Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Chemotherapy Boosts Cancer Growth


  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#31    WoIverine

WoIverine

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 6,721 posts
  • Joined:16 Sep 2008
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:17 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 20 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Will they:
1) cure cancer?
2) make 100% you won't get cancer?
3) gives you bit more chances not to get cancer?
Which one?


Can you give references to the studies of that? Don't bother with YT, Pravda, and similar "sources".

Here's a good place to start reading:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22211760

If you're too thick to realize that antioxidants help to prevent cancer and fight it...there's no helping you at all. Medical science has even shown this and you don't even know that! Your skepticism and opinions are invalid based on your sheer ignorance of...damn near everything!

Edited by WoIverine, 20 January 2013 - 10:22 PM.


#32    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,107 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:22 PM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 20 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

Acupuncture is a five year degree,AFTER college . So you need all the prerequisite someone who's going into any medicine field needs ,which includes doctors   ,nurses,,PAs....Biology ,chemistry,bio chem ,anatomy ,gross anatomy ...we have to do them all,just like your doctor does ....duh ...then its another 5 year's ,so its a nine year degree deary.
[...]
So, basically, you are learning mainstream medicine, and just a tiny bit of acupuncture? Ok, granted, you know a lot.



View PostSimbi Laveau, on 20 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

[...]
You sound almost jealous .
[...]
Not at all.



View PostSimbi Laveau, on 20 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

[...]
And as I said,there been no cases of deaths from herbs,by a licensed herbalist,in the usa,in over 20 years,if not more.
[...]
And how many cancer patients were cured in over 20 years with quack medicine?


View PostSimbi Laveau, on 20 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

[...]
Your case is one from Taiwan ,and its one case.
[...]
Ok, another one (link, in Lithuanian): baby (1.5 year old) died 'cause mother "cured" him with herbs. Whos fault that is? Brainwashed mother, or quackery peddlers?


View PostSimbi Laveau, on 20 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

[...]
Maybe look up deaths from vioxx ,deaths from amiodarone,deaths from just about every federally approved drug on the market ,including aspirin and Tylenol .
One idiocycratic case,owes ahh herbs are bad,but let's ignore the 100s of THOUSANDS OF DEATHS YEARLY ,from **** we approve as safe,and then keep on the market,even after its shown to cause...well death !
Look a little harder .lol
And you have statistic on that, on every drug? Basically, I can die from consuming too much water. So what? Can I blame water company for that? Ah, right, plumber...

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

#33    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,107 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:26 PM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 20 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

O

I charge what I deserve to make for my time. I don't hurt anyone ,and I help people .What is it you do ?
I also belong to ACUPUNCTURISTS WITHOUT BORDERS .
I didn't go to sandy hook ,because of my feelings on it,but I work with drug addicts and 911 responders,all the time,for no fee at all.

Oh yeah,just like doctors without borders. We do a lot ,just to help ,,FOR FREE.
I occ work at the AIDS clinic on 18 th ,for nothing....just to help  .

I give all city workers a break on price,and elderly get a huge discount ,but you knew that. My regular fee is under 100$ btw,but you knew that too .
[...]
Oh, ok, you're mother Teresa II. Right....


View PostSimbi Laveau, on 20 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

[...]
You know very little about acupuncturists and herbalists in the usa ......  .tut .  
Quacks, as in any other country.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

#34    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,107 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:32 PM

View PostWoIverine, on 20 January 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Here's a good place to start reading:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22211760

If you're too thick to realize that antioxidants help to prevent cancer and fight it...there's no helping you at all. Medical science has even shown this and you don't even know that! Your skepticism and opinions are invalid based on your sheer ignorance of...damn near everything!
Did you, actually, read my questions?!
So again: will antioxidants make 100% sure you will not get cancer, or not?!  What was the cause of the death of Anthony Sattilaro, again, huh?

Edited by bmk1245, 20 January 2013 - 10:32 PM.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

#35    Raven_Tear

Raven_Tear

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 33 posts
  • Joined:19 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Gold Saucer

  • Invention, my dear friends, is 93% perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% evaporation, and 2% butterscotch ripple.

Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:37 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 20 January 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:


Oh grow up and join reality.

Say that to yourself the next time a loved one dies. I've been through it enough.


#36    tipotep

tipotep

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,164 posts
  • Joined:14 Sep 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

  • Muchos Spectacular

Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:40 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 20 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Did you, actually, read my questions?!
So again: will antioxidants make 100% sure you will not get cancer, or not?!  What was the cause of the death of Anthony Sattilaro, again, huh?

What kind of question is that  ? Of course it won't prevent cancer 100% of the time , does chemo or any other cancer treatment work 100% of the time on all patients .... of course not , there are many different cancers and many different ways to treat them , trying to break it down the way you have is just not being realistic .

I'm going to take a guess here and say that you have not had any close dealing with cancer suffers ?

My father in law has had cancer for the last 2 years , he spent 18 months of chemo and the cancer neither grew or shrunk , it has just stayed the same but ........ the amount of other problems that have come up due to the chemo has been incredible , the chemo takes away all your ability to fight other normal infections and this is where the problem lies .

It seems that chemo can do more harm than good most times ( It does work for some people however  ) and the study seems to show just that .

I agree with Wolverine , a blend of both medical and alternative treatment is what is required , it can't make it any worse , that's for sure !

BMK - your attitude is rubbish , I can bet my bottom dollar that if YOU got cancer and modern medicine couldn't  fix it , you would go looking for alternative methods to try to stay alive , or is your ego too big and you would just go out calling them all quacks ?

TiP

The people who post in the fun and games section have a serious problem with gerbils, this includes and is not limited to Helen, JC and Oversword - they need to seek professional help stat.

#37    Coffey

Coffey

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 5,671 posts
  • Joined:09 Oct 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norwich UK

  • "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:27 AM

View Postbmk1245, on 20 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Will they:
1) cure cancer?
2) make 100% you won't get cancer?
3) gives you bit more chances not to get cancer?
Which one?


Can you give references to the studies of that? Don't bother with YT, Pravda, and similar "sources".



There is a reason that tribes like Native Americans, Mayans and Old Chinese tribes said this: "White man brings disease and growths" etc etc.


They didn't suffer from cancer like we do. Because they ate the right things. That is a historic fact.

View Postbmk1245, on 20 January 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Oh, ok, you're mother Teresa II. Right....


Quacks, as in any other country.


This is hilarious.


You're arguments are pretty much slagging people off and crying Quack. You can't even back up what you say. lol

View Postbmk1245, on 20 January 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:


And how many cancer patients were cured in over 20 years with quack medicine?


How many are killed by chemo? How many are killed by the right food intake?

How many don't even get cancer by the right food intake? How many get more cancer from chemo?

Edited by Coffey, 21 January 2013 - 09:31 AM.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.

#38    Render

Render

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,080 posts
  • Joined:23 Nov 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:11 PM

View PostCoffey, on 21 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:



They didn't suffer from cancer like we do. Because they ate the right things. That is a historic fact.



How many don't even get cancer by the right food intake? How many get more cancer from chemo?

Well cmon, you have to admit that is a severe oversimplification. There are environmental factors, age related factors, stress factors, and so many more.


It is well known that chemo is the destroyer of everything. There are A LOT of companies that try and develop medicines as a replacement to chemo or an add-on to it in an attempt to reduce toxicity or to heighten the effectivity of chemo so they can shorten the treatment duration, etc.

Only a few of these medicines make it through regulatory authorities. This is because a variety of reasons : the financial cost doesn't outway the benefit, the effectiveness is raised but the toxicity also.
And you have to realise that many things that appear in the sensational news as the new super medicine don't actually always work out in real tests. You can't just go and say the fda is a joke and doesn't do it's job because it doesn't pass EVERYTHING that appears in the news. That would be the opposite of what they are supposed to do.
If you think medicines don't get through because bigger companies wont let the smaller companies bring it on the market then just go a lil further in that thinking and realise they would just buy the company because there is a lot of money in a working medicine.

