acts of idiots. Most times when you hear on the news of a kid getting ahold of a gun in the wrong way it's because of an irresponsible parent who has illegal guns lying around. It happens in the hood all the time.

Are you serious? Now, when a kid accidentally shoots himself with his parents gun, the gun was illegal? Where on Earth did you get that from? Please, back up that statement or admit you pulled it out of your ass.

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#84    freetoroam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:05 PM

View PostMichelle, on 10 January 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

Not if you have a responsible, well adjusted child.
The majority of parents believe they have a well adjusted child, many a story out there where there have been gun deaths and the parent did not know their child was involved in any thing like that....."my child was always so good"!
Maybe they were, but if one member of their group is carrying a gun, then thats one too many. The parent of the "responsible" child is not always fully aware of what the friends around them are up to.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#85    F3SS

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:09 PM

View PostStellar, on 11 January 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

I seriously don't believe that parents are unbiased enough to make that call,

Some may not be but many are. You can have your nanny state attitude if you want but I don't think that neither you nor the gov should be the judge of that without justified suspicion.

View PostStellar, on 11 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Are you serious? Now, when a kid accidentally shoots himself with his parents gun, the gun was illegal? Where on Earth did you get that from? Please, back up that statement or admit you pulled it out of your ass.
I've seen it many times on local news. I don't know of any specifics to look up but I certainly didn't pull it out of my ass. I ididn't say always. I said many times because contrary to your belief most legal gun owners are responsible.

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#86    Stellar

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:23 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 11 January 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Some may not be but many are. You can have your nanny state attitude if you want but I don't think that neither you nor the gov should be the judge of that without justified suspicion.


I've seen it many times on local news. I don't know of any specifics to look up but I certainly didn't pull it out of my ass. I ididn't say always. I said many times because contrary to your belief most legal gun owners are responsible.

You say that... but I get the feeling that we differ in our opinion of what responsible really means.

And if you're going to talk to me about nanny state, then first go petition your government to remove age restrictions from everything. A mature 12 year old should be allowed to drive if the parents feel its ok, hmm? With parental permission, 10 year old Johnny should be able to bring a gun to school too. Is that what you're really advocating?

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

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#87    MissMelsWell

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 11 January 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

The majority of parents believe they have a well adjusted child, many a story out there where there have been gun deaths and the parent did not know their child was involved in any thing like that....."my child was always so good"!
Maybe they were, but if one member of their group is carrying a gun, then thats one too many. The parent of the "responsible" child is not always fully aware of what the friends around them are up to.

Trust me I cringed when a girlfriend of mine announced how excited she was that she'd bought a gun! Ok, great, but she has no training that I'm aware of, and worse? She has an 11 year old boy at home who is wildly spinning out of control and she is completely blind to that fact. This is not a household that should have a GUN! But she's entitled. This is not going to be end well I'm sure and no one can do anything about it.

Let me follow this up by saying I'm NOT anti-gun. I'm really not. I have no interest in repealing the 2nd ammendment, that would be a VERY bad idea. I'm not really interested in taking guns away from citizens, that would be disasterous... what DOES need to happen is a legitimate and serious unbiased conversation and action about the CLEAR problems in this country with gun ownership. Education isn't enough. It really isn't. Forced education might help... but the reality is that something has to be done... what, I don't know. But until the zealots on both side of the argument can come off their high horses, NOTHING will happen and more will die needlessly.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 11 January 2013 - 03:54 PM.

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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

#88    freetoroam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 11 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Trust me I cringed when a girlfriend of mine announced how excited she was that she'd bought a gun! Ok, great, but she has no training that I'm aware of, and worse? She has an 11 year old boy at home who is wildly spinning out of control and she is completely blind to that fact. This is not a household that should have a GUN! But she's entitled. This is not going to be end well I'm sure and no one can do anything about it.
You have just brought up an interesting point.....she bought a gun and had NO training?? Is this how easy it is in the States?
Are there no questions asked when a person buys a gun there, like, do you have any training or do you have a child in the house?
I would imaging buying a gun without training is like buying a car without having taken a single lesson, both potentially dangerous once trigger or steering wheel in hand!

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#89    Hasina

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:53 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 11 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:


You have just brought up an interesting point.....she bought a gun and had NO training?? Is this how easy it is in the States?
Are there no questions asked when a person buys a gun there, like, do you have any training or do you have a child in the house?
I would imaging buying a gun without training is like buying a car without having taken a single lesson, both potentially dangerous once trigger or steering wheel in hand!
A background check is still required.


#90    freetoroam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

View PostHasina, on 11 January 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

A background check is still required.
And what does that entail?  training details or plain old credit checks?

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.




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