1394 replies to this topic

[Babe Ruth]

Tiggs, on 21 March 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Regarding the custody question - none of the children killed at Sandy Hook would fall into the category of "Custody of the State" for this legislation.

Making that de jeure.  De facto, when a child gets on the school bus in the morning, and until he gets off of it that afternoon, he is in the material custody of the state.

And did you know that if the ammo fired by Lanza was full metal jacket, the rounds would have merely penetrated through those tiny bodies?  So it goes with Geneva Convention, eh?

If it was hollow point, then it would have expanded and taken out organs and such.  Nobody has mentioned which ammo was used.  That kid was really really really good with a rifle....

[Tiggs]

Kowalski, on 21 March 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Your right. It varies from state to state and county to county. Pennsylvania has adopted state-wide BLS and ALS protocols which allow paramedics to pronounce apparent death and EMTs to pronounce obvious (Depcapitation, Rigor motrtis, Dependent lividity) death. Now here in Texas a paramedic can withhold life saving measures based on obvious signs of death, but they DO NOT PRONOUNCE. They must get a pronounciation time from a ME or JP.

Not entirely sure what the situation is in Connecticut, regarding who can officially pronounce time of Death, but as paramedics can make the call not to resuscitate, I don't believe that it makes any effective difference in regards to this situation.

In short - I see reports claiming that some paramedics found it difficult that they were there, but had nothing to do. I see no reports that any paramedic who was there believed that protocol had been breached.

[Tiggs]

Babe Ruth, on 21 March 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Making that de jeure.  De facto, when a child gets on the school bus in the morning, and until he gets off of it that afternoon, he is in the material custody of the state.

I've already linked what is meant by "Custody of the State" in this exact legal context. It's not, nor never will be, school attendance. Your desire to call school attendance "material custody" aside - why are we still having this particular conversation, exactly?

Quote

And did you know that if the ammo fired by Lanza was full metal jacket, the rounds would have merely penetrated through those tiny bodies?  So it goes with Geneva Convention, eh?

If it was hollow point, then it would have expanded and taken out organs and such.  Nobody has mentioned which ammo was used.  That kid was really really really good with a rifle....

Again. I have no official confirmation of the type of ammunition used. What I do know, is that Senator Feinstein said this:

"Senator, I've been on this committee for 20 years. I was a mayor for nine years. I walked in — I saw people shot. I've looked at bodies that have been shot with these weapons. I've seen the bullets that implode. In Sandy Hook, youngsters were dismembered."

[Kowalski]

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"Senator, I've been on this committee for 20 years. I was a mayor for nine years. I walked in — I saw people shot. I've looked at bodies that have been shot with these weapons. I've seen the bullets that implode. In Sandy Hook, youngsters were dismembered."

Bullets don't implode they explode. Her HEAD is imploded...

[Tiggs]

Kowalski, on 21 March 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Bullets don't implode they explode. Her HEAD is imploded...

I'm sure that no-one's ever confused implode and explode before, during a heated discussion.

[Kowalski]

While surfing the web, I came across and extremely interesting article, about how EMT's can provide medical service and still preserve the Crime Scene:
http://danlimmer.com...reservation.pdf

Here's what is interesting about this story, written by an EMT, by the way:

On the second and third page of this article, it describes how EMT's would react to a shooting victim. I found it most interesting that is says "The shooting just occurred,
and although the wound could prove fatal, it by no means would stop you from resuscitating—even in the absence of vital signs.

I also have to wonder why more bodies weren't brought to the ER. The Sandy Hook Hospital said it had 100 extra trauma people on standby. And only TWO kids are brought in??
Who determined that none of the children could be revived?? Why weren't EMTs rushing in there to render aid??

Edited by Kowalski, 21 March 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[Tiggs]

Kowalski, on 21 March 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I also have to wonder why more bodies weren't brought to the ER. The Sandy Hook Hospital said it had 100 extra trauma people on standby. And only TWO kids are brought in??

Dead is dead, regardless of the number of trauma people you have on standby.

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Who determined that none of the children could be revived??

The attending paramedics who arrived in the initial (two?) ambulances sent to the scene.

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Why weren't EMTs rushing in there to render aid??

Because that's not how Mass-casualty incidents work.

[Kowalski]

If there were victims still alive  (Depending where a person has been shot, it can take some time before they die) and the EMTs didn't render aid, they can have their liscense taken away. They have to make EVERY effort to try and resusitate. I don't understand why more paramedics weren't angered by being turned away. I would have been. I know, that some people probably couldn't have been saved, but ALL OF THEM??

[Stellar]

Quote

On the second and third page of this article, it describes how EMT's would react to a shooting victim. I found it most interesting that is says "The shooting just occurred,
and although the wound could prove fatal, it by no means would stop you from resuscitating—even in the absence of vital signs.

