Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* - - - - 1 votes

The right to shoot tyrants, not deer


  • Please log in to reply
96 replies to this topic

#91    F3SS

F3SS

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,305 posts
  • Joined:11 Jun 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa

Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:23 PM

View PostStellar, on 16 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Why is it that some Americans here act as if Americans own the rights to freedom and liberty? As if that's an American creation?
Say what? Probably because we've had more of each than any other nation and its pretty much our motto. I don't get your point. You're acting as if we aren't letting anyone else have it. Much of the world would be a better place if our lead was followed.
Or, are you saying that we don't own those rights? I don't mean exclusively, I mean that we don't own them so its we shouldn't be p***ed when they're infringed upon. What's your angle?

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 16 January 2013 - 11:25 PM.

Posted Image

#92    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,412 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:26 PM

View PostStellar, on 16 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Why is it that some Americans here act as if Americans own the rights to freedom and liberty? As if that's an American creation?
Which Americans would that be, and what did they say to make you ask such a thing?

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#93    Drayno

Drayno

    Reverend Dudemeister

  • Member
  • 3,679 posts
  • Joined:18 Jan 2008
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:36 PM

View PostStellar, on 16 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Why is it that some Americans here act as if Americans own the rights to freedom and liberty? As if that's an American creation?

Rights and liberty are of course, not an American creation. They have existed as concepts or actions for as long as man has.

What made America great, however, is that the American creation was the protection of rights to freedom and liberty.

"One leader, one people, signifies one master and millions of slaves." - Camus

#94    Sir Wearer of Hats

Sir Wearer of Hats

    Is not a number!

  • Member
  • 9,943 posts
  • Joined:08 Nov 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queensland, Australia.

Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:38 PM

isn't the Bill of Rights based, in part, on the French Declaration of the Rights of Man from during the French Revolution?


#95    Stellar

Stellar

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 14,813 posts
  • Joined:27 Apr 2004
  • Gender:Male

  • The objective of war is not to die for your country. It's to make the other son of a b**** die for his!
    -Patton

Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:44 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 16 January 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Say what? Probably because we've had more of each than any other nation and its pretty much our motto. I don't get your point. You're acting as if we aren't letting anyone else have it. Much of the world would be a better place if our lead was followed.
Or, are you saying that we don't own those rights? I don't mean exclusively, I mean that we don't own them so its we shouldn't be p***ed when they're infringed upon. What's your angle?

Well, my angle is simply that I feel that the way certain people talk, liberty and freedom wouldn't exist without the US, and that I am somewhat less free because I don't live in the US.

Quote

Which Americans would that be, and what did they say to make you ask such a thing?      

Well, most recently it was Mr Fess when he said that the US has had more freedom and liberty than any other country. I do not feel less free than people in the US.

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

----Seraphina

#96    Drayno

Drayno

    Reverend Dudemeister

  • Member
  • 3,679 posts
  • Joined:18 Jan 2008
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:48 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 16 January 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

isn't the Bill of Rights based, in part, on the French Declaration of the Rights of Man from during the French Revolution?

The Declaration of the Rights of Man was preceded by the proposal for a Bill of Rights by five days.

Thomas Jefferson was the ambassador to France at the time.

Both documents were influenced by the notion of Natural Rights; Locke's beliefs of Life, Liberty, and Estate were instrumental.

France was directly involved in our initial success as a nation; bankrolling the Continental Army, aiding us in battle against the English, giving philosophical ideas from the likes of Voltaire, Rousseau, Montesquieu - that were integrated into the foundation of our government.. In many ways, the United States owes France.

Both France and the US, at the late 18th century, experienced physical revolutions against their governments, and metaphysical revolutions in their ideas.

Ironic isn't it?

The American Revolution was not possible without French participation in the war, the American government wasn't possible without French ideas, and the French Revolution would not have happened had the American Revolution not inspired them how to go about rebelling. I recall that the French asked for US aid during their revolution, but we ignored them to not entangle our new nation in foreign wars. We repaid France, I believe, by liberating them from Germany.

Edited by Eonwe, 16 January 2013 - 11:53 PM.

"One leader, one people, signifies one master and millions of slaves." - Camus

#97    F3SS

F3SS

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,305 posts
  • Joined:11 Jun 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa

Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:03 AM

View PostStellar, on 16 January 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:



Well, my angle is simply that I feel that the way certain people talk, liberty and freedom wouldn't exist without the US, and that I am somewhat less free because I don't live in the US.



