54 replies to this topic

[and then]

shadowhive, on 22 January 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

The problem with that is religion simple does not help with that. Each religion claim to speak for 'the creator' and they have been very capable of using that to make sure we can't live in peace. They have used that to kill, to torture, to rape and to subjugate the weak. And this is from people that claim we are a creation of some creator and claim to know what its thinking. So when you act like a belief in a creator is the cure to all world's ills and that belief is used right now, today to cause the very problem's you claim it solves it makes me extremely skeptical.

There's not enough evidence to suggest we WERE a creation at the moment. Sure, religious texts say we are, but when half of the stories taken as fact now are meant to make taken as symbolism well, it kinda shows off the possibility that its flawed. Youd need real, hard evidence that we were a creation outside of a religious text and that just isn't there now.

You know what the stories of the apocalypse are? Scaremonging. And they are NOT helpful in the slightest. Saying the world is going to end every five seconds isnt goig to help anyone or make things better. You know what it does? It either makes people panic, which makes them do stupid things or it makes people think you're crazy. Which again, is not helpful.

As Ryleh said above. We have to sort these problems out ourselves instead of sitting back and expecting god to come and sort it out for us. Otherwise nothing will get done and nothing will change. Worse is that I wouldn't put it past religious people to actively be making things worse in hopes pf speeding their apocalypse along so their god will come faster.

You misrepresent my words.  I have not said that human beings should not attempt to make life better - to try and heal and build, I said that with all the knowledge we have accrued we still are no closer to saving ourselves.  Respectfully, Shadowhive - do you really believe that mankind - as a whole - is better off today than it was a thousand years ago?  Obviously I'm not talking about the fruits of science - of course longevity and knowledge have increased.... but do you think we have gotten any better about curbing our instincts to kill, destroy or subjugate the weakest among us?  And my point is only that as valuable as knowledge is, it still is not the ultimate marker for civilization.  NAZI Germany began the 30's as the best educated state on the planet.  More PhD's and researchers than anywhere else.  Do you see the point I'm trying to make?  I'm not arguing that knowledge is useless or immaterial - only that it is not going to change our NATURE as humans.  If it were, don't you think we'd have shown more progress by now?  I'm not sure how old you are but I'm 52 and barring some accident I fully expect to see the prophecy of the end times fulfilled in my lifetime.  That is NOT a cause for dismay.  It's like saying you can see light at the end of a dark night or that a deadly disease is about to be cured.  Yes, there will be great pain before healing is finished, but the pain was going on anyway.

[and then]

Rlyeh, on 22 January 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

I read what you said, doesn't change my response. You want your deity to come and solve humanity's problems.

What I WANT is basically immaterial.  It's what I believe will happen.  I have no need to force that belief on anyone else but I also don't shirk sharing it as a hope for those who want hope.  Cause in case you haven't noticed, this world is going down fast and all the light of knowledge is just showing us a quicker way to the bottom.  Just out of curiosity, how many millennia do you imagine it will take for us to bring about sanity and civility, to stop the killing and depredations we foist on the weak?  We've been at this for several of them already.

[Rlyeh]

and then, on 22 January 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

What I WANT is basically immaterial.  It's what I believe will happen.  I have no need to force that belief on anyone else but I also don't shirk sharing it as a hope for those who want hope.  Cause in case you haven't noticed, this world is going down fast and all the light of knowledge is just showing us a quicker way to the bottom.  Just out of curiosity, how many millennia do you imagine it will take for us to bring about sanity and civility, to stop the killing and depredations we foist on the weak?  We've been at this for several of them already.

You think ignorance and hope in archaic delusions are going to fix the problem? Humanity has been following your mind set for quite sometime, look where it has got us.

[Render]

A very clear example of the dangers of Creationism, it trully makes one more stupid:

Louisiana senator asks if E. coli evolve into persons

Quote

It’s a painfully familiar scene. A Louisiana state senator (Mike Walsworth) is asking a high-school science teacher about the teaching of evolution in class. He asks if there’s any direct example of evolution that can be taught in class. In response the science teacher settles on one of the most elegant and convincing experiments in evolutionary biology – Richard Lenski’s decades-long study in which he froze selected generations of E. coli bacteria while allowing others to evolve. The differences between the evolved and original bacterial populations clearly demonstrated evolution.
At that point the good senator asks if the E. coli evolved into a person.
The senator’s quip might be regarded as a particularly startling admission of ignorance – not to mention anthropomorphism – if it weren’t one of the oldest ploys in the creationist playbook. The march of evolutionary science has left creationists very few places to hide, but one of the most common, apparently killer questions they have lobbed from these nooks is to question the difference between “microevolution” and “macroevolution”.

http://blogs.scienti...e-into-persons/

How embarrassing.

