76 replies to this topic

[jaylemurph]

lakeview rud, on 24 January 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

Searcher, it is indeed the same Barry Fell.  Nickolai Tesla claimed to be able to transmit electricity through the ground but we still use his alternating current instead of the (orthdox?) Edison's DC current.  Fell can claim the moon's made of green cheese.  If it can be shown that the dots and lines and other squiggles at Peterborough are similar to the dots,lines and figures in Sweden and the resulting readings make sense then it doesn't matter what his other claims are.  Of course," the test tells" (one of my old employers' slogans) so its important to actually take a look at what he's claiming in his book as far as the Peterborough site is concerned and then see if the sites in Sweden exist, are properly documented, photographed etc.
This one is fairly simple, it either works (all the time) or it doesn't.  As my wife likes to tell the story of her nephew learning to read, t-h-e is always the word "the" anytime you see it! As with Egyptian heiroglyphics there is a little bit of interpretation involved as this early language seemed to leave out the vowels so you need to read between the lines a bit but some other ancient languages did the same. It would be great to understand what the early beginnings of the English language sounded like and looked like.  As far as his other claims go, they really are insignificant compared to this if it pans out.  They don't allow photos to be taken at the Peteborough site but I will give a full report if I can get up that way this summer.

http://www.amazon.co...rds=anglo saxon

By the way, 1700 BCE is long before Norse (or even Germanic) languages settled out of Indo-European, so any putative king would not be able to be called "Norse" with any accuracy. And that's well before any attested Norse or Germanic written language, so there is literally nothing to compare it to. It would be like trying to compare Modern English with Demotic Egyptian.

Also by the way, 'the' isn't the every time you see it. It could well be the French word for tea. One word, one fact on its own is nothing. They both require a coherent context to make sense, and nothing which Bell writes provides that for his fatcs.

--Jaylemurph

Edited by jaylemurph, 27 January 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[lakeview rud]

Searcher, I did look at those links; none refer to the Peterborough site. I don't have the means to visit Eygpt (another topic which fascinates me) but it's about a six hour drive to the petroglyph site for me. I'll  undertake that trip when the weather gets better.  The glyphs have been there at least 500 years (experts estimate minimum 500, max about 3500)so another six  months shouldn't matter.  I think that it should be reasonable that I can discern whether or not a series of dots exists on that limestone mound.  I'll also check on the pictograms to see  how well they match the drawings in Fell's book.  Again, I repeat that the timeframe doesn't matter (yet) until its confirmed that the dots exist and that they match up correctly with the locations he mentioned in Sweden. If they do, then this mystery gets a whole lot more interesting.  Will let you know...  Best regards...Rud

[TheSearcher]

I'm not sure if the Peterborough site is of any importance at all, Fell never even refers to it once.

Edited by TheSearcher, 27 January 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[lakeview rud]

Hey Searcher, I think you're looking at some of Fell's other books..This one (Bronze Age America) has a couple of chapters relating to the Peterborough site and many references to it.  I took some time to try to find photos and/or drawings of the petroglyphs on the internet and there wasn't a whole lot of material out there.  On the few I did find I see Fell is sort of 'cherrypicking' his images and ignoring others nearby.  In his defense, it did appear to me that some of the glyphs were incised deeper than others.  It would be interesting to do a scientific study of the depths of the cuts on the 900 (!!) plus glyphs carved into the limestone to see if you could computer-generate the various depths to see if any patterns emerge. One item I did notice on one of the internet pictures was a 'spirit boat' carrying the sun god or solar disk in the center of the boat. The boat had a big honkin' rudder at the rear of the boat.  Not likely to be an Algonkian device but perhaps they had contact with the Maya or other Central or South American tribes. I did try finding a copy of the Vastokas book (Sacred Art of the Algonkians?) but no luck so far. There is enough on the internet that I can try to verify some of his (Fell's) images against whats out there.  Regards, Rud

[Swede]

lakeview rud, on 29 January 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Hey Searcher, I think you're looking at some of Fell's other books..This one (Bronze Age America) has a couple of chapters relating to the Peterborough site and many references to it.  I took some time to try to find photos and/or drawings of the petroglyphs on the internet and there wasn't a whole lot of material out there.  On the few I did find I see Fell is sort of 'cherrypicking' his images and ignoring others nearby.  In his defense, it did appear to me that some of the glyphs were incised deeper than others.  It would be interesting to do a scientific study of the depths of the cuts on the 900 (!!) plus glyphs carved into the limestone to see if you could computer-generate the various depths to see if any patterns emerge. One item I did notice on one of the internet pictures was a 'spirit boat' carrying the sun god or solar disk in the center of the boat. The boat had a big honkin' rudder at the rear of the boat.  Not likely to be an Algonkian device but perhaps they had contact with the Maya or other Central or South American tribes. I did try finding a copy of the Vastokas book (Sacred Art of the Algonkians?) but no luck so far. There is enough on the internet that I can try to verify some of his (Fell's) images against whats out there.  Regards, Rud

You are apparently not delving into the matter to any degree. See contribution #31 above.

