Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Belgian twins choose euthenasia


  • Please log in to reply
181 replies to this topic

#121    OverSword

OverSword

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,647 posts
  • Joined:16 Oct 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle WA USA

  • When the power of love overcomes the love of power then humanity can evolve

Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:05 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 17 January 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

That's your opinion.

The choice of euthanasia should be a choice between the individual and their doctor. If it wasn't illegal, there would be doctors willing to perform consented euthanasia. There should be non-biased witnesses though present at the request (Doctors). No family intervention, no government intervention.

I still haven't heard what it is that makes you think you have the right to intervene in someone else's life/death. How is it your business?
The point you're not getting (or possibly accepting) is that once you have legalized euthenasia it is regulated through law, at which point it ultimately falls under government supervision.  Do you really not get that?  Dense a little?

Edited by OverSword, 17 January 2013 - 06:05 PM.


#122    The Unseen

The Unseen

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,774 posts
  • Joined:24 Apr 2007
  • Gender:Male

  • Whats out there?

Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:05 PM

View PostOverSword, on 17 January 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

When people who are not terminal are granted euthenasia it's only a matter of time before people that are becoming a burden to thier families are expected to voluntarily die.  And since some peoples tolerance for inconvenience is very low they will expect grandpa to get offed just so they don't have to spend money feeding him any more.  That is one thing about this particular case which is so disturbing to me.  That a medical professional would actually kill someone who is not terminal and experiencing unbearable pain is wrong.

BM, I noticed you never answered my question so I'll pose it to all who think this was a good thing.

Last year I physically pulled a jumper off of a bridge right at the moment that he was leaning forward to go.  This person would have, by his own actions, been killed no doubt about it.  He was not happy with me at all.  Was I wrong?  Should I have just stood there and watched this man plummet to his death.

Answers?
my first responce would be to let him jump,But my first reaction would of been to stop him.I just wouldnt be able to live with myself if I would have let him jump.

Edited by The Unseen, 17 January 2013 - 06:05 PM.


#123    Euphorbia

Euphorbia

    Odd Plant Grower

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,275 posts
  • Joined:19 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Somewhere east of San Francisco

  • You can't just choose to believe something.

    Believing in something doesn't make it true.

Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

View PostOverSword, on 17 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

The point you're not getting (or possibly accepting) is that once you have legalized euthenasia it is regulated through law, at which point it ultimately falls under government supervision.  Do you really not get that?  Dense a little?


The point that you are not getting is that the government should have no say whatsoever. What is and what should be are two entirely different things.

So now you've put yourself in the gutter by calling me dense? Nice.......

Get three coffins ready.

My mistake, four coffins.

Separation of corporation and state!

#124    Helen of Annoy

Helen of Annoy

    devil's aunt

  • Member
  • 22,404 posts
  • Joined:21 Jul 2008
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Croatia/Sucamore Beach

  • Where there's a will
    there's a way.

Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:27 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 17 January 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

I'm calm as can be!

Doctors are not allowed to euthanize because of government intervention. Without it there would be doctors willing.......like Jack Kevorkian.

I’m sorry then! It must be cultural difference! Because over here exclamation marks indicate the writer is exclaiming something!

See what OverSword said, and also:
Euthanasia is one of those issues where authorities and laws, therefore the government, are necessary. It can’t be between me and dr. Kevorkian, because good doctor might be psychopath crackpot and I could be going through suicidal phase that would go away without his “assistance”.  

It’s not doctors not doing something widely accepted because of evil meddling government, it’s the highly controversial issue being brought to public awareness.
There must be laws that will allow necessary use and prevent any misuse or my life will depend on your and dr.Kevorkian’s whim. No, thanks. I’d rather have my government between your "progress" and the only life I have at the moment.

When my time comes, I’ll do it in privacy and silence, not involving half of Europe in it. Like people always did before this insane epidemic of fake personal freedom ate the common sense away.
I said fake because true personal freedom requires no Kevorkians to tell me when my time has come.

Since it became obvious that you truly don’t realize you have contradicted yourself in each post in this thread this conversation is futile from my point of view.



Edit: BTW, "dense" sounds appropriate. Not meant as an insult, it's just progressive method of calling things and phenomena by their actual, existing names.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 17 January 2013 - 06:31 PM.

