122 replies to this topic

[Bluefinger]

Crikey, on 14 January 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

Thanks, and what exactly does this mean about being marked on foreheads and hands, what sort of mark?-

Revelation 14:9/10- "A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury.."

I wrote a follow up piece on this immediately after my first response on 666.  The mark on the foreheads and hands comes from the Old Testament, about how God told the Jews to follow the Law to the 'T.'  

"And  these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.  You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.  You shall bind them as a [b]sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes." (Deuteronomy 6:6-8 ESV)[/i]

So, basically, the beast would institute a law that its followers would take that demonstrated their faithfulness to it.  Those that took the mark were rejecting the salvation of Christ.  And like the Jews that rejected them and were subjected to the curse of the law, which includes the plagues of Egypt (Duet. 28:15-68,) so these Gentiles that took the mark would also be cursed.  

Interesting.  The Jews followed the Torah so that they would enjoy God's blessings only to find themselves excluded.  The Gentiles followed their own religious law so that they would have eternal life in heaven.  Ironically, these are the ones subjected to the 'second death.'  Like what Babylon (Rome) is told:

""The fruit for which your soul longed has gone from you, and all your delicacies and your splendors are lost to you, never to be found again!" (Revelation 18:14 ESV)

I think that this still all relates to the kingdom of God.  In Matthew 21:43, the Jews were told by Jesus that the kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to nations producing fruit for the Gospel.  The times of the Jews ended in 70 CE and the times of the Gentiles began.  At the height of its power, the Roman Church would become prideful and power-hungry, seeking to accrue much wealth for itself.  Those that challenged its authority were put to death.  Those that submitted to its authority also submitted themselves to a life of bondage to the canon law.  At one point, the Church of Rome even permitted a priest to preach salvation for the purchase of indulgences; an act that sparked revolution in the Church.  Their sermon was not that the poor would find equality in justice in God's kingdom, as Jesus taught, but rather that God is angry at their sin and ready to damn them to eternity if they do not pay for the indulgence and let the Church of Rome remiss their sins.

So, when we speak of evil in the Church, we tend to always revert back to the Middle Ages, with crusades and inquisitions.  This, I think is the greatest indication of what the mark was and who bore it.  I will say it plainly now:  The mark of the beast was Roman Catholicism.  It was a state-sponsored religion that cared more for monasticism than it did for social equality.  Social inequality eventually caught up with it when the French revolutionaries overthrew its power and chopped the heads off of the priests at the guillotine.

However, just like when Jesus came, one can be a Catholic without submitting to the false religion of justification by works (or by indulgences), just like one can be accepted into the Abrahamic Covenant without having to get circumcised.  Jesus freed us from bondage to the Law.  We should not be placing ourselves back under it.

And if any are curious.  The Roman Church gained primacy after the Great Schism of 1054.  The schism between Rome and Constantinople occurred because Rome was criticizing Constantinople on its use of leavened bread during the Eucharist, an accusation akin to justification by the Mosaic Law.

Edited by Bluefinger, 14 January 2013 - 05:07 AM.

[laver]

Bluefinger, on 13 January 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

This seems to be the last piece that I'm still working on.  Every reader is at default to believe that the seven churches were seven literal churches when Revelation was written.  

Yet, the introduction of Jesus in chapter 1:13-18 sounds almost exactly like the description of one like the son of man that Daniel described in Daniel 10:5-14.  Both Daniel and John collapsed when they saw this person.  Such behavior would characterize someone standing in the presence of the most holy God.  What Daniel was told in Dan. 10:14 was that the message he was receiving concerned his people (Jews) and his city (Jerusalem) in the end times, which is detailed in Dan. 11 and 12.  Of course, what he meant was the end of the Times of the Jews, which occurred in 70 CE.  So Daniel was given an account of Jewish history from his time until Jerusalem was destroyed.  Now look at Rev. 1:19.  It says:

"Write therefore  the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this." (Revelation 1:19 ESV)

It seems to me that the mystery of the seven churches is that they make up major events in Church history, to which Christ's words would be given in the letters, just as Daniel was given a history of what would happen to the Jews until Jerusalem was destroyed and its people scattered.  But I have not come up with a satisfactory interpretation to support that yet, so I must maintain that they were seven literal churches only.

