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Meningitis B vaccine gets European licence

bexsero vaccine meningitis b

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#16    Copasetic

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:54 PM

 ExpandMyMind, on 22 January 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Are meningitis cases really so high as to warrant all children being vaccinated? I'm not so sure.

Yes (see my above post for more info as well). In the US we have about 3-4,000 cases of meningiococcial infections a year. Are most common serogroups are A, Y and B, IIRC. Even treated meningiococial meningitis (well really all bacterial meningitis) has a mortality rate somewhere between 10-20%, which is scary high. Think about that, that means that even despite aggressive medical treatment potentially 1 in 5 people that get it will die anyway.

Ifink, iirc, parts of Europe have larger problems with group B than we have here in the states. And I remember that in other parts of the world meningiococcial infections are as high as 17-20 per 100,000 (vs the 1-2 per 100,000 we have in the US).

So yes, this is a good thing and will save many lives. I just hope it gets licensed in the US. The FDA is pretty stingy about licensing vaccines developed in other countries here, even ones in the EU and even ones with lots of evidence supporting their use :no:


#17    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:49 AM

 Copasetic, on 28 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Still doling out bad information?



Wrong, meningitis---'itis' is from the Greek and Latin root for "inflammation of x". So meningitis is inflammation of the meninges. The meninges are membranes which cover CNS tissues, made of 3 layers: the dura, arachnoid and pia.

Lots of things (many more than two) can cause meningitis. You can have bacterial, viral, fungal or aseptic meningitis (chemicals, autoimmune, etc). In each of these 4 main categories you have lots of different possible offending agents.



I appreciate you were a EMT, the world needs lots of EMTs--It doesn't make you an expert on medicine, pathophys etc. You learn BASIC life support skills as an EMT. Not pathophys, not medical micro etc. Hence you were an ENT and not an MD.



No nonsense. Again there are many types of meningitis. Viral meningitis, while scary from a patient's stand point, is much less threatening to life than bacterial or fungal. The poo viruses, or better picornaviruses are rather good at causing viral meningitis. This family of viruses includes viruses such as echo, coxasckie and polio viruses. Generally the course of viral meningitis is self limited and doesn't require major medical intervention, sometimes people "tough out" these infections at home never realizing they had viral meningitis.

However there are some viral infections we really worry about causing meningitis. HSV is one of those viruses. HSV 1 and 2 have a different predilection for causing meningitis vs encephalitis vs meningoencephalitis. However that is only a general rule both (as well as other herpes family viruses, such as CMV, EBV and chickenpox) are capable of cause either or. Herpes family viral brain infections tend to have a much more serious course and we tend to treat them more aggressively because of that.

HIV also causes a primary brain infections. Other less common but certainly very dangerous viruses are ones like Dengue, yellow-fever and the bunyaviridea as well all capable of causing meningitis/meningioencephalitis.


Bacterial meningitis (cue scary music) is the one you hear all the fear about in popular media. Bacterial meningitis is very serious and the natural history of bacterial meningitis without medical intervention is.....death. Every time. Unfortunately, sometimes even with treatment bacterial meningitis results in death.

There are lots of bacteria capable of causing meningitis but lets just go through the most common by age group. In Newborns (think 0-6 months of life) bacterial meningitis is most commonly caused by Group B strep (Streptococcus agalactiae)--which is why all preggo ladies are tested for it, E. coli and Listeria. All but the latter normally come from exposure during passage through the birth canal. The latter, Listeria, can actually cross the placenta as well.

In children the most common causes are Streptococcus pneumonia (also the most common cause of pneumonia), Neisseria meningitidis (meningiococcus) and Haemophilus influenza capsular type B (which we thankfully don't see much of anymore in developed nations because of the HiB vaccine--go ahead insert your rant about vaccines here). That distribution stays about the same throughout adult with meningiococcus taking the lead for a while in early adult life (20s); more on meningiococcus in a minute. As you get to 60s and 70s you start to get more 'exotic' bacteria showing up like gram negative rods (think E. coli, klebsiella etc) and Listeria showing up again.