Well, most recently it was Mr Fess when he said that the US has had more freedom and liberty than any other country. I do not feel less free than people in the US.
Your angle is arguable. We made a grand stand and set a grand example. You never say where it is you are from but what it sounds like you are saying is that we need to be like where you're from because you feel free and you feel your laws are just and ours aren't and you know better because all is well in your land. But about the way we talk... We, expect liberals, are the proudest most patriotic citizens you could imagine. We don't ask for much and we give all we can and more. When outsiders are so adamant about telling us to change we become so much more adamant about telling them how great this land is. You know when you have family business and maybe your family is fighting like crazy? How do you react if an outsider makes it their business to get into yours. The outsider says "you guys are crazy and violent and you fight all the time. You need to stop fighting because its not normal and you're scaring people." I'll bet your reaction would be to tell them where to go and they have no idea what you and your family is like and things aren't as bad as they make them out to be.
But, I'll say again. We do have more freedom and liberty than anyone. At least we had it and many of us are jacked because every other day Barack Obama or someone else on the hill wants to enact a new law, a new tax, a new regulation, a new way to spend money we don't have then tell us we are responsible for paying for it wether we like it or not and our paychecks are significantly smaller this year due to broken promises and pure deceit and irresponsibility and on top of that we soon have to buy a product we may not want or pay a severe penalty, we are breaking our necks just to give them so much of our paychecks while the cst of living is always going up, a new way to be an intrusive part of our lives, a new way to to tell us how to live, a new way to tell us to be more like Europe, a new way to tell us we need to apologize to the world and tolerate those who hate us.
So yea, tensions are high and we are aggravated. Our president keeps finding ways to divide us with words and actions and when outsiders start chiming in about our affairs it makes some of us cranky. I ain't telling you to stop. I'm just telling you what's up.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 17 January 2013 - 02:04 AM.

Posted Image

#98    ExpandMyMind

ExpandMyMind

    Telekinetic

  • Closed
  • 6,628 posts
  • Joined:23 Jan 2009

Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:31 AM

View PostYamato, on 16 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

The video doesn't exactly support your statements below it when the actor portrayed by Jeff Bridges Daniels admits that the US "sure used to be" the greatest country in the world.

Even today, we're the greatest in the world in GDP, a fourth item to add to Daniel's list of three.   And what makes us, and what made us, the greatest country in the world is our Constitution.  Our understanding that liberty is already endowed, not handed down to us by a few powerful men sitting around a table or a single powerful man sitting on his magic chair.

Yeah I'm aware that he says the U.S. used to be the greatest, but in reality it still never really was - it just had an unchallenged press that spewed all the 'freedom and liberty' nonsense along with 'down with communism' which is what allowed you to annihilate the peasants of countries like Vietnam and North Korea so efficiently. Granted though, it has been a lot better for its own people in the past than it is now, though it still allowed silly laws like Prohibition to be passed, didn't it?
The main point of posting the video was to show how ridiculous an opinion this is to have - to believe that the U.S. is as Fess portrayed it. Aye, GDP is also the highest, but what exactly does that mean for its people? For the U.S., that has one of the worst relative poverty statistics in the developed world, all it means is that it has a group of super-rich elite people and corporations that skew the statistics, grossly I might add. Just take a look at the disparity between the mean and median averages of income distribution:

Attached File  Untitled.png   488.24K   2 downloads
http://en.wikipedia....th_distribution

This means, basically, that the country isn't the super rich country it is made out to be, not on any local level. It means that it is a country that governs almost entirely for its super-rich, at the expense of the poor - this is how statistics end up as insanely warped as this. Though it is still a better place to live in than a most, if not all, of the Third and Developing World, there can be no doubt.

Yeah, a constitution that has allowed your country to effectively pillage weaker countries around the World since its inception. Don't get me wrong, it does a fair job of protecting your rights, to an extent, but so do many other countries' laws and constitutions. Why do you think you are somehow unique? And separated from the rest of the World by this? And while it seems to help protect your liberties and freedoms, where is it for the peoples' you have robbed over the generations? How can a constitution be so great for freedom and liberty when it allowed you to rob Mexico of theirs when it comes to Texas and California? Or the Hawaiians of theirs? Or the countless countries I know for a fact you know about, Yamato, who lose theirs due to your foreign policy? Freedom and liberty? Don't make me laugh.