Posted Image

Have I ever lost the plot while reading one of your posts?
The will to live maybe, but not the plot...  -  Junior Chubb

#125    OverSword

OverSword

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,647 posts
  • Joined:16 Oct 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle WA USA

  • When the power of love overcomes the love of power then humanity can evolve

Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 17 January 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

The point that you are not getting is that the government should have no say whatsoever. What is and what should be are two entirely different things.

So now you've put yourself in the gutter by calling me dense? Nice.......
I apologize that you're being dense.  See Helens post for an explanation of what you're being dense about.  What is and what should be????   You're kidding right?  If wishes were horses I'd have a yard full of horse turds.  Helen and I are talking about reality, not some touchy feely place where everyone is trusted to do what's right by everyone else.


#126    Helen of Annoy

Helen of Annoy

    devil's aunt

  • Member
  • 22,404 posts
  • Joined:21 Jul 2008
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Croatia/Sucamore Beach

  • Where there's a will
    there's a way.

Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

And I’d like to give an example.
I was mowing in the back of my garden and didn’t see a poor young blackbird hidden in the grass. The rotating blade hurt him, badly.
He wouldn’t live to the vet’s even if I could afford to pay that extravagance. So I run for an axe to at least make his agony shorter, and I was back in a minute. But then I stood there for a while longer, wanting to do that “faster, faster, he’s in pain, faster, god damn it!” and at the same time I couldn’t do it at all.
I did it. One blow, the end of suffering.
If I can’t forget a little blackbird, obviously at death's door, and if I still feel bad about it, what type of person can calmly kill people and be so sure it wasn't a big deal?
Who’s insane, me or dr.Kevorkian?

Euthanasia is so complex issue that every light approach to it indicates either deep misunderstanding, probably caused by lack of actual experience, either complete lack of compassion. The first is not that bad, you'll learn, the second is what made dr. Kevorkian famous.

Posted Image

Have I ever lost the plot while reading one of your posts?
The will to live maybe, but not the plot...  -  Junior Chubb

#127    keithisco

keithisco

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,184 posts
  • Joined:06 May 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rincon de Loix, Benidorm

Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:28 PM

I think the point here is the access to make the transition from life to death tolerable are held by Doctors. Doctors, generally, cannot prescribe a lethal dose of say, morphine, because they become legally liable.

I would like the option to choose for myself the time to leave this world when nothing can be done to prevent what, for me, would be an intolerable loss of dignity or self - expression, , not with paracetamol (painful death by all accounts, and not guaranteed), but with something a little more direct and painless.

I could settle my worldly affairs, say farewell to my nearest and dearest properly, and perhaps gaze up into the firmament (I was born too early to experience space flight)  whilst conducting the final act myself. At peace with the world.

Is this so wrong???


#128    Michelle

Michelle

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 15,261 posts
  • Joined:03 Jan 2004
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Tennessee

  • Eleanor Roosevelt: Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:47 PM

Everyone should have the option to leave this earth with dignity.


#129    OverSword

OverSword

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,647 posts
  • Joined:16 Oct 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle WA USA

  • When the power of love overcomes the love of power then humanity can evolve

Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:16 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 17 January 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

I think the point here is the access to make the transition from life to death tolerable are held by Doctors. Doctors, generally, cannot prescribe a lethal dose of say, morphine, because they become legally liable.

I would like the option to choose for myself the time to leave this world when nothing can be done to prevent what, for me, would be an intolerable loss of dignity or self - expression, , not with paracetamol (painful death by all accounts, and not guaranteed), but with something a little more direct and painless.

I could settle my worldly affairs, say farewell to my nearest and dearest properly, and perhaps gaze up into the firmament (I was born too early to experience space flight)  whilst conducting the final act myself. At peace with the world.

Is this so wrong???
That's not so wrong.  The problem I see with this specific case is that these two were euthanized earlier than would be advisable.  If you read the article they were deaf and were going to go blind.  They couldn't bear the thought of never seeing each other again and so out of dread of that prospect elected to be put down before that.  Not because they were currently in physical pain or because they were terminally ill but out of dread for the possible future,  and under those circumstances they received aparently medical and judicial sanction to be killed.  There may well have been more to it but this article in no way states they were at the point of requiring institutional care.  That is just wrong.  Too early.  Death with dignity at the appropriate time under the right circumstances I have no problem with.  This case I feel does not quite meet the criteria.


