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Belgian twins choose euthenasia


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#76    Rlyeh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:53 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 15 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:


Now you're just being silly. And just to state facts, those twins did not 'need' to die.
You're the one who wants to bar euthanasia as long as the individual can off themselves.


Quote

And I'm not sure what your second paragraph is all about. I am all for euthanasia given the right circumstances, as I have already stated in this thread. It is, however, my opinion that these were not the right circumstances, and I have made my reasoning quite clear already.
I was responding to joc, as the quote kind of implies.


#77    Rlyeh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:57 AM

View Postjoc, on 15 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

So, the terminally ill are dying...so we should just go ahead and put them out of their misery like a horse with a broken pelvis?  No, we shouldn't.  We have pain medication and hospice set up to help them and their families and make their last moments comfortable and memorable for the family.
If it is their choice. Pain medication only does so much.
You've just turned the terminally ill into a sentimental object for their family.


#78    Rlyeh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:00 AM

View PostOverSword, on 15 January 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

For all those who believe in this, do you think I was in the wrong when I physically prevented a man from jumping to his death from a bridge last year?
Depends if you condemned him to a worse fate.


#79    acidhead

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:18 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 16 January 2013 - 03:00 AM, said:

Depends if you condemned him to a worse fate.

.... condemned him......... hahaha

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#80    Lava_Lady

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:30 AM

If an adult in their right mind has made a decision that they no longer want to be alive for whatever reason, I will support their choice, but it should not be an impulse decision.  This is a decision that cannot be reversed.  The individual must be sure.  I'm hoping the Belgians have a law that addresses this.  Even for those who are terminally ill and want to end their suffering, should have to go through in-depth questioning and scrutiny to be sure... to BE COMPLETELY SURE THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT.

After having a dear friend commit suicide, I had nightmares that in the final seconds of her consciousness, she changed her mind... this is an absolutely horrifying thought to me.  It is a helpless feeling but, it is too late to do anything about it.  And I knew her suffering too, she had tried many times and finally suceeded so I think I can say she was completely sure, now.

A lot of people say that suicide is a "selfish act" that it hurts the family and friends... yes it does, but, think about the pain that causes someone to want to die.  Maybe we should let them go, if they know for sure...

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#81    acidhead

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:36 AM

View PostLava_Lady, on 16 January 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

If an adult in their right mind has made a decision that they no longer want to be alive for whatever reason, I will support their choice, but it should not be an impulse decision.  This is a decision that cannot be reversed.  The individual must be sure.  I'm hoping the Belgians have a law that addresses this.  Even for those who are terminally ill and want to end their suffering, should have to go through in-depth questioning and scrutiny to be sure... to BE COMPLETELY SURE THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT.

After having a dear friend commit suicide, I had nightmares that in the final seconds of her consciousness, she changed her mind... this is an absolutely horrifying thought to me.  It is a helpless feeling but, it is too late to do anything about it.  And I knew her suffering too, she had tried many times and finally suceeded so I think I can say she was completely sure, now.

A lot of people say that suicide is a "selfish act" that it hurts the family and friends... yes it does, but, think about the pain that causes someone to want to die.  Maybe we should let them go, if they know for sure...

booooooo!

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#82    Yamato

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:56 AM

View PostOverSword, on 14 January 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Got to agree with ExpandMyMind, assisted suicide should provide a way out for those incapable of doing it themselves.  They could have just grabbed a bottle of whiskey, drove to a nice view, run garden hose from the exhaust intop the car and shared drinks until they fell asleep forever.
Good point.   Death by CO is about as painless and easy as anything else.   If fear of dying is a reason not to kill yourself, then I think the rest of the world should take a passive role in waiting for that desire to die to overwhelm that fear of dying.   Just because someone is afraid doesn't mean their fear is meaningless or irrational.   Maybe they have real reasons to fear dying.  Maybe they'll traumatize loved ones who wouldn't agree with their decision.  Maybe they don't trust the benefactors of their will after they're gone.  We can speculate at length, yet there is no insurance that death is the right decision just because there's a degree of desire for it.   I think that matters because death is obviously irreversible.   Many people want to die because they're depressed.  They might also have disabilities or incurable diseases.  We should be extremely cautious with people in society all too willing to assist them in that desire, for a price.



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#83    Rlyeh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:07 AM

View Postacidhead, on 16 January 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

.... condemned him......... hahaha
I mean just look at you.


#84    acidhead

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:11 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 16 January 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

I mean just look at you.

my dad can beat up your dad

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#85    joc

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:25 AM

View PostOverSword, on 15 January 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

For all those who believe in this, do you think I was in the wrong when I physically prevented a man from jumping to his death from a bridge last year?