What I am looking at right now is the possibility that these seven churches were actually places that the Christians in Judea fled to when the Romans declared war on Judea.  That would explain why there is no mention of four of those seven churches in Acts or any of the epistles.  They were along main roads, so its obvious that those that fled stuck to the highway, which was secured by the Romans.  Considering that the Jews despised the followers of Jesus, the disciples had no problem getting past the Romans.  They weren't even considered Jews by their own brethren!  

That would mean that the book of Revelation was written either shortly before or during the war against Judea.  We would then have to take into account the historical background behind the prophecies and work that time in history into the sequence of events that were foretold.

Would suggest that the crucial ' secret meaning' in Chapter 1 verse 20 is the geographical location of the 7 churches because they are arranged in two alignments which Jesus and Mary of Magdala were clearly aware of. This is a fact that can be easily demonstrated and verified by anyone who cares to do so. It is based on the 7 churches or locations chosen by Jesus and to which he sent messages in the first 3 chapters of Revelations. Because the book of Revelations is centred around the number 7 it is constantly reminding us of this number which is so important because of the 7 locations he chose. You say you are still trying to work out this part of Revelations well would suggest that you start with the latitude and longitude of Christ's chosen sites, then all will be revealed, which is the meaning of an Apocalypse... to reveal that which is hidden....and as this secret is now known we must be in a time of Revelation ... QED

[Crikey]

Bluefinger, on 14 January 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

..The mark on the foreheads and hands comes from the Old Testament, about how God told the Jews to follow the Law to the 'T.'  
I will say it plainly now:  The mark of the beast was Roman Catholicism...

So the mark wasn't some kind of tattoo?
And are you saying it only applies to Roman Catholicism, even today?
For example does it also apply to moderm Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and assorted cultists etc?

[Crikey]

AquilaChrysaetos, on 12 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

..Either way, the main thing is that spending so much time deciefering the apocalypse instead of trying to save people's lives is in my opinion a very poor assessment of priorities...

Yes, Paul said- "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
But we can still have FUN discussing Revelation and other bits of the Bible as long as we don't become obsessed by them..

[Bluefinger]

Crikey, on 14 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

So the mark wasn't some kind of tattoo?
And are you saying it only applies to Roman Catholicism, even today?
For example does it also apply to moderm Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and assorted cultists etc?

Hard to say for certain.  Revelation 12 and 13 only accounted for the Roman Empire, the Germanic Roman Empire and the Spanish Empire.

[Ogbin]

The TWO witnesses are not the church. They are obviously 2 people (most likely Enoch and Elijah). Zech. 4:11-14, Rev. 11:3-12. (Keyword for these 2 scripture passages is "TWO".)

(1.)  Elijah was a prophet to Israel. Elijah has not died yet (2 Kings 2:11). Elijah will comeback before the Great and Dreadfull Day of the LORD (Mal. 4:5-6).

(2.)  Enoch was a prophet to the Gentiles (Jude 14). Enoch has not died yet (heb. 11:5).

(3.)  heb. 9:27 " It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement."

[Bluefinger]

Ogbin, on 14 January 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

The TWO witnesses are not the church. They are obviously 2 people (most likely Enoch and Elijah). Zech. 4:11-14, Rev. 11:3-12. (Keyword for these 2 scripture passages is "TWO".)

(1.)  Elijah was a prophet to Israel. Elijah has not died yet (2 Kings 2:11). Elijah will comeback before the Great and Dreadfull Day of the LORD (Mal. 4:5-6).

(2.)  Enoch was a prophet to the Gentiles (Jude 14). Enoch has not died yet (heb. 11:5).

(3.)  heb. 9:27 " It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement."

I get your point. I just don't agree.  The TWO witnesses relate the to manner of their witness, not the number of their count.  I showed in Zech. 4 that one of the olive trees was a line of priests while the other olive tree was a line of kings.  And I showed in Rev. 1:6, 5:10, and 20:6 that the saints are made priests and kings by the blood of Jesus.

Concerning Enoch, the descriptions of the two witnesses don't fit.  And beside, there are plenty of Christians that haven't died.  It's an assumption that goes against everything else laid out in the book of Revelation to say that the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah.  

Their identities match Joshua the High Priest and Zerubbabel the governor.  The way they are treated are akin to Smyrna and Laodicea.  Their plagues resemble Eljiah and Moses.  But nothing resembles Enoch.