This is also a nice example of research and proof of evolution, i suggest all disbelievers watch that video.

Edited by Render, 22 January 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[shadowhive]

and then, on 22 January 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

You misrepresent my words.  I have not said that human beings should not attempt to make life better - to try and heal and build, I said that with all the knowledge we have accrued we still are no closer to saving ourselves.  Respectfully, Shadowhive - do you really believe that mankind - as a whole - is better off today than it was a thousand years ago?  Obviously I'm not talking about the fruits of science - of course longevity and knowledge have increased.... but do you think we have gotten any better about curbing our instincts to kill, destroy or subjugate the weakest among us?  And my point is only that as valuable as knowledge is, it still is not the ultimate marker for civilization.  NAZI Germany began the 30's as the best educated state on the planet.  More PhD's and researchers than anywhere else.  Do you see the point I'm trying to make?  I'm not arguing that knowledge is useless or immaterial - only that it is not going to change our NATURE as humans.  If it were, don't you think we'd have shown more progress by now?  I'm not sure how old you are but I'm 52 and barring some accident I fully expect to see the prophecy of the end times fulfilled in my lifetime.  That is NOT a cause for dismay.  It's like saying you can see light at the end of a dark night or that a deadly disease is about to be cured.  Yes, there will be great pain before healing is finished, but the pain was going on anyway.

No, but when you speak of the apocalypse you sound almost as if you want it.

I think we are better of now then we were a thousand years ago, yes. That's not to say there's not been bumps in the road. Throughout history there have been people (like the nazi''s) that have subjugated people. The only difference between the nazi's and those from the past is they had more effective and cruel ways of achieving that subjugation.

Knowledge is a tool. It can be used like the nazis did, to kill and cause pain or it can be used to save lives and end suffering. In that respect, it's much like anything else. Take a steak knife for instance. Now that knife can be used for it's intended purpose (food) or it can be used to harm or even kill. Now simply having a steak knife doesn't mean youre automatically going to use it to kill or on food. You choose what to do with it.  Hell, you could choose option 3 and do nothing. Knowledge is a little like that, in you can go either way with it but the choice is yours though. Take another example. A person can train for year's at medical school to be a surgeon. At the end of the day they have enough knowledge to save lives or end them. But it is the person's choice to do one or the other.

I do, however, think it will change out nature as humans. It already has. We just need to keep going, to emphasise the positive in us. But you know what? Talk of the pocalypse is NOT going to help that.

I think anyone that wants the apocalypse (indluding you) is seriously disturbed. You want millions and millions of more people to die so that your god will come and fix things. Sorry but that sounds quite frankly abhorrent. You talk about wanting humanity to better ourselves, well start by looking in the damn mirror. Wanting milions to die is not making you a better person.

Quite frankly, I'm distubed that you think the apocalypse something which will apparently end the lives of millions is NOT a cause for dismay.

I'm 26, so half as old as you and I have no desire to see the world destroyed because of some insane, genocidal deity. The fact that you do says a lot about you and it's not good.

Edited by shadowhive, 22 January 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[and then]

Rlyeh, on 22 January 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

You think ignorance and hope in archaic delusions are going to fix the problem? Humanity has been following your mind set for quite sometime, look where it has got us.

But what about this vaunted knowledge that is so respected?  Was it not there during the last 70 years?  Are you saying that it had no effect or that faith somehow neutralized it's effects?  Believe what you will but I think you're unwilling to look beyond your biases.  Blaming ignorance of people of faith is only going to take you so far then you have to admit that knowledge doesn't get the job finished by itself - if your honest with yourself.

[and then]

shadowhive, on 22 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

No, but when you speak of the apocalypse you sound almost as if you want it.

I think we are better of now then we were a thousand years ago, yes. That's not to say there's not been bumps in the road. Throughout history there have been people (like the nazi''s) that have subjugated people. The only difference between the nazi's and those from the past is they had more effective and cruel ways of achieving that subjugation.

Knowledge is a tool. It can be used like the nazis did, to kill and cause pain or it can be used to save lives and end suffering. In that respect, it's much like anything else. Take a steak knife for instance. Now that knife can be used for it's intended purpose (food) or it can be used to harm or even kill. Now simply having a steak knife doesn't mean youre automatically going to use it to kill or on food. You choose what to do with it.  Hell, you could choose option 3 and do nothing. Knowledge is a little like that, in you can go either way with it but the choice is yours though. Take another example. A person can train for year's at medical school to be a surgeon. At the end of the day they have enough knowledge to save lives or end them. But it is the person's choice to do one or the other.

