Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * - - - 4 votes

911 inside job - for what?


  • Please log in to reply
4446 replies to this topic

#1621    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:58 AM

None of the "troothers" has yet explained why in the world the US government (or another mysterious organization) would go through the incredible effort, after thousands of jihadist terrorist attacks, to organize yet another jihadist terrorist attack, completely independent of the jihadis, and then blame the jihadis for it -- who of course happily accept the honor. Wtf??

That concept seems to be the peak of absurdity. If any of the local troothers can give a coherent answer, instead being obsessed with this or that tiny detail (along the lines of "Look! The moon looks like cheese! It must be a cheese!"), I would be curious to hear it.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#1622    skyeagle409

skyeagle409

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 31,156 posts
  • Joined:14 Apr 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Keep Your Mach Up and Check Six

Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:25 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 11 April 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

None of the "troothers" has yet explained why in the world the US government (or another mysterious organization) would go through the incredible effort, after thousands of jihadist terrorist attacks, to organize yet another jihadist terrorist attack, completely independent of the jihadis, and then blame the jihadis for it -- who of course happily accept the honor. Wtf??

911 Truthers are not in the habit of doing their homework properly. For an example, the claim that the airliners were modified and switched. I would like to ask them are they really serious into thinking that the airlines would ground their aircraft for many months just so they can be illegally modified to fly as drones? Another thing, the B-757 and the B-767 are not fly-by-wire aircraft, so how can they be modified and not attract the attention of the aircrew during their systems checks? In fact, how can you modify an airliner and not attract the attention of the mechanics and inspectors? But most of all, how are  you going to switch an airliner anyway and not account for the passengers and crew of the original airliner? 911 Truthers do not think of little things like that.

It would take me less than 30 minutes to reveal a switched aircraft because each aircraft is unique. In other words, no two aircraft are alike, even of the same model. One B-757 of a particular airline will have its own particular fingerprint, or should I say, its own unique DNA signature that will reveal its true identity.

Another question; how  can they expect to switch an airliner in controlled airspace without setting off the alarm bells in the air traffic control room? A switch cannot be made at the airport either because if a bogus United 175 was to land or takeoff from the same airport where the true United 175 is located, that will have the FAA, FBI, police, and United officials scrambling after that bogus United 175. After all, who is going to pay for its landing, ramp or gate fees? Surely, no one is going to expect United Airlines to pay its fees when it is presented with the bill, which will draw serious attention from the airline if that were to happen. But most of all, how would anyone fly a bogus United 175 into Boston airport anyway? The alarm bells will be set off as soon as a flight plan is filed.

I can think of many problems that can easily reveal a switched aircraft, but I am very sure that there are those in government who would know what they are and would not risk imprisonment or the death penalty over such a simple matter that can land them behind bars. Personally, I think that 911 Truthers watch too many Hollywood movies and think that what they see in the movie applies to the real world of aviation. They cannot be further from the truth.

I have watched aviation movies and detected a number of flaws, but I have to remind myself that it is just a movie.

Edited by skyeagle409, 11 April 2013 - 05:09 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1623    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:00 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 11 April 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

911 Truthers are not in the habit of doing their homework properly. For an example, the claim that the airliners were modified and switched. I would like to ask them are they really serious into thinking that the airliners would ground their aircraft for many months just so they can be illegally modified to fly as drones?

Of course you can pick apart the details of the 9/11 troother arguments to expose how nonsensical they are.

But I don´t want to waste time with that. I would like a troother to answer the simple question: WHY?

Why would someone go through the trouble to arrange a grand conspiracy to simply add yet another jihadist terrorist attack to the long line of jihadist terrorist attacks that preceded this one? What is the friggin point? It is like carrying coals to Newcastle.

I would be curious if a troother has an answer.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#1624    skyeagle409

skyeagle409

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 31,156 posts
  • Joined:14 Apr 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Keep Your Mach Up and Check Six

Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:07 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 11 April 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Of course you can pick apart the details of the 9/11 troother arguments to expose how nonsensical they are.

But I don´t want to waste time with that. I would like a troother to answer the simple question: WHY?

Why would someone go through the trouble to arrange a grand conspiracy to simply add yet another jihadist terrorist attack to the long line of jihadist terrorist attacks that preceded this one? What is the friggin point? It is like carrying coals to Newcastle.

I would be curious if a troother has an answer.