These are the saints that keep the commands of God and hold the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17.)

[Sean93]

"Without further ado, the 144,000 are those who first heard the Gospel and those who first believed them."
When you say that this group, the 140'000, were the first to accept the gospels, does this mean that the protection of said individuals has already happened and thus, that the angels have already protected them from the winds? If that's the case, hasn't Revelation already begun.

Edited by Sean93, 15 January 2013 - 05:40 AM.

[docyabut2]

Revelations is what it is, a man dreams, some say of his times, but others say of  the furture, but anything can be read in them  the code of  the sixes are of a man that marked his people with santions not to buy or sell with out the mark. Saddam Hussian,  how many sixes do you want:)

S/RES/687 (1991)
8 April 1991

RESOLUTION 687 (1991)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 2981st meeting, on 3 April 1991

The Security Council,
Recalling its resolutions 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990, 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 662 (1990) of 9 August 1990, 664 (1990) of 18 August 1990, 665 (1990) of 25 August 1990, 666 (1990) of 13 September 1990, 667 (1990) of 16 September 1990, 669 (1990) of 24 September 1990, 670 (1990) of 25 September 1990, 674 (1990) of 29 October 1990, 677 (1990) of 28 November 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990 and 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991,

Edited by docyabut2, 15 January 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[Amalthe]

Bluefinger, on 13 January 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

666 as the mark of the beast represents the Roman Catholic Canon Law.  666, as a number of a man, counts out Nero's name.  ...

I'm afraid it is logically impossible. First, lets take two descriptions about the mark of the Beast

Rev 13:16-17 (KJ)
¹⁶ And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
¹⁷ And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 14:9-10
⁹ And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
¹⁰ The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

It is obvious that mark of the Beast must have not only religious but also economic repercussions, so it can't be something as simple as Canon Law. Also, it is against God's justice to punish all people who obey the Roman Catholic Canon Law, just because they do so, there are surely some Roman catholic people who are deemed just and mercifull in God's eyes and are saved.

Mark of the Beast according to Rev. on other hand definitely has a lot to do with the Law, and has to be something visible and accepted by personal decision, that leaves no moral ambiguity, so that Rev 14:9-10 can be applied.

If you had a chance to study Kur'an prophecies about end of time, it is stated that Isa the prophet (Jesus) will return and that he will proclaim that he is not God but a powerfull prophet, and that he will unite all religions into one world religion. There is the place where you have to search for your Mark of The Beast.

[Bluefinger]

Sean93, on 15 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

When you say that this group, the 140'000, were the first to accept the gospels, does this mean that the protection of said individuals has already happened and thus, that the angels have already protected them from the winds? If that's the case, hasn't Revelation already begun.

I explained earlier in one of my posts that trumpets 1-6 were regarding the destruction of Jerusalem as foretold so many times by Jesus.  Before it came, those who Christ foreknew were sealed by the Gospel and chased out of Judea by the Jews.  Those that remained looked for signs that its desolation was near.  And so they fled.

I could post supporting scripture again, but I'd rather you look over my older posts and see.

[Bluefinger]

Amalthe, on 15 January 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I'm afraid it is logically impossible. First, lets take two descriptions about the mark of the Beast

Rev 13:16-17 (KJ)
¹⁶ And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
¹⁷ And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 14:9-10
⁹ And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
¹⁰ The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

It is obvious that mark of the Beast must have not only religious but also economic repercussions, so it can't be something as simple as Canon Law. Also, it is against God's justice to punish all people who obey the Roman Catholic Canon Law, just because they do so, there are surely some Roman catholic people who are deemed just and mercifull in God's eyes and are saved.

I disagree.  When Martin Luther stood up against Rome, it wasn't because he wanted a different church.  Its because Rome's doctrines were ruining the grace of God.  These people were also those that killed other Christians in crusades and yielded during the inquisition.  The Roman Church told people that their number was up if they sinned again after Baptism and that the only way to buy time out of purgatory was to purchase indulgences.  Yet the very socio-economic status they bore that promoted so much sin was supported by the Roman Church, whom was made wealthy by French, German, English, and Spanish kings.