-Ill save fungi and aseptic for another day.

**You'll notice that:
1. You were wrong about exposure, you're exposed to lots of potential meningitis causing organisms everyday
2. ALL these infectious causes are actually contagious, not "1 of 2" as you claim.



Uhh no. More to the OP. The problem we've had before this isn't that we haven't had a meningiococcial vaccine, we have. What we haven't had though is a vaccine to capsular polysaccharide B.

Here's the quick and dirty on how vaccines work.

For you body to create immunity to an antigen you need two things. 1 you need a t cell response, t cells are then capable of priming b cells and creating long lasting immunity (read memory cells). 2 you need the b cell response, which is the antibody making arm of the humoral immune response. To mount this sequence of events you need protein antigen to active t cells. T cells aren't capable of 'priming' b cells without protein antigen. B cells are capable of making antibody to just polysaccharide (think sugars) by themselves, however you can't establish long last immunity in this way. We get around this by conjugating polysaccharide antigens to proteins to provide long lasting immunity.

The problem with some pathogenic bacteria, such as meningiococcus, is they contain polysaccharide (think sugars) coats which help them evade the immune system by making them harder to phagocytize and helps "hide" their proteins from the immune system. There are different serovars of bacteria (think of them kind like a subspecies) which have different capsular makeups from each other. Previously we have had meningiococcial vaccines against 4 of the 6 capsular serotypes that almost exclusively cause human disease (I believe there are actually 12 or 13 serotypes IIRC)--that is serovars A, C, Y and W.

Serogroup B has many antigenic similarities to human neuronal cells, which has made developing a vaccine against it prohibitive in the past. Which is unfortunate because meningiococcus B certainly causes its fair share of bacterial meningitis (not to mention other bad things like meningiococcial septicemia and Waterhouse-Friderichsen syndrome), however it appears Novartis has found a solution to this problem and developed a working vaccine.

By the way, vaccines are particularly profitable. If these pharma companies were so evil they wouldn't develop a vaccine against type B (which isn't going to make them lots of money), they would just come up with better abx which penetrate the meninges for treating meningiococcial meningitis.



I'm sorry but again, being an EMT and having an undergrad degree in biology (undergrad degrees in biology really don't teach you anything about medicine, come to think of it an undergrad degree in biology doesn't teach you all that much biology, it does serve as a jumping off point if you wanted to go get further education though) doesn't actually give any medical expertise at all. Really none.

So until you've seen someone literally decompensating on the hospital bed from bacterial meningitis with their blood pressure tanking in the crapper right before your eyes, peticheia popping up every time you walk in to the room and you end up coding them right there, despite you pumping **** loads of 3rd gen cephalosporins in them, blasting them with heavy ass broad specs like meropenem administered intrathecally, pressors, epi, IV fluid boluses etc--Then you can come talk about how much "medicine" you do and know.


*rolls eyes*
No ,but I see you're still trying oh so hard to convince everyone that I am ,with your incessant lack of any actual practical hands on knowledge ,sitting behind a computer screen,cutting and pasting .
I had to take a very unpleasant course of rafampin when I was exposed via a patient .

How does one get fungal meningitis again ?
Who need a vaccine for a meningitis that isn't contageous ?
And I wasn't an EMT .I was a NYC paraMEDIC.
I can do a few surgical proceedures ,give meds,intubate,read a 12 lead EKG , ,and we work in lieu of an MD ,hello.
My hospital was the first to give throbolytics in nyc because we were under the auspices of Dr Stephen Lynn.
I'm trained to do any internal line ,nasally intubate ,ans place a chest tube .
Google dr Lynn .Yes,Roosevelt hospital .
Knock yourself out.
I have to know to recognise a medical issue,and make a diagnosis ,before i give a med ,now dont I .
I'm a 911 first responder btw ,which I did after I left the service .
I have had more patients who were in cardiac arrest ,,that I and my partner recussitated ,who actually walked out of the hospital ,than any other team in Manhattan .
I have commendations from Gullianni ,Dinkins and mayor Koch ,for bravery ,valor ,and excellence ,in the line of duty .