I have noticed that many 911 Truthers are anti-government.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1625    skyeagle409

skyeagle409

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 31,156 posts
  • Joined:14 Apr 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Keep Your Mach Up and Check Six

Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:53 AM

View PostQ24, on 10 April 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

Supporting information can be found at the following link: -
NTSB Describes Importance Of Unpublished 9/11 FDR Part Numbers And Serial Numbers

Question! If an aircraft is involved in a crash that wipes out FDR serial numbers and part numbers out of existence, who retains FDR records of a particular FDR, which is assigned to a particular airframe? In other words, if the serial numbers and part numbers are unreadable due to the nature of the crash, how is a determination made to identify a particular FDR assigned to a particular airframe?

What two companies supplied the conversion formulas for the FDR that pertained ONLY to the airframe of American 77 and no other aircraft?

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1626    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 31,833 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:21 AM

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I see why you can see a difference but I really do not see a difference at all. The US allows for women and children to be killed but they are classed as casualties of war. Wikileaks release of the classified Iraq War Logs showed that over 150,000 people died a violent death with 122,000 being innocent civilians. Although the US armies didn't directly kill all of these people, they are still culpable.

After the overthrowing Saddam and the Iraqis realised that the US were not leaving, the Sunni and Shia's were united against the occupation and even held marches against the occupation back in 2004. Even the Sadrist and Sunni MPs were united. There was no civil war but the US couldn't have that. Sunnis were soon banned from employment in major enterprises and Lewis Paul Bremer dissolved 400,000 former soldiers putting them out of work which helped create an insurgency. The coalition was collaborating with Shia extremists known as the Wolf Brigade targeting Sunni civilians, the Iraqis were more terrified of Wolf Brigade than the occupying forces. Then in 2007, there was a redirection when the US paid Sunni Militias they had previously been fighting against including Al-Qaeda fighters, to fight the Sunni extremists and the Shia Madhi army who are portrayed as pro-iranian. They have manage to divide and conquer by creating a civil war and help promote sectarianism. This would not have happened without US involvement.

You can't blame the UN or France for the responsibility of the genocide in Rwanda, you could argue that by doing nothing, they allowed it to happen, but that doesn't make them responsible for it. And yes, I would blame Putin for the killing of Chechen civilians. And I would also argue that US thinks the killing of innocent civilians as collateral damage, look at the van of innocent people that pulled over to help the people shot down by the gunship in the Collateral Murder video released by Wikileaks for evidence of that.  

Hi Stundie

My apologies for the lateness of my reply, I have been extraordinarily busy of late, and have been mostly doing shorter postings. I have been intending to return to this for some time to adress the points you have brought up.

And this is a good place to start, I cannot see how you see it as intent. I think the US is realising that War offers casualties, and they are trying to be realists and account for what has taken place. It is also not the sort of information that is published because of the situation with CT'ers. I do not think they deny culpability do they? But tis gruesome information is required to analyse a war, and Americas impact.

With the situation in the early 2,000's what do you mean by "The US couldn't have that"? The uprising had nothing to do with the US, these people were grateful for the help against the Soviets, but then turned on the US, like some sort of mass paranoia. Get out or we will kick you out! It seems rather ungrateful to me to be frank.
As far as I know, the terror of the Wolf Brigade exceed the US involvement, with even local legends about them, but the US only helped them in Mosul, and as far as I know, for a just cause. I cannot see much corroboration beyond this, and I think Bremer is as much a casualty of the press as anyone mentioned in this thread. Bremer stated that many soldiers simply left after the fall of Baghdad, some to protect their own families from the rampant looting. From what I read, the decision was not made lightly, and the others that were involved in this decision such General John Abizaid seem to have faded into the sunset. Bremer claims they did consider two alternatives: To recall the old army or to rebuild a new army with "both vetted members of the old army and new recruits." According to Bremer, Abizaid liked the second alternative. All in all, at least this decision has thought and reasoning behind it, the reactions from those who were rampaging is just wanton violence.

I agree with Rawanda, but I think the same applies to the US, if they could stop all civillian casualties, I am sure they would have, but somethings, like soldiers who lose it, are out of their control.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I agree that religion is not an argument. I think the term Jihad has been misused and misunderstood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Violence is the last option and that is where extreme forms of Islam come into it.
As someone once said "Immoral wars, breed immoral behaviour".