And to those using the definitively straw-man argument of immigration: I did not say that the U.S. was a backward, Third-World country, did I? I did not say it was worse than the majority of Latin American countries, or African, or Asian, did I? What I stated was the the U.S. is nowhere near as great as some of the delusional people here claim it is. This is a mirage. A - very successful - marketing campaign. Of course it has high immigration, because it is markedly better place to live the the Third-World countries to its south. The immigration can also be partly attributed to the massive advertising campaign of 'Anyone Can Make it in America' from the last 100-150 years, which, for what it is in reality trying to sell, is a straight-up lie.
Tell me, how many Canadians, British, German, Dutch, Swedish, Australian or even Spanish people 'flood' your country? And for a country that has a truly HUGE disparity between natives (white natives to be more precise) and minorities, in everything from the wealth to their treatment, your high immigration is hardly something you should be shouting about.

For the record, I don't hate the U.S., or its people. I absolutely hate their successive governments' foreign policy (along with my own), no doubt, and I loath the arrogance of some of those who buy into and try to boast about the falsehood that the country is somehow 'a bazillion times better' than all other free countries. America is great in so many respects, and I respect it and its people a great deal for these positives, but to ignore that there is a massive amount also wrong with your country, instead being blinded with the narrative of 'America the Great', etc, is akin to ignoring a large lump on your testicle.

Go get it checked.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 17 January 2013 - 10:53 AM.


#99    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,412 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:46 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 17 January 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Yeah I'm aware that he says the U.S. used to be the greatest, but in reality it still never really was - it just had an unchallenged press that spewed all the 'freedom and liberty' nonsense along with 'down with communism' which is what allowed you to annihilate the peasants of countries like Vietnam and North Korea so efficiently. Granted though, it has been a lot better for its own people in the past than it is now, though it still allowed silly laws like Prohibition to be passed, didn't it?
The main point of posting the video was to show how ridiculous an opinion this is to have - to believe that the U.S. is as Fess portrayed it. Aye, GDP is also the highest, but what exactly does that mean for its people? For the U.S., that has one of the worst relative poverty statistics in the developed world, all it means is that it has a group of super-rich elite people and corporations that skew the statistics, grossly I might add. Just take a look at the disparity between the mean and median averages of income distribution:

Attachment Untitled.png
http://en.wikipedia....th_distribution

This means, basically, that the country isn't the super rich country it is made out to be, not on any local level. It means that it is a country that governs almost entirely for its super-rich, at the expense of the poor - this is how statistics end up as insanely warped as this. Though it is still a better place to live in than a most, if not all, of the Third and Developing World, there can be no doubt.

Yeah, a constitution that has allowed your country to effectively pillage weaker countries around the World since its inception. Don't get me wrong, it does a fair job of protecting your rights, to an extent, but so do many other countries' laws and constitutions. Why do you think you are somehow unique? And separated from the rest of the World by this? And while it seems to help protect your liberties and freedoms, where is it for the peoples' you have robbed over the generations? How can a constitution be so great for freedom and liberty when it allowed you to rob Mexico of theirs when it comes to Texas and California? Or the Hawaiians of theirs? Or the countless countries I know for a fact you know about, Yamato, who lose theirs due to your foreign policy? Freedom and liberty? Don't make me laugh.



And to those using the definitively straw-man argument of immigration: I did not say that the U.S. was a backward, Third-World country, did I? I did not say it was worse than the majority of Latin American countries, or African, or Asian, did I? What I stated was the the U.S. is nowhere near as great as some of the delusional people here claim it is. This is a mirage. A - very successful - marketing campaign. Of course it has high immigration, because it is markedly better place to live the the Third-World countries to its south. The immigration can also be partly attributed to the massive advertising campaign of 'Anyone Can Make it in America' from the last 100-150 years, which, for what it is in reality trying to sell, is a straight-up lie.
Tell me, how many Canadians, British, German, Dutch, Swedish, Australian or even Spanish people 'flood' your country? And for a country that has a truly HUGE disparity between natives (white natives to be more precise) and minorities, in everything from the wealth to their treatment, your high immigration is hardly something you should be shouting about.