As to the original research:

http://www.amazon.co...rnid=1294421011

Yes, admittedly a bit pricey in regards to casual interest. A text that is more financially viable may be the previously cited work by Rajnovich and Yerxa. Again, see Chapter 16 for specifics by Vastokas. This reference, in general, may assist you in understanding research methodologies/practices/interpretations.

http://www.amazon.co...okas Sacred art

.

[lakeview rud]

Swede, I'm "delving" as fast as I can given my time available and only a rudimentary knowledge of computers and the internet.  How about you "delving" into that big honkin' rudder I was talking about (you'll find it under 'Peterborough petroglyphs -wikipedia").  Can you give a reasonable explanation of a large rudder on a ship when the Native Americans of the time only constructed canoes?

[lightly]

lakeview rud, on 29 January 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Swede, I'm "delving" as fast as I can given my time available and only a rudimentary knowledge of computers and the internet.  How about you "delving" into that big honkin' rudder I was talking about (you'll find it under 'Peterborough petroglyphs -wikipedia").  Can you give a reasonable explanation of a large rudder on a ship when the Native Americans of the time only constructed canoes?

I don't know if this helps but,    'Viking' ships had large side rudders at the back  ...  Petersborough Ontario is nearly on Lake Ontario ?   .. St Lawrence seaway ... Atlantic ...

[Swede]

lakeview rud, on 29 January 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Swede, I'm "delving" as fast as I can given my time available and only a rudimentary knowledge of computers and the internet.  How about you "delving" into that big honkin' rudder I was talking about (you'll find it under 'Peterborough petroglyphs -wikipedia").  Can you give a reasonable explanation of a large rudder on a ship when the Native Americans of the time only constructed canoes?

A reasonable query. However, one of the difficulties involved is the assumption that the petroglyph referred to actually depicts a rudder.

First, one may wish to consider the actual structure of a "Viking" era rudder. See below. Numerous other examples are available.



http://www.google.co...9QEwAA&dur=2132

Secondly, one would wish to consider not only the pictography/symbolism of the earlier Algonquians but also the practices involved in the various inscriptions. To quote:

(see Figures 9 and 10). They both consist
of juxtaposed and frequently superimposed
images inscribed upon natural rock surfaces
without the use of artificial frames or boundaries
of any sort and without any pictorial elements
that would suggest either a spatial context or
temporal movement through space, such as that
so often afforded by explicit groundlines, or by
any sense of directionality other than profile
positioning suggestive of rightward or leftward
movement. Any sense of a bounded pictorial
field differentiating the space of the observer
from that of the pictorial representation is
absent. (Emphasis added).

http://www.ontarioar..._75_part_02.pdf

What Vastokas is referring to in the above is the tendency for different individual "inscribers" to, over time,  incorporate their own images into pre-existing images. You will note in the above reference the similarity of your "rudder" to the vulvar petroglyphs. This is where a thorough and qualified evaluation of the glyphs becomes of importance. The often subtle distinctions between two apparently associated glyphs can determine differentiations in timeline and methodology that are not readily apparent in a mere photograph. This aspect, in addition to the previously cited deliberate manipulation of data as per Fell et al. has led to a great deal of fanciful speculation.

It would be my hope that you take the time to digest the reference by Vastokas as it relates to a more in-depth understanding of Ojibwe/Anishinabeg pictography.

.

[lakeview rud]

Swede, I don't buy it.  You're suggesting that somehow there are two petroglyphs there, combining to look like a Viking ship.  You are correct in that a good examination of that area would confirm if the carving was done in one step or two.  With such an important piece as a "spirit ship" involved its highly unlikely that the artist of either the ship or the other item you refer to would have compromised the image that way. Moreover, you cannot even claim the ship was made by a Native American who was just "painting what he sees" (a possibility if the Vikings happened this far West) because its not a plain ship.  The artist placed their primary God image on it.  Would an Ojibwe or Algonkian have put their god on a foreign ship? If its indeed a "Viking" ship then a Viking of some time period yet unknown carved it.

[lightly]

.. could someone post an image of the ship petroglyph in question ?