*coughs*

Any meningitis you cannot catch,has nothing to do with this kind of vaccine,now does it,so i only noted ones  that are of a concern to someone who would get the vaccination .... .

And isn't meningitis ,the IATROGENIC KIND ,what all those people got from that vaccine made up in massachutsets .so ya,those kinds don't need a vaccine .No need to note them  ... ..again ,you cannot catch it from another person .No need to discuss them in light of a vaccine .Right ?
Some moron has to give you a shot of a medication to get that one,or you need a previous ongoing medical condition  ....

ahem
I don't cut and paste,I type out what I know,because I don't have to google it or cite an article .

Oh and ,I have my masters in Chinese medicine . I also graduated from St Johns university with a degree in biology .
My first two years were pharmocology ,and I hated it,so I switched over to bio .
Just because I was a medic ,doesn't mean I don't have a degree *snip*

Edited by Saru, 31 January 2013 - 02:52 PM.
Removed personal insult

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#18    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:42 AM

 ExpandMyMind, on 24 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:



The bubonic plague has already been cured, or rather, more or less successfully treated.


That's why you have to wonder why we need a vaccine for it .

http://www.californi...accine.html?m=1

Would appear they've been working on it since long before these two alleged cases in California .
Hmmmmm....

http://www.scienceda...80730140829.htm

Edited by Simbi Laveau, 29 January 2013 - 04:50 AM.

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#19    Copasetic

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

*rolls eyes*
No ,but I see you're still trying oh so hard to convince everyone that I am ,with your incessant lack of any actual practical hands on knowledge ,sitting behind a computer screen,cutting and pasting .
I had to take a very unpleasant course of rafampin when I was exposed via a patient .

Actually as I've pointed out to you before, I'm not copying and pasting anything. You can copy bits of my text into Google and check if you'd like. Nor am I sitting around with an open book or webpage writing as read. Believe it or not, there are people in this world that have this knowledge from studying it. Being 2/3 of the way through the US medical licensing process that was all things I needed to know for medical boards. Any second year med student in the US with any hope of passing step 1 would be able to rattle off what I just did (and probably in more detail to boot as I'm now further removed from step 1). So please stop with the accusations that I am just copying and pasting this material and maybe refamiliarize yourself with the site rules.  


 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

How does one get fungal meningitis again ?

Are you asking because you would like to learn? I don't have time to cover the fungals like I did with bacteria at the moment. It is infectious meningitis and you can get it through exposures. Unlike bacterial and viral meningitis, when there is a fungal etiology it normally is not transmissible from person to person. It is more rare than bacterial or viral, but still happens in perfectly healthy people. We just had a M&M on a patient, non-immunosuppressed, with histoplasma meningitis.


 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

Who need a vaccine for a meningitis that isn't contageous ?

Bacterial and viral meningitis IS contagious. Especially again, the two most common bacterial causes in adults: pneumococcus and meningiococcus. Hence you know, the whole vaccine thing. Also why it is important to get pneumococcal vaccines, especially in people immunosuppressed or who have trouble with encapsulated organisms.


 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

And I wasn't an EMT .I was a NYC paraMEDIC.
I can do a few surgical proceedures ,give meds,intubate,read a 12 lead EKG , ,and we work in lieu of an MD ,hello.
My hospital was the first to give throbolytics in nyc because we were under the auspices of Dr Stephen Lynn.
I'm trained to do any internal line ,nasally intubate ,ans place a chest tube .
Google dr Lynn .Yes,Roosevelt hospital .
Knock yourself out.
I have to know to recognise a medical issue,and make a diagnosis ,before i give a med ,now dont I .
I'm a 911 first responder btw ,which I did after I left the service .
I have had more patients who were in cardiac arrest ,,that I and my partner recussitated ,who actually walked out of the hospital ,than any other team in Manhattan .
I have commendations from Gullianni ,Dinkins and mayor Koch ,for bravery ,valor ,and excellence ,in the line of duty .