Because believe me when I tell you he was not happy with me.

To me it's one thing to choose to die when you are terminally ill and are getting to the point where you're totaly disabled, or like these two apparently did, become very depressed about how you were going to eventually be over the course of time and go before you are incapacitated.  That's the part that bothers me about this, is that these two were not terminal and had not yet lost thier sight.

edit to add: BM that top part is for you.
You know what side I am on here.  But...my first 'knee jerk' reaction is...not that I think it was wrong...rather, I am firstly inclined to think it was...not very smart, and of course, I say that, having no knowledge of the particulars of the situation.  Generally, the thing to do is talk them away from the edge as best you can, until the police arrive, and then let the professionals do what they do.  However; for all I know, you may be the police...in which case...I salute you!  (picture a little smilie guy here saluting)

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#86    joc

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:27 AM

View Postacidhead, on 16 January 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

my dad can beat up your dad
I can beat up your dad...and my dad ...wait my dad is 81, not really a fair fight...I can beat up your mom too!

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#87    acidhead

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:31 AM

View Postjoc, on 16 January 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

I can beat up your dad...and my dad ...wait my dad is 81, not really a fair fight...I can beat up your mom too!

heyyyyy.... let's leave the mom's outta this?  ....  okay?.... hahha

lol

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#88    Bonecrusher

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

View Postjoc, on 15 January 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:


They can still...feel.  They can still ...taste.   They can still...smell.  So, they could set down together, enjoy a bowl of bean chili together...passing notes in braille telling each other how good that chili tasted and...excuse me brother...Whew!  I know that didn't just rip out of my ass!
They could still fashion themselves a life of sorts with their remaining senses being heightened.
So they can still  smell coffee,tell if somebody's hot or cold just by touch alone or know if chilli peppers are about to burn their gob.
However my sense of balance is appalling despite being able to see or hear.
So I might as well be dead to the world and if that's the case I should be dead in the ground.
I can certaintly guide myself with my white stick but I feel my balance is going to ruin all the good work.
So I'll need my sisters assistance just to guide the tablets into my mouth providing it gets to the stage where it's legal.
Tbh I think blind people are doing just okay because their level of support is top class.
It might compound a few disability experts if they found out their latest client has Aspergers,deaf as a post and blind as a bat.
Would I though count on their assistance or just ignore it and commit euthanisia anyway.


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#89    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:51 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 16 January 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

You're the one who wants to bar euthanasia as long as the individual can off themselves.


I was responding to joc, as the quote kind of implies.

1. Well, yeah. How is this silly? While you may not agree with it there can be no doubt it is actually quite a reasonable thing to suggest, since, well, most euthanasian laws were brought in, in part, for this reason. And in some countries the doctor actually only 'helps' the patient kill themselves. While on the other hand, your point definitely was silly.

2. And, actually, you quite clearly were responding to me. The entire text of your post (post 28):

Posted Yesterday, 03:57 PM
Posted ImageExpandMyMind, on 15 January 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

I like your point, but it's going to the extreme a bit, no? If they can use a razor, take an elevator, tie some rope, maybe even swallow some pills themselves, why should a doctor and, as joc stated, the government, be brought in? Especially considering that their pain would only be emotional. Another word for that type of 'pain' is mental. What next? Assisted suicide for manic depressives?

Why should someone in pain be forced to go to such measures? Should those who need operations also be forced to do it themselves?

BTW who else is going to regulate euthanasia? Some guy in a dark alley?

As you can see, a response to me, not joc.


#90    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:05 PM

View PostHasina, on 16 January 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

So you know what ALL doctors stand for? I understand they agree to the Hippocratic oath or have we forgotten Dr. Kevorkian?

What about people who attempt suicide, fail, try again and succeed? Did they want to lve for just a bit longer till they found the right coffin size? No, because there are differing circumstances for why people try it, why people can't go through with it, and why some succede. Sometimes it's a mental problem, sometimes it's a cry for help, and sometimes it's because you're inbetween a rock and an unknown hard place and at least the rock is familiar.

You misunderstand. I meant by 'can't go on with life' the millions of depressed people with thoughts of killing themselves, not people who actually can't go on due to actual suffering brought on by physical problems.

View PostEuphorbia, on 16 January 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:



The doctor's oath should be amended to also include euthanasia. While not all doctors would do this, there would always be those that would and although there would be legalities to work out, it should be legalized!

I, too, agree it should be legalised, but not by the same legal definition as many here believe it should, it would seem.





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