I think it sounds very ungreatful to just dismiss the countless companies and research facilities that work around the clock to find actual medicines, like they are out to destroy the world.


#39    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,107 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

View PostCoffey, on 21 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

There is a reason that tribes like Native Americans, Mayans and Old Chinese tribes said this: "White man brings disease and growths" etc etc.


They didn't suffer from cancer like we do. Because they ate the right things. That is a historic fact.
[...]
Not exactly:

Quote

In autopsies performed on over 1000 mummies from Chile and Peru,
Gerszten and Allison found only two examples: a subcutaneous lipoma on
the right side of the chest of an adolescent male and a rhabdomyosarcoma
on the right cheek of a male child approximately 12 to 18 months old
(Gerszten and Allison, 1991).
(J.W. Verano, J. World Prehist. (1997) 11(2) 237-268)
Taking raw numbers we get (not that its valid) 200 per 100000
Cancer rates nowadays - 200-300 per 100000.


Other points (yours and tipotep's) I'll address later.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

#40    FurthurBB

FurthurBB

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,380 posts
  • Joined:21 May 2008

Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:01 PM

View Postseeder, on 19 January 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

US Scientists Find That Chemotherapy Boosts Cancer Growth

"Chemotherapy can damage healthy cells? Say it isn’t so? You don’t need a degree to figure this one out. Poison kills indiscriminately– always has and always will. While damaging healthy cells, chemotherapy also triggers them to secrete a protein that sustains tumour growth and resistance to further treatment. Researchers in the United States made the “completely unexpected” finding they claimed while seeking to explain why cancer cells are so resilient inside the human body when they are easy to kill in the lab"

http://www.wakingtim...-cancer-growth/



.

That article was truly horrible.  For one thing, the study was looking at why most cancers become resistant to chemotherapy after time.  They found the release of a WNT family growth factor released by fibroblasts in the tumor microenvironment to be one of the likely causes.  Treatments for cancer are horrible because they kill human cells, but I have seen more miracles than I can count and it gets better all the time.  Information contained in the research paper from the article will help.


#41    Coffey

Coffey

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 5,671 posts
  • Joined:09 Oct 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norwich UK

  • "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:14 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 21 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Not exactly:
(J.W. Verano, J. World Prehist. (1997) 11(2) 237-268)
Taking raw numbers we get (not that its valid) 200 per 100000
Cancer rates nowadays - 200-300 per 100000.


Other points (yours and tipotep's) I'll address later.


Yeah 2 cases from 1000.

1 in 3 women and 1 in 2 men will develop cancer in their lifetime in our society. So huge difference in numbers there.

View PostRender, on 21 January 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Well cmon, you have to admit that is a severe oversimplification. There are environmental factors, age related factors, stress factors, and so many more.


It is well known that chemo is the destroyer of everything. There are A LOT of companies that try and develop medicines as a replacement to chemo or an add-on to it in an attempt to reduce toxicity or to heighten the effectivity of chemo so they can shorten the treatment duration, etc.

Only a few of these medicines make it through regulatory authorities. This is because a variety of reasons : the financial cost doesn't outway the benefit, the effectiveness is raised but the toxicity also.
And you have to realise that many things that appear in the sensational news as the new super medicine don't actually always work out in real tests. You can't just go and say the fda is a joke and doesn't do it's job because it doesn't pass EVERYTHING that appears in the news. That would be the opposite of what they are supposed to do.
If you think medicines don't get through because bigger companies wont let the smaller companies bring it on the market then just go a lil further in that thinking and realise they would just buy the company because there is a lot of money in a working medicine.

I think it sounds very ungreatful to just dismiss the countless companies and research facilities that work around the clock to find actual medicines, like they are out to destroy the world.

The companies who find alternatives and actual cures don't get funded. As the documentary Simbi posted the trailer to proves. There is good doctors etc out there, they just get shot down when trying to make a difference.