I do not think the term is misused, whilst it has many meanings, and I understand the ideal is a personal struggle, but this meaning is abhorrent. The Jihad to make the globe Muslim is not honorable. No matter how you look at Islam, I fail to understand how Muslims justify worshiping the Hadith. All it is is a handbook of violence.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

If the US did prosecute and treat others as they would like to be treated so to speak, then there would be a lot more people sympathetic to US causes but the truth is, that it highlights the lengths the US will go to, even if it's doing things immoral, to protect it's hegemony over the region.

I think that people taking religion and using it for the own gains and ends is something which has happened throughout history. Look at the Catholics church in response to child abuse it committed.
As I said, killing is killing and there are plenty of ways to justify it, whether it is for religious reasons, revenge, pre emptive attack or reason X. As for religion, it doesn't matter whether they are using a child as bomb or as a sexual partner, they are both abhorrent.

I see all religions the same, whether it is Islam or Christianity, they can be very good for people but of course in the wrong hands, they can be very, very bad. Not all Imans preach hate, there might be a few that do but we can't use the actions of a few, to outlaw something that is good for many other people.

Again, it would be like saying that because the Catholic Church didn't little to nothing to stop the child abuse and turned a blind eye to such evil doings within it's own society, that we should outlaw it.  

I see what you are saying about the US, but I think all countries and organisation try to protect their own, that is part of being in an organisation. And I agree, sometimes organisations make the wrong decision for what they call "The Greater Good", as with the Catholic Church. If you look at the support the Bali Bombers received for their murderous rampage, this is more than alive in the Muslim Faith just as much as it is in the Catholic faith. Peadophillia I agree is abhorrent, and to my way of thinking deserves castration at the very least, so does murder.
Too many Imans preach hate, but what gets me is these are indeed Imans, people in power, the Catholic Church covered up, and whilst that is abhorrent I agree, it did not promote people who outwardly preached Peadophillia.
When the Catholic Church was ousted, it was red faced, it regretted the actions, and made apology, and that might mean nothing to the victims, I understand that, but does Islam show remorse for Bali? 911? They could have done more to begin with, and I agree, lost their morals altogether when they allowed a cover up, but I do not see the crime as the intent of the Church, whereas those that worship the Hadith each and every day promise Allah that they will cut of our Western heads and fingers. How does one do that, and then state they believe in peace?

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I think this is a discussion for another day, but lethal injection is not painless.

http://www.newscient...m-painless.html

I know where you are coming from, but I cannot condone state executions, especially when they get it wrong. A prime example of that being Derek Bentley who was hung here in the UK. If we still had the death penalty here in the UK, the Birmingham six, Guildford four and many others would have been put to death when they are later found to be innocent.

Killing people is barbaric and its doesn't matter how it is done and I'm not a fan of killing innocent people.

I did not know that, thank you for the link, but I feel the link also explained the problem here.

But doctors and nurses are prohibited by healthcare professionals' ethical guidelines from participating in or assisting with executions, and the technicians involved have no specific training in administering anaesthetics

Trained executioners might be the answer to the pain question. I respect your position so I will not argue the point, but feel we shall simply agree to disagree here. But in favour of your argument, I feel eyewitness testimony needs to be seriously re-evaluated, the Griffith Innocence Project I feel is indeed direct proof of this. I have no doubt innocent people have died. The evidence must be absolute, not as it has been in antiquity.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I think he might have uncovered more than that, but unfortunately we will never know.

Indeed, and such a shame. I would pay money to know what he thinks of Truthers.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I'm much prefer the western society than that of the Islamic world, but just because I think it's better, that doesn't mean I think it is best for everyone else too. And even though I think it's better for everyone, I'm not a fan of dictating how others choose to live their lives, whether it benefits just the men. You have to look at what you call the benefit,  Islamic societies from many years ago had a fairly relaxed attitude to alcohol but as time went on it was outlawed and seen as sinful. Here in the UK we have major binge drinking issues, so I'm sure there would be some people converted but I'm sure there would be some that are horrified by the things that go off in western culture.

