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Father Gill's UnDebunkable Case?


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#256    psyche101

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:49 AM

View Postbison, on 08 February 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Other possible explanations? To be sure! It's their relative probability, based on our best knowledge, that appears to be of the essence.

I do not believe that for one second. You have made your mind up already, as is illustrated in the last line of this very post. It is easier to make a short wormhole than a larger one, and that being the case, if we ever could make a wormhole, then it seem likely we woud start with simpler solutions.

View Postbison, on 08 February 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Noting the high improbability of the technological explanations, other than an ET space craft, it seems to boil down to this, or the witnesses were lying.

It does not boil down to that at all. Serious questions have been raised about the practicality of ET as an answer, but like the bodies you ETH'ers claim to despise, you do exactly the same thing, and consider alternate explanations an insult you your "undebunkable" case. Hell, that title say's more than enough!
You are offering Warp Hypothesis as an answer!
The main problem is that only exotic explanations have been considered at all. I guess it is in the ETH bloodline. The Prosaic has been dismissed, but on personal grounds, not one person has pointed out why it is impossible. If ET was indeed so much as a viable option here, then someone should be able to answer the question :

"What in Father Gill's Description can only be described as ET".

Until that can be answered, you are qualifying guesses with guesses, and pompously judging yourself to have found the answer.

View Postbison, on 08 February 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Science seems to mistrust the eyewitness reports of unsanctioned observers from among the general public.

Not science, just results - actual proof. Science is a pursuit of knowledge, not the container of it.

The Innocence Project under the Global Griffith University has taken a sample of cases including Death Row candidates that were convicted by eyewitness testimony. Of these cases, 75% were overturned by DNA evidence. I am not sure how that is not seen as an alarming indicator that eyewitness testimony requires much more supportive evidence to be considered accurate. Some people had spent up to ten years in death row as a result of faulty testimony, I shudder to think how many have perished for the same.
It's all at the Griffith IP Website if you care to look.

They are real numbers, and dealing with real lives. Considering the results to date, it seems more than foolish to accept any testimony as entirely faultless.

View Postbison, on 08 February 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

It appears that meteorites were kept out of the scientific canon for some time, because it seemed more likely that the witnesses made it all up, than that rocks fell from the sky.

Same thing the Cryptozoologists say about the Gorilla. Such an arrogant stance, the above of course is not true at all, that is the view of Western Science only, ancient Greece recognised rocks as coming form the sky, and in fact worshiped them because of just that. Visitors to the temple of Apollo at Delphi, for example, reported that a stone, reputed to have fallen from the sky, was on display there and each day was anointed by the resident priests.

So the ancient Greeks knew that stones could, and did, fall from the sky. They used observation, common sense and the genuine power of reason to establish this. Rocks and stones that fell to the ground were not really falling stars they reasoned, because the celestial population of stars remained the same.

Aristotle, however, the great Greek philosopher, was one who thought he had debunked this concept. He thought that rocks could not fall from the sky because the heavens were perfect and could not possibly have loose pieces floating around to fall to Earth. Aristotle was forced to change his position somewhat after a meteorite fell at Thrace near Aegospotami. He reasoned that strong winds had lifted an earth rock into the sky, then dropped it. Other learned men of the time favoured an alternate theory. They held that meteorites somehow formed in the sky during violent thunderstorms, suggesting that particles inside the clouds consolidated because of the heat during a lighting flash. For this reason the rocks were sometimes referred to as thunderstones. Exotic explanations as a springboard back to an answer Greeks already had. This is where the refraction hypothesis again should be considered as opposed to immediately dismissed without reasoning.
Despite the varying views, a consensus was somehow arrived at. Being a temporary phenomenon, it was agreed, shooting stars had to be something within the atmosphere. These objects were therefore named Meteors meaning 'things in the air'. The idea that stones can fall out of the sky was also denounced by the  Académie Française des Sciences, Europe's leading rational authority as an unscientific absurdity. This was a mindset that continued to propagate, and that is why we do not have hardly any meteorites that predate 1790.
But you lot do not see yourselves like the Académie, do you? But look at your last sentence in this post. You have the answer, whilst I admit to still guessing.
But even they had to succumb to Physical Evidence. It was not some fringe developer that unraveled the mystery, far from it, on the night of the 26th of April 1803 the people of L'Aigle were woken by the thunderous noise of more than 2000 rocks falling from the sky. This undeniable display of meteorites also woke up the Académie Française who were compelled to take notice. They appointed a commission to investigate the event, the result of which was finally a reluctant admission that stones could indeed fall from the sky. And thusly Western Science was brought up to speed. Many Ancient hypotheses managed to see the light of day, once one was allowed to consider such without the help of God, such as is the case here. If we are ever allowed to consider the case as not having ET as a component, who knows, maybe an answer might even be obtainable.

I see such ambiguous comments as purposefully trying to undermine science, and it's valuable results. I see such often from the ETH side of the fence. I do not feel such tactics are honorable. Such ambiguous prose however, does have a remarkable impact in the ignorant.

View Postbison, on 08 February 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

I wonder what our descendants will say about this sort of dismissal of extraterrestrial craft, having the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. hmm.

