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WTC 911 EyeWitness~Hoboken


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#1726    Q24

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:09 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 23 May 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

The bowing of the WTC buildings was indicative of fire, not thermite, and here is an example of what heat can do to steel.

What are you implying by “fire”?  No evidence of fire weakening the steel was ever found.

The bowing of the WTC buildings was indicative of thermite, not fire, which is why after more than 11 years there has been no evidence of the fire weakening the structure.  NIST’s own physical tests demonstrated that fire could not cause the bowing, which was a result of thermite, and here is an example of what thermite can do to steel because it seems you missed it the first three times.

Posted Image

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Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#1727    Stundie

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:12 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 22 May 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Simple! Look at the aluminum chart. At what temperature does aluminum glow yellow?
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I looked at the chart and the temperature is over 1200C, which means it was probably hot enough to melt steel.

Here is why it isn't molten aluminium....See if you can notice why?? lol

Posted Image

There is no such thing as magic, just magicians and fools.

#1728    Stundie

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:15 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 22 May 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Go back and read my response in that respect because you missed it.
No I didn't miss it, you posted some unsubstantiated spam about it being aluminium even though it bears no resemblance it. lol

View Postskyeagle409, on 22 May 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

In other words, you are not paying attention. Then, come back and review this video.


Yes, its definitely molten steel. lol

There is no such thing as magic, just magicians and fools.

#1729    Stundie

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:21 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 23 May 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Well, let's take a look at the photo.

Posted Image
Yep. no matter how many times we look at it, it still looks and behaves like molten steel.

We can tell not just from the colour, but the viscidity doesn't match aluminium at that temperature which has a fluidity more like water. lol

View Postskyeagle409, on 23 May 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Yes indeed, those silvery droplets are aluminum and they originated from the same corner of WTC2  where much of the aluminum airframe of United 175 came to rest.
You can't see any silvery droplets. You are imagining things again.

I asked you to point out where the silvery droplets you can see and you still haven't been able to point them out...lol

Besides, it's easy enough to tell that it is definitely molten steel...lol

There is no such thing as magic, just magicians and fools.

#1730    Stundie

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:29 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 23 May 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Let's take another look.
Yes, lets take a look shall we...

The following is taken from an email Neil deGrasse Tyson sent to his family and friends on 12 September 2001. Neil witnessed the attacks on the twin towers from his apartment only six blocks from the World Trade Center.


"As more and more and more and more and more emergency vehicles descended on the World Trade Center, I hear a second explosion in WTC 2, then a loud, low-frequency rumble that precipitates the unthinkable -- a collapse of all the floors above the point of explosion. First the top surface, containing the helipad, tips sideways in full view. Then the upper floors fall straight down in a demolition-style implosion, taking all lower floors with it, even those below the point of the explosion."
"I decide it's time to get my daughter, who was taken by the parents of a friend of hers to a small office building, six blocks farther from the WTC than my apartment. As I dress for survival: boots, flashlight, wet towels, swimming goggles, bicycle helmet, gloves, I hear another explosion followed by a now all-too familiar rumble that signaled the collapse of WTC 1, the first of the two towers to have been hit. I saw the iconic antenna on this building descend straight down in an implosion twinning the first."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kim White, WTC 1 survivor, on 80th floor at time of impact
We got down as far as the 74th floor [...] Then there was another explosion, so we left again by the stairwell.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9/11 NBC News broadcast
"Shortly after 9 o'clock [...] [Albert Turi the Chief of Safety for the New York Fire Department] received word of the possibility of a secondary device, that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said there was another explosion which took place, and then an hour after the first hit, the first crash that took place, he said there was another explosion that took place in one of the towers here, so obviously according to his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building.

One of the secondary devices he thinks that took place after the initial impact he thinks may have been on the plane that crashed into one of the towers. The second device, he thinks, he speculates, was probably planted in the building."

------------------------------------------------
911 Tapes Tell Horror Of 9/11

Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've just had another explosion.
Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've had additional explosion.
Dispatcher: Received battalion command. Additional explosion.
[...]
Dispatcher: Battalion 5, be advised we're trying to contact Battalion 3 at this moment to report north tower just collapsed.

----------------------



There is no such thing as magic, just magicians and fools.

#1731    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:59 PM

View PostStundie, on 23 May 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I looked at the chart and the temperature is over 1200C, which means it was probably hot enough to melt steel.

Here is why it isn't molten aluminium....See if you can notice why??