I do not just prefer the Western way of life, I completely feel Islam had it's chance, and has made a mockery of society  Being able to kill your daughter in this day and age for speaking to another non family male, or stoning adulterers to death should not be allowed to happen in today world under any law or religion. This cannot happen in the west, no court will order stoning or honor killing. It should not even be considered today, that is truly barbarism at it's very worst, and that fact that people have been brainwashed to accept this barbarism even worse. For me, that alone is reason to abandon Islam altogether. And it shows to me that the Middle East has people on power more evil than most US citizens could ever imagine. They make Bush look like a girl scout.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Oh I wouldn't say I was a fence sitter but I wouldn't call myself a CTer either. I swing more of the way of a conspiracy being true than the official story but I'm open to all possibilities.

As I've said before, I had no reason to doubt the official story and it wasn't until I watched a great documentary called The Power of Nightmares that made me question it. There was a part in it where British troops were in the Tora Bora looking for Bin Laden and being sent by Americans to various locations, only to find startled sheep herders and that there was a suspicion that Bin Laden was given a safe passage to Pakistan. (This was back in 2006!) That is when I really started questioning it. I think the whole Iraq has WMDs and the case made by Blair for the UK involvement had already made me think, if they can lie about this, what else could/are they lying about.

Give me time :P

Thank you for the title, I will procure a copy of The Power Of Nightmares, and watch it.

I have read quite a bit about Tora Bora, PBS has a program specifically dedicated to it in it's Al Qaeda files series as well. There was no doubt that Bin Laden was there, but there was also a high possibility of civillian casualty and repercussion. The risk was great, however, altercation was still to be had. The plan was to only keep 800 US boots on Pakistan soil. Some called it a plan, some called it military incompetence, in the end however, the traget was acquired.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I do not believe the official story to be true based on my own investigation and research, this doesn't mean that I automatically think there is a conspiracy either, all it means is that I think it's a possibility. It could also be possible that the official story is true too, but I'm not really seeing the evidence to support it.

What threw it for me was the movement and actions of those in power like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. Other than Bush, all of there accounts from the moment the first plane hit to the last one (If a plane crashed at Shanksville... ;)...lol) are sketchy to say the least and I would call them criminally negligent. But again, it's a discussion for another day.

Part two coming up.....lol

I guess it depends on what official story that is, at the end of the day, I think it is well proven that some maniac religious zealots killed a great many people for a religious war, that started with the US helping the middle east stay safe from the Soviets. Really, they should have pet the Soviets sort the problem.
I am not surprised that some details are sketchy, I doubt these men ever envisaged themselves coming into this situation. They probably did make a few things up too look good, but I do not see that as supporting the Truther Movement. Those guys have no morals, and are almost as bad the the fundies themselves.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#1627    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:41 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 11 April 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I do not think the term is misused, whilst it has many meanings, and I understand the ideal is a personal struggle, but this meaning is abhorrent.

"Jihad" simply means "struggle". That includes both personal struggle as well as armed violence. There is no particular limit in the term; only the islamopologists want you to believe that islamic jihad is always peaceful. Duh! The world is brimming with violent jihadist groups, typically lead by clerics who have studied the koran and hadith more intensively than you ever will.

View Postpsyche101, on 11 April 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I fail to understand how Muslims justify worshiping the Hadith. All it is is a handbook of violence.

Because by definition, if you become a muslim, you have to worship the Haddith. The Haddiths are the sayings of Mohammed, who is the perfect man, and beyond criticism. There is no such thing as a "muslim" who disputes the Haddiths --- by definition! (Not to mention that your co-believers would kill you as heretic, if you tried to.)

Now tell us again: Why would anybody organize a gigantic conspiracy just to add another jihadist attack to a preceding long list of jihadist attacks (including a previous jihadist bombing of the WTC in 1993 by the way?)

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#1628    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:47 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 11 April 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

When the Catholic Church was ousted, it was red faced, it regretted the actions, and made apology, and that might mean nothing to the victims, I understand that, but does Islam show remorse for Bali? 911? They could have done more to begin with, and I agree, lost their morals altogether when they allowed a cover up, but I do not see the crime as the intent of the Church, whereas those that worship the Hadith each and every day promise Allah that they will cut of our Western heads and fingers. How does one do that, and then state they believe in peace?