In November of 1492, a 280-pound meteorite fell in a wheat field near the village of Ensisheim, France. A young boy witnessed it and led the townspeople to a three-foot deep crater where it lay. The people thought the object to be of supernatural origin.

Indeed, however, I see it being a hallmark of the credulous. Those who could not think beyond ET. As we develop, and make contact, I expect many mirthful realisations as the current ETH comes undone. There are people with qualifications that actually are beneficial to such studies, and whom have a true insight that excludes the pop culture mindset propagated by 1950's novelists. They are pointing the way this will unfold, not the Frank Kimbler's of the world. I would pay money to time travel to see the current ETH in antiquity. I think it would be a wonderful and hearty belly laugh.

Good to know you have this one answered though, my arrogant approach has only resulted in many options. Which I completely believe the UFO phenomena to be, a number of things, and not just one explain all answer for every recorded event in antiquity.

Edited by psyche101, 11 February 2013 - 01:14 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#257    quillius

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:46 PM

hello all (especially 1963 and Psyche, to whom I owe a response.)

Apologies for my absence, its been a hectic few weeks for me and I havent been able to post or research at all.

I would stilll very much like to continue with this case to see where it may lead us.

I assume still no joy with the tapes 1963?


#258    psyche101

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:53 PM

View Postquillius, on 27 February 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

hello all (especially 1963 and Psyche, to whom I owe a response.)

Apologies for my absence, its been a hectic few weeks for me and I havent been able to post or research at all.

I would stilll very much like to continue with this case to see where it may lead us.

I assume still no joy with the tapes 1963?

You are off the hook if you wish mate. I think my point is well made, This is most certainly not concrete evidence we are being visited, it is not even evidence of ET, it is another leap of faith taken and arrogantly expressed as iron clad when it is not. Father Gill's case offers more questions, not any answers. Whilst I favour a refraction hypothesis out of candidates so far submitted, it is clear that hypothesis (which it actually is as opposed the the ET claim being based on actual observations and local conditions) will not be given the time of day by anyone but your good self, proving yourself far superior to all of your peers. My only wish is that silly claims like this demonstrate the tin foil hat phenomena, and that more people are inspired by your methods of investigation and start to consider the subject as more than simple entertainment. At the end of the day, that is how I see this particular thread, created for entertainment and to taunt critical thinkers. Just the title is arrogant enough, and demonstrates the mindset of the faithful. The case itself fascinating, intensely interesting, but it does not prove ET has made it here. It is a shame to see such an intriguing case wasted solely on ET to be frank. Considering the examples of Vallee's flying saucer with propellors  and the 1896 airship, there is more to scratch one's head about then that which 1950's Sci Fi offers us.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#259    quillius

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:38 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 27 February 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

You are off the hook if you wish mate. I think my point is well made, This is most certainly not concrete evidence we are being visited, it is not even evidence of ET, it is another leap of faith taken and arrogantly expressed as iron clad when it is not. Father Gill's case offers more questions, not any answers. Whilst I favour a refraction hypothesis out of candidates so far submitted, it is clear that hypothesis (which it actually is as opposed the the ET claim being based on actual observations and local conditions) will not be given the time of day by anyone but your good self, proving yourself far superior to all of your peers. My only wish is that silly claims like this demonstrate the tin foil hat phenomena, and that more people are inspired by your methods of investigation and start to consider the subject as more than simple entertainment. At the end of the day, that is how I see this particular thread, created for entertainment and to taunt critical thinkers. Just the title is arrogant enough, and demonstrates the mindset of the faithful. The case itself fascinating, intensely interesting, but it does not prove ET has made it here. It is a shame to see such an intriguing case wasted solely on ET to be frank. Considering the examples of Vallee's flying saucer with propellors  and the 1896 airship, there is more to scratch one's head about then that which 1950's Sci Fi offers us.

I think maybe its best not to continue with this thread as there is some bad feeling and I personally respect and enjoy conversing with both 1963 and yourself.

As a parting shot though have a think about this question:

'what would you give more weight to as an indication of ET  ' appearance or performance'?


#260    psyche101

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:22 PM

View Postquillius, on 28 February 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

As a parting shot though have a think about this question:

'what would you give more weight to as an indication of ET  ' appearance or performance'?


Considering the D-Dalus that I mentioned in this link LINK, and the exposure it has had, appearance would be a better indicator of what a craft is capable of, and what it's design paramaters permit. Again, Vallee's flaying saucer with propellors comes to mind. He was convinced that he had a solid case for ET until that detail popped up.

Edited by Saru, 02 March 2013 - 12:31 PM.
Removed derrogatory personal remark

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#261    DONTEATUS

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:43 PM

You gotta Love a propellors kinda-guy ! Nothing Says FTL than a Blade smashing thru our thick air  Like An E.T design Chopper! Anyone for another Blackhawk Down?

This is a Work in Progress!

#262    1963

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:45 PM

View Postquillius, on 27 February 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

hello all (especially 1963 and Psyche, to whom I owe a response.)

Apologies for my absence, its been a hectic few weeks for me and I havent been able to post or research at all.