#130    keithisco

keithisco

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,184 posts
  • Joined:06 May 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rincon de Loix, Benidorm

Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

View PostOverSword, on 17 January 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

That's not so wrong.  The problem I see with this specific case is that these two were euthanized earlier than would be advisable.  If you read the article they were deaf and were going to go blind.  They couldn't bear the thought of never seeing each other again and so out of dread of that prospect elected to be put down before that.  Not because they were currently in physical pain or because they were terminally ill but out of dread for the possible future,  and under those circumstances they received aparently medical and judicial sanction to be killed.  There may well have been more to it but this article in no way states they were at the point of requiring institutional care.  That is just wrong.  Too early.  Death with dignity at the appropriate time under the right circumstances I have no problem with.  This case I feel does not quite meet the criteria.
I understand your point of view totally, but I refer you back to my comment:

I would like the option to choose for myself the time to leave this world when nothing can be done to prevent what, for me, would be an intolerable loss of dignity or self - expression

I think that they did not want to loose all of their major sensory capabilities. Being deaf, then going blind, may just have been such a nightmare scenario for them that they did not want to face it. Being deaf, but able to "sign" is no big issue, being deaf, and not being able to communicate with your blind brother must be terrifying. For me (and I stress only for me) this would amount to a loss of self expression that I could not live with, especially having had the ability to see and hear for so long.

I would be institutionalised, my freedoms taken away (because I could not look after myself), such a loss would be inconceivable to me.


#131    Helen of Annoy

Helen of Annoy

    devil's aunt

  • Member
  • 22,404 posts
  • Joined:21 Jul 2008
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Croatia/Sucamore Beach

  • Where there's a will
    there's a way.

Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:01 PM

Today apparently was my butting in day. 'scuse me.

View Postkeithisco, on 17 January 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

I understand your point of view totally, but I refer you back to my comment:

I would like the option to choose for myself the time to leave this world when nothing can be done to prevent what, for me, would be an intolerable loss of dignity or self - expression

As I would.


Quote

I think that they did not want to loose all of their major sensory capabilities. Being deaf, then going blind, may just have been such a nightmare scenario for them that they did not want to face it. Being deaf, but able to "sign" is no big issue, being deaf, and not being able to communicate with your blind brother must be terrifying. For me (and I stress only for me) this would amount to a loss of self expression that I could not live with, especially having had the ability to see and hear for so long.

I would be institutionalised, my freedoms taken away (because I could not look after myself), such a loss would be inconceivable to me.

They could have kept communicating, since they were not about to lose the sense of touch too. Also, you don’t need much of vision left to pick up basic info from environment.
And that’s what bothers me in that story (if it’s true and whole story... I still have issues with it). If assisted suicide is now legal in Belgium for anyone who has suicidal episode, don’t they expect a suicide tourism boom? You know, I want to off myself but I want it done in professional manner, so instead of going to the attic to hang myself, which would be my own business, why don’t I go to Belgium and have it wellness-like, involving bunch of other people and profit for some too?

Medicine is an industry but to make it industry of death so openly would be a little bit too much. I hope.

Posted Image

Have I ever lost the plot while reading one of your posts?
The will to live maybe, but not the plot...  -  Junior Chubb

#132    Render

Render

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,080 posts
  • Joined:23 Nov 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:23 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 17 January 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

Today apparently was my butting in day. 'scuse me.



As I would.




They could have kept communicating, since they were not about to lose the sense of touch too. Also, you don’t need much of vision left to pick up basic info from environment.
And that’s what bothers me in that story (if it’s true and whole story... I still have issues with it). If assisted suicide is now legal in Belgium for anyone who has suicidal episode, don’t they expect a suicide tourism boom? You know, I want to off myself but I want it done in professional manner, so instead of going to the attic to hang myself, which would be my own business, why don’t I go to Belgium and have it wellness-like, involving bunch of other people and profit for some too?

Medicine is an industry but to make it industry of death so openly would be a little bit too much. I hope.

How can you not think more deeply about this? It's a seriously that hard to actually stop and calm your mind and imagine what being deaf and blind must be like? Just think about it, for a second, and realise it's not just a monty python scenario - it's but a flesh wound- .
Posted Image

Who are you to say that they should've just stuck it out, and oh your deaf .. well just learn sign language ? Oh, now you're losing your sight and you're at the point that you're almost completely blind, well just manage to learn an entire new touch bases language in a matter of months. Having trouble walking because of the neck operation? Oh just have someone guide all freaking day then.
Having respiratory problems so you have to sleep upwards  ? Buckle up and face the music!
Going insane becuase you're locked up in yourself since the entire world is based on at least one of the two senses (sight or hearing)? Get some antidepressives then! That'll improve you're quality of life, yeah..
Extremely afraid of what's coming because you'll never be able to turn it around and are condemned to living this forever, and you'll most likely lose sense of time since you can't see or hear anything. Ah well! Sorry, that just doesn't seem frightening enough, maybe if they get another disease or two, then maybe it's worth considering ending their suffering.