That is simply a question of definition. I think this comment from Bassam Tibi sheds some light on the confusiont:

"Both sides should acknowledge candidly that although they might use identical terms, these mean different things to each of them. The word peace, for example, implies to a Muslim the extension of the Dar al-Islam -- or House of Islam -- to the entire world. This is completely different from the Enlightenment concept of eternal peace that dominates Western thought. Only when the entire world is a Dar al-Islam will it be a Dar a-Salam, or House of Peace." (Bassam Tibi)

Edited by Zaphod222, 11 April 2013 - 06:49 AM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#1629    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 31,833 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:01 AM

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I do not really follow any particular conspiracy theorists and I'm not really sure who they are to be honest.

I think it helps if you understand that these people are like me and do not think the official story is true, I do not know what they are claiming, whether they think no planes hit the WTC or whether it was a laser beam, but it might help you understand that the reason these people think the way they do is because they do not believe in the official story.

Again, I do not have a hatred of those who gain from 9/11 conspiracies, even if there conspiracy theories are bonkers because if we look at what others had to gain from 9/11 as a whole, what these guys earn is peanuts in comparison to the money being earned by those in power who had more to gain from it.

I must say I envy you not knowing who those people are.

My problem with the Truthers is they are hurting people who have already suffered. The faces I posted make claims such as these people are still alive, nobody was killed, it was all set up. Those who lost loved one's in this insanity do not deserve this. They have suffered enough. All they are doing is hurting people. They are not making any progress, they have not made one validated claim, like the Sandy Hook Truthers, I cannot see this bunch of loud mouthed red faced people making a difference, they are only causing more pain.

I do not see them like you, and I do not seem the accepting rational explanations at any time in the future.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

But its not just her, there are plenty of others who have not been held accountable for screw ups.

I do feel she is a strong key. Had she done her ob properly, I have little doubt there was good reason to believe 911 may well have been as successful as Bojinka.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I would have to disagree, of course there are some delusional conspiracy theorists but there are plenty of rational, logical people who believe in the 9/11 theories too.

I think that to tar most of them with the same brush is just a simple way of dismissing arguments which may have validity. There are plenty who do have engineering capabilities and will tell you that the WTC was a controlled demolition, I certainly believe it was possible, more possible than the official collapse theory.

I do not know who Bee is??

I would also say that instead of taking the attitude that all of the thermite and even laser beams theories do not hold water is to look at it like a true skeptic. In otherwords, don't hold any thing as true and work with possibilities and I'll assure you that you will see some validity to the claims.

OK, maybe not the laser beam, but I am open enough to accept the possibility, even though I think  there truly isn't any chance of the laser beams being used.
I understand that religion is strong motivator and I'm sure there were many cheering when the towers collapsed. I would accept the bungled investigation argument but it appears that even the commissioners knew they were set up to fail.

LINK - Architects didn't show up for a 9/11-architecture-conspiracy documentary screening—and the AIA doesn't want its name associated with Trutherism.


I have not seen a claim that holds water. Hence the broad brush. The entire CT as far as I can tell comes from Governmental actions, and to be fair, I am not sure why so many people consider themselves tactical military experts.

Bee is our resident Lady who tends to float with flights of fancy. If an underdog claims any scientific nonsense, you can be sure Bee will be banging that drum. Hence the Lasar beams. No technology claim is too wild for our Bee. But it is heartwarming to see Sandy Point was too much for her. She went up a step in my book on that one.

The Thermite and Laser beams claims do not hold water, I already explained the poetic license used with the thermite theory, and Laser beams are just not at a point where we can destroy buildings with them yet. If they ever will be. It's not true skepticism, it's knowledge. There is no reason to even consider Laser beams. Thermite's at least had an argument, albeit an erroneous one.


View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Why would something be set up to fail? You have to remember than the White House didn't want an investigation but bowed to public pressure from the families, then when they tried to set up the first one, they were going to get Kissinger to do it initially until there were obvious signs of a conflict of interest.

Not quite following you there, did I say something was set up to fail? I was surprised that the US would consider anything as not possible when it comes to war. Some cultures have very different values.

Lies can be hindsight too, and as far as I can tell, that seems to be the larger cause for any misleading information.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

But it's not even a bungled investigation, there was blatant lying which really makes the whole point of an investigation pointless if you allow people to lie or do not have the power to punish those who perjure.

Are you referring to a specific incident, or the entire Bodine mess?

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

As Skyeagle as pointed out, the idea of using planes as weapons was not beyond the scope of the US government, we knew of Operation Bojinka many years before.

Even less than a year before, the US military were holding exercises with a large model of the Pentagon planning for terrorist attacks.