That's great Simbi. And the world needs paramedics too they do an important job. I love talking call in the ER and working with paramedics and EMT on call in, all of ours are great guys and girls. Here's the rub though, you were a paramedic. Not a doctor. A paramedic is trained in basic life support. You don't learn about the pathophysiology of meningitis--Or heck even the pathophysiology of anything. You don't learn the art of the differential, you don't learn a lot of things about medicine. You learn life support through algorithms--While that is no doubt important, that certainly doesn't make you any more of an expert on vaccines, meningitis etc than some Joe off the street who didn't even graduate high school.

What you are trying, and failing to do, is make an argument from authority. The problem is you aren't credentialed nor an authority on what you are arguing about and the knowledge you've expressed thus far on the topic is indicative of someone who is uneducated about the subject. Sure you might know enough lingo to fool a layperson here and there, but to anyone who's done a more intensive study of the subject your ignorance shows through.

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

Any meningitis you cannot catch,has nothing to do with this kind of vaccine,now does it,so i only noted ones  that are of a concern to someone who would get the vaccination .... .

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here, its kind of disjointed and abstract. I suspect you are trying to defend your position that there are only "2 kinds of meningitis". It would reflect much better on you, if you actually learned something here instead of persisting in trying to maintain the illusion that you knew what you were talking about. I'm sure people who like your posts would actually be more impressed that you were able to assimilate new information, than just seeing your double down on your ignorance of the subject.

Any type of medical practitioner, whether that be a paramedic or a doctor should know when they don't know and know when to ask. That's something I see on a regular basis at the hospitals I'm at and it is a pretty intensely graded area in the clinical years of medical training. I hope you are humble enough in real life and for people who are trusting you as "patients" to know when your out of your depth of knowledge and seek help and this charade here is part of your internets-persona. At least if you are this arrogant and cocksure about what you think you know of medicine in real life its hard to sue CAM practitioners (watch out though that medicolegal landscape is quickly changing and will be even more so in the near future)!!!

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

And isn't meningitis ,the IATROGENIC KIND ,what all those people got from that vaccine made up in massachutsets .so ya,those kinds don't need a vaccine .No need to note them  ... ..again ,you cannot catch it from another person .No need to discuss them in light of a vaccine .Right ?
Some moron has to give you a shot of a medication to get that one,or you need a previous ongoing medical condition  ....

Yes, it wasn't a vaccine though. It was lumbar steroid injections and the steroid was made a compounding pharmacy in MA. It looks at this point the problem was there sterility practices and contaminants of a couple different types of molds, but I haven't been following it that closely--You know the free time of a clinician and all :(

No this vaccine (again this is for serogroup B meningiococcus) wouldn't have helped. I'm not sure what your point is about that. As I pointed out previously both viral and bacterial meningitis are contagious and a real-life problem here in the US and in other parts of the world. Again as I pointed out there are about 3-4,000 meningiococcial meningitis infections each year with a dangerously high mortality rate. Meningiococcus can spread like wildfire through young adult populations living in tight quarters, like college dorm rooms or military barracks.

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

ahem
I don't cut and paste,I type out what I know,because I don't have to google it or cite an article .

That's great Simbi, neither do I. Perhaps it would behoove you though to research something before you write about it when it is a subject you really don't know about. It might reflect better on you.

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

Oh and ,I have my masters in Chinese medicine . I also graduated from St Johns university with a degree in biology .
My first two years were pharmocology ,and I hated it,so I switched over to bio .
Just because I was a medic ,doesn't mean I don't have a degree *snip*

Again that is great. I remember from our previous talks that you had an undergrad degree in biology. Good stuff that is one of my 3 undergraduate degrees as well. Again though, as an undergrad in biology you really don't learn much about this subject. An undergrad biology degree gives you the basics and introduction to many fields of biology. Most institutions you take 1 microbiology class--Never mind a medical microbiology class (which you take a full year of in medical school). You don't take pathology as an undergrad biology student (again you do in medical school, note not paramedic), nor gross anatomy (most undergrad biology programs in the US don't even require you to take human anatomy, only some type of vertebrate anatomy). You get an intro to physiology etc. The point is, none of that really qualifies you to be an authority on this subject so using that to "bolster" your argument about it is moot.