Posted Image

By George! There is color to molten aluminum after all. :w00t: Thanks for reconfirming what I have stated all along.

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#1732    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:07 PM

View PostStundie, on 23 May 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Yep. no matter how many times we look at it, it still looks and behaves like molten steel.

Nope, and the silvery droplets prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the molten flow is not steel. I might add that when metals are in a molten state, they tend to flow. Just to let you know about the laws of physics in that regard.

Quote

We can tell not just from the colour, but the viscidity doesn't match aluminium at that temperature which has a fluidity more like water.

Apparently, you haven't been paying attention. :no:

Now, go back and find out he has addressed the color of molten aluminum flowing from that corner of WTC2, which is where the much of the aluminum airframe of United 175 had come to rested, and as you can see in the photos and videos, the airframe was exposed to temperatures above the melting point of aluminum.

Quote

You can't see any silvery droplets. You are imagining things again.

Let's take another look and tell us what are the color of those droplets in the lower portion of this photo.

Posted Image

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#1733    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:12 PM

View PostQ24, on 23 May 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Apparently you missed the evidence for thermite and failed to realise there is no evidence of fire weakening.

Posted Image

That is an annealed piece of metal, not a piece of metal that was in a molten state. There is a BIG difference between annealed metal and molten metal. I might add that during structural imspections in the years prior to the 911 attacks, corrosion was noted on the structures of the WTC buildings, which allowed some of the fire protection to become dislodged.

Just thought that I would let you know about the WTC structural inspections where corrosion was found during structural inspections before the 911 attacks.

Edited by skyeagle409, 23 May 2013 - 05:54 PM.

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#1734    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:18 PM

View PostStundie, on 23 May 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

No I didn't miss it, you posted some unsubstantiated spam about it being aluminium even though it bears no resemblance it. lol
Yes, its definitely molten steel. lol

Nope, because that is the exact location where much of the aluminum airframe of United 175 came to rest and  you will note the fire at that location where the temperature was high enough to melt aluminum, but too low to melt steel. BTW, you don't see any steel columns being cut in the video nor in the photos, so there you go, no molten steel.   :no:

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#1735    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:21 PM

View PostQ24, on 23 May 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

What are you implying by “fire”?  No evidence of fire weakening the steel was ever found.

The bowing of the WTC buildings was indicative of thermite, not fire, which is why after more than 11 years there has been no evidence of the fire weakening the structure.  NIST’s own physical tests demonstrated that fire could not cause the bowing, which was a result of thermite, and here is an example of what thermite can do to steel because it seems you missed it the first three times.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

You have to remember those towers were not constructed structurally in the same fashion as the WTC buildings, so those photos are irrelevant by that very fact, and once again, you've failed to understand the reasoning why demolition companies do not use thermite for demolition implosions of tall buildings.

Now, study this diagram and tell us why thermite alone could not have been responsible for the collapse of the WTC towers.

Posted Image

And using these images below, tell us why thermite was incapable of bringing down the WTC towers. What structural significance can be placed on the parameter and core construction of the WTC towers? Why do these images prove that the molten flow could not have been molten steel?


Posted Image


Posted Image

Edited by skyeagle409, 23 May 2013 - 05:59 PM.

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#1736    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:30 PM

View PostStundie, on 23 May 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Yes, lets take a look shall we...

The following is taken from an email Neil deGrasse Tyson sent to his family and friends on 12 September 2001. Neil witnessed the attacks on the twin towers from his apartment only six blocks from the World Trade Center.


"As more and more and more and more and more emergency vehicles descended on the World Trade Center, I hear a second explosion in WTC 2, then a loud, low-frequency rumble that precipitates the unthinkable -- a collapse of all the floors above the point of explosion. First the top surface, containing the helipad, tips sideways in full view. Then the upper floors fall straight down in a demolition-style implosion, taking all lower floors with it, even those below the point of the explosion."
"I decide it's time to get my daughter, who was taken by the parents of a friend of hers to a small office building, six blocks farther from the WTC than my apartment. As I dress for survival: boots, flashlight, wet towels, swimming goggles, bicycle helmet, gloves, I hear another explosion followed by a now all-too familiar rumble that signaled the collapse of WTC 1, the first of the two towers to have been hit. I saw the iconic antenna on this building descend straight down in an implosion twinning the first."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kim White, WTC 1 survivor, on 80th floor at time of impact
We got down as far as the 74th floor [...] Then there was another explosion, so we left again by the stairwell.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9/11 NBC News broadcast
"Shortly after 9 o'clock [...] [Albert Turi the Chief of Safety for the New York Fire Department] received word of the possibility of a secondary device, that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said there was another explosion which took place, and then an hour after the first hit, the first crash that took place, he said there was another explosion that took place in one of the towers here, so obviously according to his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building.