Posted Image
There were even military drills of planes hitting the WTC initially planned just after the 9/11 which were then cancelled.  
The problem is that there is a pattern to these mistakes.

If you look at the FAA, the commission blamed them for allowing the planes to hit their targets by y not notifying the right people, even though they had done this for many years before, yet the did a really good job of grounding all of the planes in the sky, even though they had never done this before.

When you look patterns, mistakes on stuff they were doing for years and

In your own words, how do you think this could have been handled better?

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I do not think he is a liar, a bit crackers maybe but I wouldn't call him a liar.

Icke? I'd call him a liar, and many other things. Reptillian Governments?

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I think it was the times, this was back in the 1950s. Child abuse was never spoken about and I would say that here in the UK, it was only discussed after consumer programs like That's Life which brought it to the attention of the public.

It is and I'm sure you could find some people out there willing to defend his actions.

Does not seem to be the case. All media, people I speak to, I am yet to hear a sympathetic word.

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Well I can't comment on truthers seeing as I do not know any personally. Other than a few I have spoke to on forums and the ones I've dealt with via email, they all come across as nice people, even the CIT guys who are often labelled and name called.

Although it's a pleasure chatting with you, I think we need to shorten the conversation down a little because we are going off on all kinds of subject matters such as the death penalty and Iran. Also formulating a response is taking a while and sometimes frustrating, especially when your mouse as a back key that you hit it occasionally, wiping off everything you have typed...Arrgghhh!! lol

Cheers

Stundie :)

I find the Truther movement unsettling. I am surprised that people would deny outright confessions and witnesses to come up with some anti government proposal, but that is true paranoid CT/FTB stuff. If people do not have an answer they used to say "It's God's Will" now they say "The Government stuffed it" And whilst they have made some tremendous stuff ups, I would expect that. If you have a look at some f the Ground Zero Lounge crapola, you might be able to see what I mean. Drunks with attitude seems be the driving force behind Trutherism.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#1630    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 31,833 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:21 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 11 April 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

That is simply a question of definition. I think this comment from Bassam Tibi sheds some light on the confusiont:

"Both sides should acknowledge candidly that although they might use identical terms, these mean different things to each of them. The word peace, for example, implies to a Muslim the extension of the Dar al-Islam -- or House of Islam -- to the entire world. This is completely different from the Enlightenment concept of eternal peace that dominates Western thought. Only when the entire world is a Dar al-Islam will it be a Dar a-Salam, or House of Peace." (Bassam Tibi)

Doesn't Bassam Tibi support reform of Islam?

I cannot understand how such violence can be translated, even if it can, I really struggle to see these words as being anything to do with a movement devoted to peace, as is claimed.

I saw a very good debate on TV a few weeks ago with Australia's current Iman, there was a show - this one in fact LINK A Muslim, a Buddhist, a Catholic and two atheists walked into the ABC - a Muslim gay man called in on video phone, which I thought was quite game, and asked how to maintain his sexuality and remain Muslim. This "Deeply understanding" Iman, whom the tweets seemed to support even as stupid as they were, simply told this young man he is not welcome. He said Islam does not allow a gay lifestyle, so if you want to be gay, you do not want to be Muslim. Then the debate turned on the Catholic Priest, and by crikey did he cop a grilling. But the crowd left the Iman alone. Catholics accept the gay lifestyle, and as a creature of God, they accept gay rights, the problem lies in gay marriage, but that is a whole new subject. Suffice to say, the Cathlic Priest got hammered about Gay Marriage, whilst the crowd lef t the Iman alone. We all know Islam is what it is, and it is not willing to change. The Muslim religion has little scope for movement, despite the apologists  and I have no idea how one rationalises violence. I do not feel a good explanation for such horrific religious advice, this is cutting of fingers and removing heads has been offered to date, do you? SImilar is stated in Christian version, I realise, but every single, not just sane, Western person has considered these an analogy for at least 400 years - since the 30 years war pretty much. And I suppose that is why we have no Christians flying planes into buildings. Considering in Islam that one may "honor kill" is enough to seriously question this faith that is also law.

May I ask, how do you feel these atrocious passages can be rationalised? Specifically murder as seen in 5:33 and 5:38?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#1631    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 31,833 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:31 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 11 April 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

"Jihad" simply means "struggle". That includes both personal struggle as well as armed violence. There is no particular limit in the term; only the islamopologists want you to believe that islamic jihad is always peaceful. Duh! The world is brimming with violent jihadist groups, typically lead by clerics who have studied the koran and hadith more intensively than you ever will.