[lakeview rud]

Sorry Lightly, I don't know how to do that but you can just google "peterborough petroglyphs wikipedia" and you should find it there. Looks like they took  a cast of it so look for it as a caston display. Since my last post I have been searching images of 'Sweden - petroglyphs' and to no surprise there are many, many ships... I even found one with the first and last stick figure (or oar?) on the ship slightly longer, just like the Peterborough glyph... and now I can't find it again.  There's also a pair of earrings shown which use the circle of the 'god' on the boat as the clasp..very cool.

Since clearly the way the sculptors (artists?) in Sweden carved boats changed quite a bit over time it would have been great to get a timeframe on the ship I just mentioned to maybe have a reference to Peterborough glyphs.. I hope you find what I mean.

[lightly]

Thanks rud ,   I somehow missed the boat glyph at first.   (if this is the glyph being discussed.. with the Big hocking rudder?  lol
 spiritboat .jpg   105.74K   18 downloads

   here is a link to a site with some good photos of the glyphs. *one of which features a different "spirit boat" glyph.   (all copywrited ) if that's a word¿

http://www.jwwerner....ETROGLYPHS.html

Edited by lightly, 30 January 2013 - 10:45 PM.

[Swede]

lakeview rud, on 30 January 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Swede, I don't buy it.  You're suggesting that somehow there are two petroglyphs there, combining to look like a Viking ship.  You are correct in that a good examination of that area would confirm if the carving was done in one step or two.  With such an important piece as a "spirit ship" involved its highly unlikely that the artist of either the ship or the other item you refer to would have compromised the image that way. Moreover, you cannot even claim the ship was made by a Native American who was just "painting what he sees" (a possibility if the Vikings happened this far West) because its not a plain ship.  The artist placed their primary God image on it.  Would an Ojibwe or Algonkian have put their god on a foreign ship? If its indeed a "Viking" ship then a Viking of some time period yet unknown carved it.

Am unsure of your rationale.

1) As previously presented, the section of the petroglyph to which your are referring ("rudder") bears no semblance to the rudders actually utilized during the time period under consideration. Nor is said glyph correctly positioned.

2) Your utilization of the term "ship" would appear to derive from the likes of Fell. Current understandings consider the watercraft depicted to be a larger canoe. This interpretation is supported by other Great Lakes region petroglyphs.

3) One may wish to be cautious in regards to "interpreting" the iconography of another culture from another time. This aspect falls into the realm of cognitive theory which, at its best, is speculative. For example, the utilization of iconography associated with femininity/reproduction/fertility dates back at least 35,000 yrs (in Europe). Thus, the association, by more than one individual, of two aspects of "sacred" nature should not be discounted.

4) And we then get to the more demonstrable hard data. As previously referenced, the Peterborough glyphs would appear to have been created utilizing hammerstones of the same nature as those recovered in association with the site. This factor is evidenced by not only the recovered hammerstones but also by the rounded edges of the glyphs. It is likely that microscopic evaluation of the glyphs would also reveal the crushing fracture signatures associated with such activities.

As referred to by Vastokas, supposedly similar depictions in Scandinavia (ala Fell) date to the Bronze Age and display more clearly defined edges as a result of the tooling involved. The "Vikings" of the period under discussion were very much a part of Iron Age technology. Thus, were the glyphs the product of Norse action, one would presume lithic modification consistent with the culturally available tooling.

Additionally, were the specific glyph the product of Norse presence, one may reasonably speculate that the format, placement, and association would be more consistent with the culture and the time period.

There is another aspect that has not yet been addressed in this conversation. Am short on time, but will attempt to bring this aspect to attention at a later date.

.

[lakeview rud]

Swede, I suggest you take a good look at the glyph in question.  The rudder may not be shaped like the one you pictured but I am not suggesting that its a later era "Viking" ship but an earlier bronze age vessel.  Perhaps there's a double meaning to the shape as the ancients were quite fond of that type of thing.  That being said the 'rudder' may indeed have proceeded the ship glyph but its placement at about the right angle in the right place and MOST importantly about in the center of a flat but angled section of the keel is quite telling!  That is NOT a canoe as no canoes have that type of feature.  Also notice how the angle of the keel precisely matches that of the upper portion of the rudder.    Also the stick figures having different heights (I messed up as its the second to the end figure that is higher on the right) is quite similar to Swedish petroglyphs.  You can look at Sweden Petroglyphs on Wikipedia but be advised that the ones they picture are from all over plus the earrings I mentioned earlier are a modern interpretation (sorry).  As to what kind of implement carved these, I don't have a problem with them being carved with stone tools as perhaps the sculptor was improvising with what was on hand.  There's also no doubt that there are so many carvings here that they took place over a long time frame so a mixture of Norse and Native Americans is quite possible.

[wolfknight]

This show is really lame. No prrof of anything yet. All theory.