I do, however, think it will change out nature as humans. It already has. We just need to keep going, to emphasise the positive in us. But you know what? Talk of the pocalypse is NOT going to help that.

I think anyone that wants the apocalypse (indluding you) is seriously disturbed. You want millions and millions of more people to die so that your god will come and fix things. Sorry but that sounds quite frankly abhorrent. You talk about wanting humanity to better ourselves, well start by looking in the damn mirror. Wanting milions to die is not making you a better person.

Quite frankly, I'm distubed that you think the apocalypse something which will apparently end the lives of millions is NOT a cause for dismay.

I'm 26, so half as old as you and I have no desire to see the world destroyed because of some insane, genocidal deity. The fact that you do says a lot about you and it's not good.

Again you make it personal.  I have never said that I want to see the carnage that is coming, you are projecting that motivation on to me because of your opinions about my stance on religion.  It would be abhorrent for any human being to actually desire that kind of carnage.  But just because I believe in Bible verses about what's coming doesn't mean that I designed the plan or was asked to approve it, you know?  And if my choice is to live in a steadily darkening world with all the obscenities that are happening around us - like Sandy Hook for example - and to do so without hope except for man to finally get a clue OR to trust in the faith of my fathers then I will take that faith.  Yes a great evil and much pain is coming and I am in no position to stop it.  I can only do what is right in my own life and do my best not to harm others.  You make me out almost as some ghoul, rubbing my hands in delight over the thought of so many deaths.  I cannot imagine thinking such things of any human - not even my worst enemy.

[Rlyeh]

and then, on 22 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

But what about this vaunted knowledge that is so respected?  Was it not there during the last 70 years?  Are you saying that it had no effect or that faith somehow neutralized it's effects?  Believe what you will but I think you're unwilling to look beyond your biases.  Blaming ignorance of people of faith is only going to take you so far then you have to admit that knowledge doesn't get the job finished by itself - if your honest with yourself.

What is the alternative to knowledge? Ignorance.
You're going on about knowledge bringing us closer to destruction, when your "solution" if you can call it that is impotence, let God sort it out, he'll kill all the bad non-believers real good.

[shadowhive]

and then, on 22 January 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Again you make it personal.  I have never said that I want to see the carnage that is coming, you are projecting that motivation on to me because of your opinions about my stance on religion.  It would be abhorrent for any human being to actually desire that kind of carnage.  But just because I believe in Bible verses about what's coming doesn't mean that I designed the plan or was asked to approve it, you know?  And if my choice is to live in a steadily darkening world with all the obscenities that are happening around us - like Sandy Hook for example - and to do so without hope except for man to finally get a clue OR to trust in the faith of my fathers then I will take that faith.  Yes a great evil and much pain is coming and I am in no position to stop it.  I can only do what is right in my own life and do my best not to harm others.  You make me out almost as some ghoul, rubbing my hands in delight over the thought of so many deaths.  I cannot imagine thinking such things of any human - not even my worst enemy.

You try and make assurances there, but at the end of the day you know what I still see? A man that will be happy when god comes down and slaughters his way through the non-believers.

What you hope for is no different than the nazis: peace through the genocide of everyone else. At the end of the day all you sound interested in is not in the interest of humanity, but saving your own skin.

I take humanity over your god any day. At least we hae a chance of stopping the violence. Your god's answer is to create so much more the rivers will be red with blood.

At the end of the day, you choose to believe and follow a god that would do that. You don't have to believe in a god that'll kill millions to achieve 'peace', but you do anyway.

Believing in something because it says so in the faith of your fathers is absurd. If everyone thought like that we'd still be ignorant, treating women as property and executing people left and right. Thankful the faith of your fathers is not really a good excuse anymore.

Edited by shadowhive, 22 January 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[shadowhive]

and then, on 22 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

But what about this vaunted knowledge that is so respected?  Was it not there during the last 70 years?  Are you saying that it had no effect or that faith somehow neutralized it's effects?  Believe what you will but I think you're unwilling to look beyond your biases.  Blaming ignorance of people of faith is only going to take you so far then you have to admit that knowledge doesn't get the job finished by itself - if your honest with yourself.

Your religion has had the better part of 2 millenia and look what it did in that time. It's not made things better. It held humanity back for centuries and tkes credit for a large amount of subjugation, murder, war and rape. And yet you have the gall to critisise knowledge, which we are improving upon all the time for not working faster?

Knowledge improves all the time. As such what we know now is more than what we knew 70 years ago. To act otherwise is absurd. Like now we know how to cure certain diseases. For each one it takes years to find a cure. Your attitude is like expecting to find the cure for a new disease after studying it for five minutes.