#20    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM

 Copasetic, on 29 January 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:



Actually as I've pointed out to you before, I'm not copying and pasting anything. You can copy bits of my text into Google and check if you'd like. Nor am I sitting around with an open book or webpage writing as read. Believe it or not, there are people in this world that have this knowledge from studying it. Being 2/3 of the way through the US medical licensing process that was all things I needed to know for medical boards. Any second year med student in the US with any hope of passing step 1 would be able to rattle off what I just did (and probably in more detail to boot as I'm now further removed from step 1). So please stop with the accusations that I am just copying and pasting this material and maybe refamiliarize yourself with the site rules.  




Are you asking because you would like to learn? I don't have time to cover the fungals like I did with bacteria at the moment. It is infectious meningitis and you can get it through exposures. Unlike bacterial and viral meningitis, when there is a fungal etiology it normally is not transmissible from person to person. It is more rare than bacterial or viral, but still happens in perfectly healthy people. We just had a M&M on a patient, non-immunosuppressed, with histoplasma meningitis.




Bacterial and viral meningitis IS contagious. Especially again, the two most common bacterial causes in adults: pneumococcus and meningiococcus. Hence you know, the whole vaccine thing. Also why it is important to get pneumococcal vaccines, especially in people immunosuppressed or who have trouble with encapsulated organisms.




That's great Simbi. And the world needs paramedics too they do an important job. I love talking call in the ER and working with paramedics and EMT on call in, all of ours are great guys and girls. Here's the rub though, you were a paramedic. Not a doctor. A paramedic is trained in basic life support. You don't learn about the pathophysiology of meningitis--Or heck even the pathophysiology of anything. You don't learn the art of the differential, you don't learn a lot of things about medicine. You learn life support through algorithms--While that is no doubt important, that certainly doesn't make you any more of an expert on vaccines, meningitis etc than some Joe off the street who didn't even graduate high school.

What you are trying, and failing to do, is make an argument from authority. The problem is you aren't credentialed nor an authority on what you are arguing about and the knowledge you've expressed thus far on the topic is indicative of someone who is uneducated about the subject. Sure you might know enough lingo to fool a layperson here and there, but to anyone who's done a more intensive study of the subject your ignorance shows through.



I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here, its kind of disjointed and abstract. I suspect you are trying to defend your position that there are only "2 kinds of meningitis". It would reflect much better on you, if you actually learned something here instead of persisting in trying to maintain the illusion that you knew what you were talking about. I'm sure people who like your posts would actually be more impressed that you were able to assimilate new information, than just seeing your double down on your ignorance of the subject.

Any type of medical practitioner, whether that be a paramedic or a doctor should know when they don't know and know when to ask. That's something I see on a regular basis at the hospitals I'm at and it is a pretty intensely graded area in the clinical years of medical training. I hope you are humble enough in real life and for people who are trusting you as "patients" to know when your out of your depth of knowledge and seek help and this charade here is part of your internets-persona. At least if you are this arrogant and cocksure about what you think you know of medicine in real life its hard to sue CAM practitioners (watch out though that medicolegal landscape is quickly changing and will be even more so in the near future)!!!



Yes, it wasn't a vaccine though. It was lumbar steroid injections and the steroid was made a compounding pharmacy in MA. It looks at this point the problem was there sterility practices and contaminants of a couple different types of molds, but I haven't been following it that closely--You know the free time of a clinician and all :(

No this vaccine (again this is for serogroup B meningiococcus) wouldn't have helped. I'm not sure what your point is about that. As I pointed out previously both viral and bacterial meningitis are contagious and a real-life problem here in the US and in other parts of the world. Again as I pointed out there are about 3-4,000 meningiococcial meningitis infections each year with a dangerously high mortality rate. Meningiococcus can spread like wildfire through young adult populations living in tight quarters, like college dorm rooms or military barracks.