As far as I know, it is supposed to mean "Internal Struggle" Or so the Iman on the ABC show I referred said. He made it very clear, but he also indicated to me at least that one might have many Jihads, personal Jihads, as well as social, however the reason for Jihad is to struggle to be the best one can. As such, I think 911 is anything but Jihad, so I figure Jihad has a new interpretation, just as the Bible is interpreted differently in different eras, and in different social structures. In todays Shari'ah lands, Jihad seems to mean kill anyone who is not Muslim.
But in all, I agree, those who have looked at the Hadith as a reason to be violent and try to turn the world Muslim. Maybe they should have affairs and m********e, they seem to have some unbelievable pent up tensions, did you hear about that Mufti who said women should not handle cucumbers and carrot because they lead to penis temptation? A Muslim leader! Not much upstairs by the sound of it.

View PostZaphod222, on 11 April 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Because by definition, if you become a muslim, you have to worship the Haddith. The Haddiths are the sayings of Mohammed, who is the perfect man, and beyond criticism. There is no such thing as a "muslim" who disputes the Haddiths --- by definition! (Not to mention that your co-believers would kill you as heretic, if you tried to.)

Indeed, but I think some groups consider it as something to be interpreted some believe it is to be followed to the letter.

View PostZaphod222, on 11 April 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Now tell us again: Why would anybody organize a gigantic conspiracy just to add another jihadist attack to a preceding long list of jihadist attacks (including a previous jihadist bombing of the WTC in 1993 by the way?)

:tu:

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#1632    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:31 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 11 April 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Doesn't Bassam Tibi support reform of Islam?

Yes he does. But he is getting nowhere with that. Because any reform of islam runs smack into the dogma that the koran is the literal word of god, and Mohammed the perfect man.
Something has to give... you can not have both literalism and reform.

View Postpsyche101, on 11 April 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

May I ask, how do you feel these atrocious passages can be rationalised? Specifically murder as seen in 5:33 and 5:38?

You´d have to ask that to a muslim representative. But don´t wait for our media (or our troothers) to do that.

Edited by Zaphod222, 11 April 2013 - 07:42 AM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#1633    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 31,833 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:34 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 11 April 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

I have noticed that many 911 Truthers are anti-government.



Indeed, it seems to be a stronger motivator than Truth from the arguments I have seen, despite  the labels these conspiracists apply to themselves.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#1634    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 31,833 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:39 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 11 April 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Yes he does. But he is getting nowhere with that. Because any reform of islam runs smack into the dogma that the koran is the literal word of god, and Mohammed the perfect man.
Something has to give... you can not have both literalism and reform.

Indeed, as such, he will continue to get nowhere. Well said, something does have to give, but it likely wont from what we are seeing.

LOL, yes, the "perfect" man, so much so that they will kill any person who makes even a light hearted comment. Seems they are very paranoid about his perfection.

View PostZaphod222, on 11 April 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

You´d have to ask that to a muslim representative. But don´t ask our media (or our troothers) to do that.

LOL, I wont be holding my breath, that much is for sure! There does not seem to be a lot of leeway on those ones does there :D

Edited by psyche101, 11 April 2013 - 07:40 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#1635    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:40 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 11 April 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

As far as I know, it is supposed to mean "Internal Struggle" Or so the Iman on the ABC show I referred said.

The Imam at the ABC show was feeding you Taqiya (the islamic term for deception of infidels). There is nothing in the term "jihad" that implies "internal" or "external". Ask any Arabic speaker to confirm (well, not your local imam, I suppose). You will find that e.g. the agriculture ministry in Saudi Arabia has called for an agricultural jihad, which means neither blowing up things nor praying for things, but simply making a big effort.
That the jihadists preach and practise violent jihad is not something I need to document for you, do I now?

By the way, Hitlers "Mein Kampf" also simply means "My struggle". That does not make the book harmless.


And I am still waiting for a troother to come forward and tell me why he thinks a gigantic conspiracy deemed it necessary to add another jihadist terrorist attack to a long line of preceding jihadist attacks. No taker, it seems...

Edited by Zaphod222, 11 April 2013 - 07:41 AM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users