Edited by shadowhive, 22 January 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[and then]

shadowhive, on 22 January 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Your religion has had the better part of 2 millenia and look what it did in that time. It's not made things better. It held humanity back for centuries and tkes credit for a large amount of subjugation, murder, war and rape. And yet you have the gall to critisise knowledge, which we are improving upon all the time for not working faster?

Knowledge improves all the time. As such what we know now is more than what we knew 70 years ago. To act otherwise is absurd. Like now we know how to cure certain diseases. For each one it takes years to find a cure. Your attitude is like expecting to find the cure for a new disease after studying it for five minutes.

Man you are ignoring my central point.  I didn't say - ever - that knowledge was useless.  Just that it isn't going to answer the heart question.  I think you know what I'm talking about so I'll leave it there.  Thanks for the civil discussion though.

[shadowhive]

and then, on 22 January 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Man you are ignoring my central point.  I didn't say - ever - that knowledge was useless.  Just that it isn't going to answer the heart question.  I think you know what I'm talking about so I'll leave it there.  Thanks for the civil discussion though.

The heart of the question being the 'nature of man' I suppose?

Religion has not helped improved the nature of man. If anything, it's stunted it. People have used knowledge to try and improve things and, historically religion has stood in the way of such improvements. Take this topic as an example. Knowledge has been improved and we've seen examples of evolution. Yet, despite that, creationists want their view teaching, despite it having no merit and evolution thrown out.

Also note the kind of language that has been used. Whenever the religious don't get their way they throw out absurd things, like accusing this boy of causing a hurricane. Or like you, claiming everything is a sign of the apocalypse. Its absolutely absurd the way these people act and that they can get away with it because of their faith.

[wolfknight]

Wow this young man has taken on the Bible Belt for sure. I believe he is doing to right thing and I support him. He is right Creation is not a science it is a belief. My being a christian I belive in the bible and well as science. The King James bible which most christian read was rewritten so that King James could be a divorce. Words that couldn't be translated were left out or a different was put in its place. I hope this youngs man sticks to his ways. Good Luck.

[Mac E]

I stand by this young man. There's a quote from NDT, "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."

[Doug1o29]

and then, on 22 January 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Science has answered many questions except the most important ones- why can't we live in peace with each other?  Why do we kill, rape, torture and subjugate the weak?

We have not yet learned to use our discoveries.  There remain serious gaps in our knowledge, especially our knowledge of our own species.  Myth remains dominant in our highest offices.

The myth that there is not enough to go around; therefore, we must take what others have - doesn't matter whether you are a street hood applying that with a gun, or Mitt Romney using financial and legal systems, the result is the same.

We have the technology to provide every person on earth with enough Vitamin A to abolish Viatmin A deficiency blindness.  We don't do it because of greed.  The Congress would rather spend the money on killing people than on helping them.

During Gulf War I, I was taking a course in spatial analysis.  Sitting right beside me was an Iraqi Air Force colonel.  Our countries were at war, but we worked together to make the world better.  He was a Muslim; I was a Quaker.  Peace is possible.  Religion doesn't have to get in the way.

Quote

The derision I see exhibited here toward the concept of a Creator God is a form of pride I think.  Pride that humans have come so far and don't need anything from anyone except to shut up and let us keep experimenting, we'll work it all out, thanks.  But the reality is that with the absolute EXPLOSION of knowledge we've experience over the past 70 years or so, mankind has only moved closer to the edge of annihilation.  Think not?  In 1945 we learned the secret that makes it possible for men to actually, physically destroy all life on this planet.  We have avoided that fate for a few decades but the world grows darker every day.  The hate in men's minds and souls is not conquered with knowledge, else we'd all be saints by now living in a Utopia of harmony.  Religion is NOT what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about the ability of the creation (us) to simply acknowledge that we ARE a creation and that the force which did the creating knows more about how we should live than we do - at least if we are to survive as a species and grow into the next level of evolution.  I believe the stories of apocalypse are the warning to us that not many will survive our arrogance and pride.  We will be given our own way - right up to the point where ALL life is about to be extincted from this blue planet but THEN it stops and the Creator will deal with those doing the destroying - whether in the name of religion OR science.  Bumpy ride ahead folks.  And I think it's in our lifetime.

I don't think that anything will intercede to protect us from ourselves.  The universe ABSOLUTELY doesn't care about us, or our problems or our planet.  If we so disrupt our life-support system that it can't function, we will die.  We need to grow up and do it fast.  And that is as much the responcibility of religion as it is of science.
Doug