One of the secondary devices he thinks that took place after the initial impact he thinks may have been on the plane that crashed into one of the towers. The second device, he thinks, he speculates, was probably planted in the building."

------------------------------------------------
911 Tapes Tell Horror Of 9/11

Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've just had another explosion.
Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've had additional explosion.
Dispatcher: Received battalion command. Additional explosion.
[...]
Dispatcher: Battalion 5, be advised we're trying to contact Battalion 3 at this moment to report north tower just collapsed.

----------------------

As I have said  such sounds do not mean that explosives were responsible and it seems you missed the rest of the story.

Quote


Sound of Explosions


The Elevator Man's Tale

We heard the explosion and within a matter of seconds after that impact, I heard – and as well as everybody else heard – this noise, this increasing sound of wind. And it was getting louder and louder. It was like a bomb, not quite the sound of a bomb coming down from a bomber. It was a sound of wind increasing, a whistling sound, increasing in sound.

What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.

http://www.thrnewmed...ember/jones.htm

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Excerpts from: "8 Hurt as Trade Center Elevator Rams Ceiling" by Dan Kadison, Adam Miller, Erika Martinez and Cathy Burke,New York Post,August 12, 2000, p.4.

The express elevator to the Sky Lobby at the World Trade Center roared 24 feet past its stop and slammed into a ceiling 960 feet above ground yesterday, injuring eight of 12 people trapped inside.
The trapped passengers - who were stuck in Elevator No. 20 about 15 feet above the 78th floor at Two World Trade Center - had to be escorted to safety in a heart-stopping operation conducted from the roof of a second, adjacent elevator.

"We didn't know if we would get out alive," Queens resident Richard Gallo, an electrical engineer at the building, told his wife, Helen. "Everyone was screaming. There was blood all over the place. We were really scared that the elevator was going to plunge to the ground...." "I've been riding the elevator for years" [added a co-worker]. "Occasionally they slip, it's not something you can focus on." Others [present] described the crash as sounding like a horrendous "boom."  People "thought it was a bomb," said Kim Dunlap, a receptionist on the 100th floor. It rocked the building.

There's never a dull moment at the World Trade Center."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As soon as we arrived, 84, a massive explosion goes off, and at this point we didn't know what it was. We thought it was a secondary explosion. We didn't know that it was a second plane. In fact, I didn't know there was a second plane until much later in the evening.

http://www.npr.org/d...rds/delgado.pdf


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We figured by the time we got to the fifth or sixth floor, that’s when the south tower was hit. I had no idea the south tower was hit, and I don’t think that Chief Jonas – Captain Jonas at the time – or Lieutenant Foti knew at that point either. I remember the whole north tower literally vibrated. The only way I can explain it is if you were at the edge of a subway platform and the train was coming in, you felt that wind and the sound, but with an added effect like the floor vibrated. Everybody just cringed and really was not sure what was going on. I just assumed that it was something above us.
I had no idea that the south tower was hit.

http://www.firehouse.../gz/blaich.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"As we got near the top of the escalator that brings you to ground level from five floors below, we heard what sounded like a bomb going off," Seebode said. "It was the second plane hitting World Trade Center."

http://www.hq.usace....v01/story18.htm


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is an example of how 911 Truthers have been taken for a ride.

Louie Cacchioli, 51, is a firefighter assigned to Engine 47 in Harlem.

We were the first ones in the second tower after the plane struck. I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building.

http://prisonplanet....e_cacchioli.htm

Now, let's read the rest of the story.

Why did Louie Cacchioli become upset?

Cacchioli was upset that People Magazine misquoted him, saying "there were bombs" in the building when all he said was he heard "what sounded like bombs" without having definitive proof bombs were actually detonated.

http://www.arcticbea...9-Jul-2005.html



Now, further accounts of what they thought, were explosions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

t was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other.

http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Susan W. F.