That's great Simbi, neither do I. Perhaps it would behoove you though to research something before you write about it when it is a subject you really don't know about. It might reflect better on you.



Again that is great. I remember from our previous talks that you had an undergrad degree in biology. Good stuff that is one of my 3 undergraduate degrees as well. Again though, as an undergrad in biology you really don't learn much about this subject. An undergrad biology degree gives you the basics and introduction to many fields of biology. Most institutions you take 1 microbiology class--Never mind a medical microbiology class (which you take a full year of in medical school). You don't take pathology as an undergrad biology student (again you do in medical school, note not paramedic), nor gross anatomy (most undergrad biology programs in the US don't even require you to take human anatomy, only some type of vertebrate anatomy). You get an intro to physiology etc. The point is, none of that really qualifies you to be an authority on this subject so using that to "bolster" your argument about it is moot.


Most paramedics I know,can out diagnose an MD in a heartbeat. I've called anticholinergic overdose in the field,without any tests at ny disposal .
And a doctor of oriental medicine should be allowed to be called that .An OMD ,but the AMA in this country has a p***y fit because we steal all their patients .
I know acupuncturists that gross 400K a year .

So I'm a doctor ,and I almost went to medical school .i also have more actual medical knowledge than you .....not crap on a sheet some guy gave me because some shill up on high says its fact ,when its lies .

You sit here and preach at me, because you're in some sort of post graduate program ,run by the very shills trying to kill anyprogress in proper medicine,western or otherwise ,because think you know more than everyone else.

Guess what,you don't,and the moment you used the term CAM ,which is ONLY used by the MDs who hate us,I know exactly where you're coming from ,but I did before this.

Does everyone here know,that most professors teaching medical school ,own HUGE holdings in pharmacutical stocks .
Ergo,it behooves them to churn out pharm crazy baby doctors .All the Ivy league colleges especially .

So they instill in their students..... prescribe and prescribe poisons,while assuring the patient its safe .
Uh huh.
Not intererested in anything you have to say ,as you are a condescending stuck twank .You have been to me since the first time I posted in here,because you think you're better than everyone else ,because you look at flow charts on a computer screen all day.

Good luck in life ,because you will kill people with your beliefs .
I know I wont,and I never did as a medic either .

Oh and ,to get a degree in an acu college,its another FIVE YEARS,after your undergrad degree . You also need all the pre reqs a medical student does ,ans I did a one year program for paramedicine .
So I have ten years college total .Six years post graduate .
All of which are in the medical field .
An acupuncture board exam has four modules btw ,one of which is OSHA .
You would like to believe we are all hicks in the woods with no education ,but I would bet all my cats lives ,I could do exactly what you're doing now,and pass easily ,but you could never be a medic or pass an acupuncture college,both acu and herbs .


Edited by Simbi Laveau, 29 January 2013 - 10:50 PM.

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#21    Queen in the North

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:24 PM

 Simbi Laveau, on 24 January 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

There are two forms of meningitis. One is not contageous,one is .One is more deadly than the other .

Not being funny, but even I know that there is more than 2 types of meningitis. And as we're chucking so-called 'credentials' around, I'd just like to point out that I learnt this in my first semester at university.

~

I wonder whether they'll add it to the list of routine vaccinations for children. I guess it's likely, as the Men C vacc is a part of the vaccination schedule for children (in the UK at least, not sure about the states), and that's less common than B.

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#22    Copasetic

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:58 PM

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Most paramedics I know,can out diagnose an MD in a heartbeat. I've called anticholinergic overdose in the field,without any tests at ny disposal .
And a doctor of oriental medicine should be allowed to be called that .An OMD ,but the AMA in this country has a p***y fit because we steal all their patients .
I know acupuncturists that gross 400K a year .

Well that made me lol.

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

So I'm a doctor ,and I almost went to medical school .i also have more actual medical knowledge than you .....not crap on a sheet some guy gave me because some shill up on high says its fact ,when its lies .

No you're not. You can keep telling yourself your a doctor, but that simply isn't true. And you have no idea how much medical knowledge I have, but hey thanks for playing.