Here is the full documentary:



View PostFurthurBB, on 21 January 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

That article was truly horrible.  For one thing, the study was looking at why most cancers become resistant to chemotherapy after time.  They found the release of a WNT family growth factor released by fibroblasts in the tumor microenvironment to be one of the likely causes.  Treatments for cancer are horrible because they kill human cells, but I have seen more miracles than I can count and it gets better all the time.  Information contained in the research paper from the article will help.

What is your profession? Out of curiosity.

Edited by Coffey, 21 January 2013 - 02:19 PM.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.

#42    CrimsonKing

CrimsonKing

    Common Sense Aficionado

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined:18 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:DarkSide of TheMoon

  • "It does not require a majority to prevail,but rather an irate,tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds" Sam Adams

Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:24 PM

Have to agree with most of what wolverine said,most do not understand what all we put into our bodies with the average american diet.All those additives that most can not pronounce have a very profound effect on the human body and not in a good way.I have helped a few diabetics i know completely clear away all of there symptoms just by following a certain diet and nutritional supplements,wont go into any advice but refined sugars and starches kill!

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#43    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,107 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:32 AM

View Posttipotep, on 20 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

What kind of question is that  ? Of course it won't prevent cancer 100% of the time , does chemo or any other cancer treatment work 100% of the time on all patients .... of course not , there are many different cancers and many different ways to treat them , trying to break it down the way you have is just not being realistic .
[...]
I asked that to make sure it won't come up as a cure (not that it was implied by wolverine). And I'm not against antioxidants in neither way.


View Posttipotep, on 20 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

[...]
I'm going to take a guess here and say that you have not had any close dealing with cancer suffers ?
[...]
Not close relatives, but few people I know.


View Posttipotep, on 20 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

[...]
It seems that chemo can do more harm than good most times ( It does work for some people however  ) and the study seems to show just that .
[...]
Thats why scientists work to wind better ways to deal with cancer.


View Posttipotep, on 20 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

[...]
BMK - your attitude is rubbish , I can bet my bottom dollar that if YOU got cancer and modern medicine couldn't  fix it , you would go looking for alternative methods to try to stay alive , or is your ego too big and you would just go out calling them all quacks ?
Can't say for sure, but firstly I would exhaust all possibilities based on science, and not rubbish.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

#44    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,107 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostCoffey, on 21 January 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Yeah 2 cases from 1000.
[...]
Did you accounted for age distribution? No. Here is cancer incidence by age in GB. What was life expectancy in pre Columbian America? Up to their thirties (for example, paper R.Storey, American Anthropologist (1985) 87(3) 519-535). So you have to compare results for the same age group. From incidence by age data for 2008-2010 for age group 0-39, we get cumulative rate of 0.9%, i.e. 9 per 1000, which more or less comparable to 0.2% (2 per 1000).


View PostCoffey, on 21 January 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

[...]
1 in 3 women and 1 in 2 men will develop cancer in their lifetime in our society. So huge difference in numbers there.
[...]
There are many factors to that, and one (of many) important - population in Western countries (well, in other too) getting older. Note the cancer incidence rates for 75+ years old.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

#45    Coffey

Coffey

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 5,671 posts
  • Joined:09 Oct 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norwich UK

  • "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:37 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 22 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Did you accounted for age distribution? No. Here is cancer incidence by age in GB. What was life expectancy in pre Columbian America? Up to their thirties (for example, paper R.Storey, American Anthropologist (1985) 87(3) 519-535). So you have to compare results for the same age group. From incidence by age data for 2008-2010 for age group 0-39, we get cumulative rate of 0.9%, i.e. 9 per 1000, which more or less comparable to 0.2% (2 per 1000).


There are many factors to that, and one (of many) important - population in Western countries (well, in other too) getting older. Note the cancer incidence rates for 75+ years old.

Comparing 1 age group.... lol

Asian countries and other areas where they mostly eat natural food has had a higher average life expectancy for a long time. Nothing to do with medicines etc.

Look at the oldest person on the planet and where they are from. Top 3 oldest people living are from Japan and Japan has the highest average life expectancy.


They don't eat half the garbage we do in the west.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users