"We were ushered into the Port Authority office on the 78th floor... As I turned to watch some of my fellow co-workers making phone calls, there was a second ka-boom, the building shook again and debris started hitting the windows... I thought some part of the plane or some part of the building that had been hit by the plane had exploded and debris was sliding down from the floors above us. I would later learn it was a second airplane diving into the other tower and it was debris from that explosion hitting the windows."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower,somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out. -----------> I later realized that the building had started to collapse already and this was the air being compressed and that is the floor that let go.

http://www.nytimes.c...Turi_Albert.txt


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out. Then I guess in some sense of time we looked at it and realized, no, actually it just collapsed. That ís what blew out the windows, ------> not that there was an explosion there but that windows blew out.

http://www.nytimes.c...Dixon_Brian.txt

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever.

http://www.nytimes.c...ory_Stephen.txt

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Craig Carlsen said that he and other firefighters “heard explosions coming from . . . the south tower. . . . There were about ten explosions. . . . We then realized the building started to come down” (NYT, Carlsen, pp. 5-6).


http://911review.com...iffin/nyc1.html

Now, the rest of Mr. Carlen's story.

...there were about ten explosions...At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit.

http://graphics8.nyt...HIC/9110505.PDF

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out.

http://a1022.g.akama...pdf/9110287.pdf


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An ambulance pulled up which was very clean, S0 I assumed that the vehicle had not been in the - what I thought was an explosion at the time, but was the first collapse.

http://www.nytimes.c...withers_Jay.txt


So once again, a particular sound doesn't mean that explosives were used because there are many sounds that mimic the sound of explosions.

Edited by skyeagle409, 23 May 2013 - 05:33 PM.

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#1737    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:45 PM

View PostQ24, on 23 May 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

False!!  Experiments to replicate a molten aluminium and debris mix have been unsuccessful so NIST were spreading misinformation and disinformation which fooled you.  Furthermore thermite charges could survive and your error depicts your lack of knowledge on thermite, potential ignition methods and setups.  Your molten aluminium is history and you can see that in this post and others.

On the contrary, the droplets alone proved that the molten flow was not steel.

Posted Image

And, it seems that you missed this message.

Quote


Stephen D. Chastain of Metal Talk.


Several times over the last year I have been asked to comment on a photo of one of the Trade Center Towers. The photo shows a molten flow from one of the windows. The flow falls down along the building. It appears orange and turns to a gray color as it cools.

First, I will address the temperature range, then the color of the flow.

Metals lose about 50% of their strength at 60% of their melting temperature. This is common knowledge and may be found in any undergraduate text regarding "Fracture and Deformation of Materials." If the approximate melting temperature of steel is 2750 F the the material would be plastic at 1650 F. Even assuming a safety factor of 3, you would expect the bolts or other structural members to deform and fail near this temperature, especially with the additional weight if a jet air liner. I would assume that the live load calculations did not include the typical office equipment and an airliner plus a factor of 3. THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not steel and that the temperature of the steel members at the time of the photo is less than 1650 F.

Assuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow orange? The color of pure molten aluminum is silver, It has an emissivity of .12. Steel has an emissivity of .4 and appears orange in the temperature range of molten aluminum. The emissivity of aluminum oxide is .44 and also appears orange in the melting temperature range of molten aluminum. The emissivity of plate glass is .937 It begins to soften at 1000 F and flows around 1350 F. Silica has an emissivity of .8 Copper oxide also has an emissivity of .8. however I will assume that their effect is negligible.

Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry under ideal melting conditions. Large surface area relative to thickness, turbulence, the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most probably suffered considerable oxidation especially in contact with an open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you don't believe this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the cans may completely burn up. The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similar and likely to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tension is so high is is almost impossible to separate them.

THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect the flow to appear to be orange in color. Especially since both the entrained materials have emissivities equal to or more than twice that of iron.

Also since dross cools to a gray color and glass with impurities also turns dark. I would expect that the flow would darken upon cooling. I would also suggest that not only is the photo possible, but entirely likely.

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the melting temperature. The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.

Stephen D. Chastain



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#1738    Babe Ruth

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:35 PM

Busier than a cat covering pictures.... :innocent:


#1739    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 23 May 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Busier than a cat covering pictures.... :innocent:

The pictures speak a thousand words. :yes:

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#1740    Stundie

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:44 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 23 May 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

By George! There is color to molten aluminum after all. :w00t:
Yes there is, but it isn't the colour or viscosity of the molten metal pouring out of the WTC which is the same colour and as the same viscosity as molten steel.

View Postskyeagle409, on 23 May 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Thanks for reconfirming what I have stated all along.
You stated that aluminium has colour? No one as argued that! lol It's just the colour of molten aluminium doesn't match the molten metal.

There is no such thing as magic, just magicians and fools.