I would stilll very much like to continue with this case to see where it may lead us.

I assume still no joy with the tapes 1963?

View Postquillius, on 27 February 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

hello all (especially 1963 and Psyche, to whom I owe a response.)

Apologies for my absence, its been a hectic few weeks for me and I havent been able to post or research at all.

I would stilll very much like to continue with this case to see where it may lead us.

I assume still no joy with the tapes 1963?

Hi Quillius, I too am no stranger to a hectic way of life and can well understand your predicament!
Anyway my friend...you are correct in your assumptions about the tapes!...getting hold of those little blighters is like trying to crack the euromillions!...the closest that I have got is get a photograph of their probable location... :rolleyes: ...

Posted Image


this is the evidence library at CUFOS-Michigan , and I have emailed a request for information to the big cheese there  'Michael Swords', a couple of weeks ago, but as of yet...nothing!!
...but as I have a couple of 'top-lads' SD and Karl 12 on the case,...I haven't given up yet! :yes:

But on a more positive note....I have been trying to locate any of the other surviving witnesses [who's account of the incidents that we have not heard yet...such as Steven Moi etc] ...and whilst I was finding out that Reverend David Durie had sadly passed away ,[the man whom received the two original letters from Father Gill]...I managed to find his son, the Reverend Dr. Mark Durie, who is himself   scholar and vicar of St Mary's Anglican Church in Caulfield, Victoria, Australia.,...and emailed the guy and asked if there was any chance that he could add anything that he knew [through his father] about the events?[if he didn't mind, that is!]
And to the man's credit, he as so far given me a couple of replies!....this is the first one....





Hello Alex,

Add sender to Contact

s





I am happy to respond. My father David also saw the flying object but it did not approach the place where he was. He had been a navigator with the RAAF during the war and it was clear to him from the speed and ovement of the object that it was not man-made. My father has passed away but I can check whether he referred to it in his autobiography. My mother is still alive and may have seen the object in the sky over  Dogura as well. I shall ask her. Mark


Sent from my iPhone


...and then the second email...


My mother also saw the object, together with my Father and students at St Aidan's College.
It was a light in the distance, moving with great speed and suddenly stopping and hovering.
My Father commented that no man-made flying object could move and stop in that way and at that speed.
This sighting occurred at the time when Father Gill made his report.

Mark



....Sounds like a promising start to me!...I'll get back to you when I learn more . :tu:


Cheers Buddy.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
...I found the Smoking Gun at last!!!!!!!!.....https://www.youtube....h?v=fGKOcuANNQo

#263    psyche101

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:46 PM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 28 February 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

You gotta Love a propellors kinda-guy ! Nothing Says FTL than a Blade smashing thru our thick air  Like An E.T design Chopper! Anyone for another Blackhawk Down?


OK, I am ready to go......................................

Posted Image



Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#264    DONTEATUS

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 03:38 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 28 February 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

OK, I am ready to go......................................

Posted Image

Good Bye Yellow Brick Road , E.T done come and Gone ! BUt they did Leave us a Great Piano player !

This is a Work in Progress!

#265    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:03 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 27 February 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

You are off the hook if you wish mate. I think my point is well made, This is most certainly not concrete evidence we are being visited, it is not even evidence of ET, it is another leap of faith taken and arrogantly expressed as iron clad when it is not. Father Gill's case offers more questions, not any answers. Whilst I favour a refraction hypothesis out of candidates so far submitted, it is clear that hypothesis (which it actually is as opposed the the ET claim being based on actual observations and local conditions) will not be given the time of day by anyone but your good self, proving yourself far superior to all of your peers.
You mean far superior to all these loons who just keep banging on about ET? :P

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#266    psyche101

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:18 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 01 March 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

You mean far superior to all these loons who just keep banging on about ET? :P

I was trying for more diplomacy than that where the OP is concerned, but hey, there you go, it's blunt now.

But I do think it might be more constructive to try and consider why the craft might look like it does, rather than try to consider why ET would have a craft like that. That would be a different conversation to Father Gill's recollection I would think.

Edited by psyche101, 01 March 2013 - 08:18 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#267    DONTEATUS

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 02:45 AM

Heres a Great quote by Mark Boslough a Sandia National Lab physicist " When somebody is making a claim that something extraordinary happened,somthing out of the ordinary and with a very low probability,and they have ambiguous evidence,then the default is that it didnt Happen " :tu:
Dang those pesky brainiacs !

This is a Work in Progress!

#268    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:28 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 02 March 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

Heres a Great quote by Mark Boslough a Sandia National Lab physicist " When somebody is making a claim that something extraordinary happened,somthing out of the ordinary and with a very low probability,and they have ambiguous evidence,then the default is that it didnt Happen " :tu:
Dang those pesky brainiacs !
Then what do you consider that it probably was?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:


#269    DONTEATUS

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:34 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 02 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Then what do you consider that it probably was?
Just remember the key words from Father Gill`s  "In my Book "

This is a Work in Progress!

#270    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:09 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 03 March 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Just remember the key words from Father Gill`s  "In my Book "
Care to elaborate further?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:





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