For the record, I don't hate the U.S., or its people. I absolutely hate their successive governments' foreign policy (along with my own), no doubt, and I loath the arrogance of some of those who buy into and try to boast about the falsehood that the country is somehow 'a bazillion times better' than all other free countries. America is great in so many respects, and I respect it and its people a great deal for these positives, but to ignore that there is a massive amount also wrong with your country, instead being blinded with the narrative of 'America the Great', etc, is akin to ignoring a large lump on your testicle.

Go get it checked.
I despise our policies more than you, brother.   I can only say that we're great because of our founding document.   Our administration and interpretation of it has been a total disaster from the beginning and still is today.  Our government is rife with war mongering self-interested garbage.   It's baffling the faith people have turning to it to control our lives and our behavior in the face of so many horrifying facts.   We're the only major power to need a civil war to throw off the shackles of slavery, and Abraham Lincoln, the bloodiest President in US history, is the first or second name that comes up on most peoples' lists when they answer who they think our greatest Presidents are.   Our Civil War was a terrible disaster.   We should be aghast and ashamed of ourselves.   These major wars we deliberately get involved in (and more recently, start) should be ostracized across our media for what they are.   And these symbol minded flag waving "patriots" that can't wait to jam someone's kids into the next crucible need to put their boots on and go die for their BS political interests.  

I've proposed an idea for over 10 years now, which is to include a checkbox on everyone's 1040 to opt to pay extra taxes to fund the war effort.   That'll determine what the budget is for all this nonsense.  These liberal republicans can't look in a mirror and understand that the wars get paid for with someone else's money too, while they're blathering about food stamps and social security.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#100    The Unseen

The Unseen

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,774 posts
  • Joined:24 Apr 2007
  • Gender:Male

  • Whats out there?

Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 16 January 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Oh, my. Thank you for this post. I laughed quite hard at this view.



The fact of the matter is that the U.S. has never been a beacon of hope or the most free. They have, since their inception, been invading other countries and sapping their resources to provide the rich of the country with more money just like any other dirty, powerful country in history.

And they have never been the greatest at anything other than space travel and the Olympics and some other sports.
Oh and you fotgot one thing,KILLING,WE mastered killing,KIlling those who attack other countrys,killing those that Kill their own people and killing those that attack us,Not to mention killing ourseves trying to save others from being killed, Yup never ever forget about the killing.


#101    ExpandMyMind

ExpandMyMind

    Telekinetic

  • Closed
  • 6,628 posts
  • Joined:23 Jan 2009

Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostThe Unseen, on 17 January 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

Oh and you fotgot one thing,KILLING,WE mastered killing,KIlling those who attack other countrys,killing those that Kill their own people and killing those that attack us,Not to mention killing ourseves trying to save others from being killed, Yup never ever forget about the killing.

And killing those who attack oppressive governments you happen to back.

Yeah though, how could I forget killing? :D


#102    The Unseen

The Unseen

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,774 posts
  • Joined:24 Apr 2007
  • Gender:Male

  • Whats out there?

Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:39 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 17 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

And killing those who attack oppressive governments you happen to back.

Yeah though, how could I forget killing? :D
He HE,aint we some stinkers


#103    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 12 January 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

Did the revolutionaries have that right? No. Did they ensure that citizens did have that right in the next revolution? Yes.

How would you ensure freedom over a tyrant if the situation arose?

Hang on you have a Democracy these days.

If you dont like the way something is run you either campaign for changes, join a party and put your view across or even start your own party. Terrorism is unacceptable which is what you're proposing.


#104    Cradle of Fish

Cradle of Fish

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,583 posts
  • Joined:07 Apr 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Australia

  • "He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man." - Dr. Johnson

Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:57 PM

View Postand then, on 16 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Spoken like a true sheep.  The point isn't about winning.  The point is about standing on one's feet and standing for freedom not being a slave to a government.  Dying in revolt is one heck of a lot better than living on one's knees - for some of us

Gandhi did it and he didn't have one rifle on his side. The blacks in the united states weren't being fairly represented by the government and they didn't start shooting tyrants. It's true there were armed parties in both struggles, but who was most successful?

I think arming yourselves would make it easier for a tyrants soldiers to dispatch you. I also think a soldier is more likely to fire upon an armed rebel than a peaceful protest.

I am not a man, merely a parody of one.


#105    aztek

aztek

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 5,513 posts
  • Joined:12 Nov 2006

Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:03 PM

lol, guerilla war in korea\veitnam\iraq\afganistan say you are wrong.

RESIDENT TROLL.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users