The mark occurs during the second beast, not the first.  The Spanish Empire was notorious for its zeal for the Roman Church, the Spanish Inquisition, and the ones who spread Catholicism to its greatest extent (America.)  It chased out the Protestants in France and killed Jews in Spain.  It placed antilabor laws for Jews in the Holy Roman Empire and they were forced to wear yellow badges so that people would not do business with them.  This was a very uncertain time in Europe for Christians as well.  A mere accusation could have your property confiscated and you put on trial at the Inquisition.  Surely, the Roman Church's darkest time was during the Spanish Empire.

Quote

Mark of the Beast according to Rev. on other hand definitely has a lot to do with the Law, and has to be something visible and accepted by personal decision, that leaves no moral ambiguity, so that Rev 14:9-10 can be applied.

If you had a chance to study Kur'an prophecies about end of time, it is stated that Isa the prophet (Jesus) will return and that he will proclaim that he is not God but a powerfull prophet, and that he will unite all religions into one world religion. There is the place where you have to search for your Mark of The Beast.

One problem:  The first beast is evidently the fourth beast of Daniel 7.  Rev. 13:1 shows that.  That beast was the Roman Empire.  Thus, the first beast of Rev. 13 is the Roman Empire.  And the second beast works in the presence of the first.

Therefore it cannot be Islamic nations.

[Ogbin]

You are spreading confusion. Nothing you say to people who have studied the bible makes any sense. It is my hope that you will re-read the bible slowly and think about what you are saying.

The triblulation hasn't even started yet like you have stated.

The two wittnesses are just that TWO WITTNESSES. (people)

The 144,000 ARE Jews as stated in Rev. 7.

The mark of the Beast is most likely a micro chip considering you can't buy or sell without it. (youtube "IBM RFID COMMERCIAL")



  You have stated so much that is wrong I don't want to stay here all day and correct you on everything but i think you get my point. Please study more and ask GOD for understanding. After all you don't want to be judged for incorrect teaching.



  If anyone is interested they can Youtube Perry stone, or go to hallindsey.com, or jvim.com.  These people are very informative! they cross todays world events with Bible prophecy

Edited by Ogbin, 15 January 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[Crikey]

What is Revelation FOR anyway?
If God revealed things to John in it, what was his purpose for doing so?
And why is it in a kind of code, why isn't it in plain simple language?

[Bluefinger]

Ogbin, on 15 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

You are spreading confusion. Nothing you say to people who have studied the bible makes any sense. It is my hope that you will re-read the bible slowly and think about what you are saying.

That's not an argument.  Please address my points and show me how my supporting Scripture references are misinterpreted.  Thank you.

Quote

The triblulation hasn't even started yet like you have stated.

Then what do you call the Diocletian Persecution, the Crusade against the Waldenses, the Hussite wars, the suppression of Protestantism, an the Spanish Inquisition?

Quote

The two wittnesses are just that    TWO WITTNESSES. (people)

I've sufficiently defended my intepretation in earlier posts and I don't feel that I need to reiterate my points.  Dismissal is not an argument.  Prove my points wrong by directly addressing them please.

Quote

The 144,000 ARE Jews as stated in Rev. 7.

I agree.  And they were sealed before Jerusalem was destroyed.

Quote

The mark of the Beast is most likely a micro chip considering you can't buy or sell without it. (youtube "IBM RFID COMMERCIAL")

Maybe you should take your own advice and read the Bible more slowly and carefully:

"And  these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.  You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.  You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes." (Deuteronomy 6:6-8 ESV)

Direct reference to the Mosaic Law, which Paul said condemned men to curses and death.

Quote

  You have stated so much that is wrong I don't want to stay here all day and correct you on everything but i think you get my point. Please study more and ask GOD for understanding. After all you don't want to be judged for incorrect teaching.

Or you just don't know what you are talking about and can't adequately defend your interpretation.

Quote

  If anyone is interested they can Youtube Perry stone, or go to hallindsey.com, or jvim.com.  These people are very informative! they cross todays world events with Bible prophecy

I'm going to have to call you out on trolling.  Please stop.  Evidently your a futurist.  And that is okay.

But I don't want the OP being derailed.  Either challenge something specifically or let the others discuss it.  If you don't have anything good to contribute then don't contribute anything.  And if you to tell me I'm doing everything wrong, please save space on this thread by sending me a private message.

Have a good day

Edited by Bluefinger, 15 January 2013 - 07:04 PM.