And Belgium doesn't do euthanasia for ppl who feel suicidal. Is that what you got from this?? Is that how far you;re gonna try and belittle this dire situation they faced? "Oh they were just going through a suicidal phase, it would;ve passed"

Please.

Edited by Render, 17 January 2013 - 10:24 PM.


#133    OverSword

OverSword

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,647 posts
  • Joined:16 Oct 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle WA USA

  • When the power of love overcomes the love of power then humanity can evolve

Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:34 PM

Render, I'm sorry that you can't understand that this really needs to be very strictly regulated if people besides the one dying is involved.  I wonder how much money this procedure costs?  I bet it's expensive and I'll bet it's very profitable.  It's so much more complicated than just being able to have empathy for the two guys who were at some point going to lose thier sight.  You're sympathy is admirable but this scenario is more complicated and potentialy more messed up than simply making sure people die in comfort.

I get where you're coming from, I really do.


#134    Beckys_Mom

Beckys_Mom

    Sarcastic Muppet..!

  • Member
  • 51,196 posts
  • Joined:01 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ireland

  • "I hate pretentious people. I mean, what is the point in applying exorbitantly extensive vocabulary, it is just straightforwardly unnecessary".

Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostOverSword, on 17 January 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

BM, I noticed you never answered my question so I'll pose it to all who think this was a good thing.

Last year I physically pulled a jumper off of a bridge right at the moment that he was leaning forward to go.  This person would have, by his own actions, been killed no doubt about it.  He was not happy with me at all.  Was I wrong?  Should I have just stood there and watched this man plummet to his death.

Answers?

Sorry I missed this before.. Oversword,  you may well have done a good deed, but the person you stopped  as you say was not a happy camper with you.and i have no idea if they are still alive or not.   When you compare that to anyone like the two middle aged twins who after a long trial  in the end agreed to end their lives .. No one was stopping them, their rights were respected.. I am sure their family felt the same...
Thing is Oversword, you can go out tomorrow and pull someone else away, and they get cheesed off at you too for interfering.. they can just as easy go out again and make sure they end it once and for all..  My point is, you can pull 100 people off a bridge, but you cannot guarantee they will not kill themselves ..  I do not see why that was even raised .. If someone clearly wishes to end it as they see fit, then it wont matter who tries to stop them, they will do it if they feel that badly about it ..

The thing with many people is - They do not like anyone telling them how to live their lives and what they should do, they hate people interfering ..   Before you go off at me, I am not saying you have done a bad thing, in fact I am not judging your actions at all.. I am just saying that not everyone will want to be saved, some will, some wont ..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 17 January 2013 - 10:41 PM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#135    Render

Render

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,080 posts
  • Joined:23 Nov 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:41 PM

View PostOverSword, on 17 January 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Render, I'm sorry that you can't understand that this really needs to be very strictly regulated if people besides the one dying is involved.  I wonder how much money this procedure costs?  I bet it's expensive and I'll bet it's very profitable.  It's so much more complicated than just being able to have empathy for the two guys who were at some point going to lose thier sight.  You're sympathy is admirable but this scenario is more complicated and potentialy more messed up than simply making sure people die in comfort.

I get where you're coming from, I really do.

But why dont you understand that IT IS tightly regulated. Seriously, it is.
This didn't happen overnight.
How can some people be so arrogant to think they and all the doctors involved didn't go over every possible option (which they did) before they granted euthanasia. They wanted to end their lives, it's a pretty major event. Not an average tuesday thing, you can bet they thought of it all.  They're not stupid yanno.

It's not like they went to a doctor and said : ah man, i dont feel so swell to day, you mind killing me?

I get ppl thinking there is a slippery slope, and i really do understand where you are coming from also. And i've mentioned in another thread about euthanasia that it's a multi faceted complex issue. Where the psychological care of doctors executing euthanasia is also very important. And euthanasia should be the last resort, which it is and was in this case.


This was a well though out process of two men who just had no way out but this one.

Edited by Render, 17 January 2013 - 10:42 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users