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

You sit here and preach at me, because you're in some sort of post graduate program ,run by the very shills trying to kill anyprogress in proper medicine,western or otherwise ,because think you know more than everyone else.

Oh come now, now your just starting to make this up as you go along! I didn't preach at you, I told you were wrong and ignorant about a subject. If you didn't have such hubris you might have realized that and educated yourself  before trying to expatiate on the subject in such ill-informed fashion.

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Guess what,you don't,and the moment you used the term CAM ,which is ONLY used by the MDs who hate us,I know exactly where you're coming from ,but I did before this.

Uh but that is what it is. Its complimentary and alternative medicine, not medicine. Again, you're not a doctor.

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Does everyone here know,that most professors teaching medical school ,own HUGE holdings in pharmacutical stocks .
Ergo,it behooves them to churn out pharm crazy baby doctors .All the Ivy league colleges especially .

So they instill in their students..... prescribe and prescribe poisons,while assuring the patient its safe .

Again you're simply making stuff up. You have any idea how many faculty is at a medical school? And your going to claim that most of them "hold stock in pharmaceutical companies"? Considering I've been academia, I'm sure much longer than you have (by your own admission below), I'm gonna call bull****! Where is your evidence and if you can't provide it please recant your false claims.

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Uh huh.
Not intererested in anything you have to say ,as you are a condescending stuck twank .You have been to me since the first time I posted in here,because you think you're better than everyone else ,because you look at flow charts on a computer screen all day.

Wow, lol. Where do you get this stuff? I look at flow charts on computer all day? No actually I was taking care of patients at the VA all day. I got off early today because we had didactics from 1-5 (which I skipped out of early around 2 :blush: )

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Good luck in life ,because you will kill people with your beliefs .
I know I wont,and I never did as a medic either .

....You know you should really talk to someone about this, probably a professional.


 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Oh and ,to get a degree in an acu college,its another FIVE YEARS,after your undergrad degree . You also need all the pre reqs a medical student does ,ans I did a one year program for paramedicine .
So I have ten years college total .Six years post graduate .
All of which are in the medical field .
An acupuncture board exam has four modules btw ,one of which is OSHA .
You would like to believe we are all hicks in the woods with no education ,but I would bet all my cats lives ,I could do exactly what you're doing now,and pass easily ,but you could never be a medic or pass an acupuncture college,both acu and herbs .

Dudette, if 10 years of college is all you can muster than your dog lost this fight.....Right, I'm sure you could waltz right into any med school in the country with your bomber knowledge--What'd ya pull on the MCAT? I'd almost pay for you take a full length NBME S1 just for the giggles.

If I give you a USMLE question bank will you show us all your score? A person that thought that there were "two types" of meningitis....hilarity to ensue.

BTW, I appreciate how you've totally ceased to defend any of the prior comments you've made about the actual subject at hand and instead just decided to launch a barrel of ad homs. Sucks when someone on the internets is spot on huh? ^_^


#23    Copasetic

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:13 AM

 Queen in the North, on 29 January 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I wonder whether they'll add it to the list of routine vaccinations for children. I guess it's likely, as the Men C vacc is a part of the vaccination schedule for children (in the UK at least, not sure about the states), and that's less common than B.

I don't know enough about the epidemiology and prevalence of serogroup B in the UK to know. I know in the states, in young children its not a common cause of bacterial meningitis (see prior post with most common ones by age group). If it did come across the pond, I suspect it would be one they gave to high school kids before entering college and to recruits joining the military.

That said, in the UK if they are using a vaccine for serogroup C in kids, then I suspect B would be scheduled as well--Especially if, as you say, B is more common there in younger age groups. I cant recall off the top of my head if the UK was one of those places on that side of the globe with 20ish per 100,000k meningiococcus incidence rates or not.


#24    Copasetic

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:16 AM

I think what would probably be more interesting and relevant to the topic at hand is how they conjugated it and with what. Also it would be interesting to see their B sacch titers a 6, 12 and 36 months out from vaccination. Anyone want a home work project and want to look into that :w00t: ? Do you lot over there across the pond have a website like www.clinicaltrials.gov you can look up clinical trial info at?