Yes, that's standard practice I think --- if you're not dealing with a mass casualty incident. If you have more casualties than EMTs, then that changes, though. You need to triage the casualties so that you don't waste your efforts on someone unlikely to survive and leave someone likely to survive to bleed out. For example, if there are casualties with and 1 paramedic, the paramedic must first decide which one's most likely to survive (triage) and then focus on him/her. If 1 casualty has a massive bleed but still has vital signs, and the other is VSA, he's not going to try to resuscitate the one that's VSA while letting the other casualty bleed out and die.

On another note, could you tell me on which page I can find a link talking about how EMTs were prevented from treating the casualties? I'd like to read up more on it, but there's 42 pages here to search through.

[Kowalski]

AsteroidX, on 20 March 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Describes standard of care for medical teams responding to disasters under Connecticut Law and adds a giant red flag about the medical examiner:

Also:




Also this article: http://www.washingto...l?tid=obnetwork

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EMTs and firefighters stood like sentinels outside the school, waiting to be useful, even after a paramedic exited the building and told Chief Halstead that everybody who was still inside would not be coming out.

ONE paramedic says no one can be saved??

[Tiggs]

Kowalski, on 22 March 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

ONE paramedic says no one can be saved??

Were you expecting a barber's quartet sort of arrangement? The number of messengers isn't necessarily a reflection on the number of paramedics working inside.

As per above - there were at least two ambulance's worth at the scene initially.

[ouija ouija]

ouija ouija, on 20 March 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Thanks for that information and the links.

Dr.Carver states that the Chief Medical Office does not make public the autopsies of homicide victims because they are very conscious of protecting the privacy of grieving relatives. Therefore, he says, the proposed bill is redundant ....... HOWEVER, what the new bill does do is override this section of the previous statutory and regulatory scheme:
' 3) Under seperate statutory provisions autopsy reports are available to the general public if the decedent was in the custody of the state at the time of the death.'

The pupils at the Sandy Hook school were in the custody/care of the state at the time of their death ...... yes?

ouija ouija, on 20 March 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Sorry to keep labouring this point, but surely when children are in school the teachers, as representatives of the state, have a duty of care to the children, they are in loco parentis? The children are literally in their custody, they make decisions as to where the children can go in the building and who they can go with; if there is an emergency they decide what action to take regarding the children   ...... if I was a lawyer I would have a good go at making that interpretation of 'custody' in a court of law! At the very least, that paragraph has been rather sloppily worded.  It only says 'custody' not 'legal custody'.

Tiggs, on 21 March 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

I've already linked what is meant by "Custody of the State" in this exact legal context. It's not, nor never will be, school attendance. Your desire to call school attendance "material custody" aside - why are we still having this particular conversation, exactly?

My two posts above are why.

ouija ouija, on 20 March 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Getting back on track: if the Chief Medical Officer/Office says that the new bill is unnecessary, who was it who introduced the bill in the first place and more importantly, why? And why did others involved in the passage of the bill go against the suggestion of the Chief Medical Officer?

Why limit the bill to to under 18's? Do those connected to older victims not need protection too(if you're going to go down that road)?

[Babe Ruth]

It seems to me that great effort is necessary to keep the official story on life support.  So many problems, such a loss of vital signs...

[Tiggs]

ouija ouija, on 22 March 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

My two posts above are why.

...

So this post:

Quote

The letter from the Coroner refers to Connecticut General Statute 19a 411 b.

The relevant text is:

As used in this section, a "person in the custody of the state" is a person committed to the custody of (1) the Commissioner of Correction for confinement in a correctional institution or facility or a community residence, (2) the Commissioner of Children and Families, or (3) the Commissioner of Developmental Services.

is that totally invisible to everyone else except me?

[Simbi Laveau]

Tiggs, on 21 March 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Not entirely sure what the situation is in Connecticut, regarding who can officially pronounce time of Death, but as paramedics can make the call not to resuscitate, I don't believe that it makes any effective difference in regards to this situation.

In short - I see reports claiming that some paramedics found it difficult that they were there, but had nothing to do. I see no reports that any paramedic who was there believed that protocol had been breached.

Tiggs, on 21 March 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Not entirely sure what the situation is in Connecticut, regarding who can officially pronounce time of Death, but as paramedics can make the call not to resuscitate, I don't believe that it makes any effective difference in regards to this situation.

In short - I see reports claiming that some paramedics found it difficult that they were there, but had nothing to do. I see no reports that any paramedic who was there believed that protocol had been breached.

Paramedics cannot just not resuscitate . Its different from state to state ,but technically,unless rigor mortis had set in ,or they had obvious death ,every one of those kids should have had a traumatic code run on them ,wIth transport to the hospital ,with cpr en route.
Another reason why I dont buy any of it.  And i worked as a medic in CT. I know their protocols .
Triage does apply ,but 20 kids ,is not a massive amt for a multi casuality event.

Any medic worth their snuff,would have called for massive back up ,and started ivs and CPR ,on any viable patients,of which I know there had to be many . Unless their heads were blown clean off ,codes are started on kids of trauma .Especially kids .
END OF STORY .
If any cop told me not to move a kid in cardiac arrest ,because it was a crime scene,I have told them ,arrest me,and gome back to my job .

Edited by Simbi Laveau, 22 March 2013 - 06:21 PM.