Edited by Copasetic, 30 January 2013 - 12:17 AM.


#25    Queen in the North

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:43 AM

 Copasetic, on 30 January 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

I think what would probably be more interesting and relevant to the topic at hand is how they conjugated it and with what. Also it would be interesting to see their B sacch titers a 6, 12 and 36 months out from vaccination. Anyone want a home work project and want to look into that :w00t: ? Do you lot over there across the pond have a website like www.clinicaltrials.gov you can look up clinical trial info at?
Way out of my league. :yes:

Is that website for ongoing clinical trials, info on trials where the drugs have been approved, or...?  Only asking after the whole hoo ha about companies withholding/misreporting trial data recently...

Posted Image

#26    bmk1245

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:32 PM

 Simbi Laveau, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

[...]
I know acupuncturists that gross 400K a year .
[...]
Pretty much explains ferocious anti medicine (science based) stance. And how many lives "400K a year" saved?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).

#27    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:40 PM

 bmk1245, on 30 January 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Pretty much explains ferocious anti medicine (science based) stance. And how many lives "400K a year" saved?

Ohhhh,and doctors don't !?! Pushing drugs they know that KILL AND MAIM ,while getting kickbacks from the drug companies for pushing their poisons .
Get over it already .
Acupuncture helps a lot of people .
Acus who make that much run clinics .
I've seen Kiiko Matsumoto reduce patients to tears,when they can use an arm that hasn't worked in years from an old injury .
They are helping people in China regain their eyesight with acupuncture .

Spare us your ignorant rants about medicines you know nothing about .

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#28    bmk1245

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

 Simbi Laveau, on 30 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

[...] KILL AND MAIM [...]
tee hee...

Posted Image
(Note log scale).
Yeah, right KILL.. my a**...


 Simbi Laveau, on 30 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

[...]
I've seen Kiiko Matsumoto reduce patients to tears,when they can use an arm that hasn't worked in years from an old injury .
They are helping people in China regain their eyesight with acupuncture .
[...]
You will find plenty of "testimonies" claiming they were cured by praying. So what?




 Simbi Laveau, on 30 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

[...]
Spare us your ignorant rants about medicines you know nothing about .
Yeah, I'm ignorant about many things, but you ignorant as well (as was pointed out by Copa).

PS I was wondering how much you are "getting kickbacks from the drug Alternativie companies for pushing their poison potions", huh?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).

#29    Copasetic

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:54 PM

 Simbi Laveau, on 30 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Ohhhh,and doctors don't !?! Pushing drugs they know that KILL AND MAIM ,while getting kickbacks from the drug companies for pushing their poisons .

Evidence or recant it please. Most medical doctors in the US get absolutely no financial gain or compensation from pharmaceutical companies.

 Simbi Laveau, on 30 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Acus who make that much run clinics .

I know a orthopedic surgeon who makes over a million a year. I know a neurosurgeon who makes 3, probably closer to 4 million a year. I also have a great friend I've known since I was little who pulls over a half million a year selling used cars. I've got another friend from high school who started a bunch of porn websites in the mid 90's. I don't know how much he makes a year, but the dude buys a new Maserati every year and owns 3 Ferraris. Do you see you've made a complete non sequitur here?

To keep this on topic, why don't you show us the evidence of acupuncture treating bacterial (specifically lets say meningiococcial) meningitis. Or maybe your herbs?

Edited by Copasetic, 30 January 2013 - 05:57 PM.


#30    Saru

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:19 PM

Simbi Laveau said:

I have commendations from Gullianni ,Dinkins and mayor Koch ,for bravery ,valor ,and excellence ,in the line of duty .

That is undoubtedly commendable, however a topic like this shouldn't be about appealing to one's credentials or fighting over who is the most qualified, if an argument being presented is sound then it will stand on its own strengths.

Reeling off personal achievements to maintain a position of authority in a discussion shouldn't be necessary.





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