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Capitalism is a Cult


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#121    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:01 PM

View PostYamato, on 24 January 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Our trusted future unknown bureaucrats in their marble halls are greedy too.  This rainbow universe of morally superior masters raining down their morality on the rest of us will never become reality because power corrupts.  One doesn't need money to be greedy.   Money is just a medium to get things.  So long as there's a world with things in it, there will be greed.   We need to defend the individual, not the bureau.
Without it we are all feudal surfs at the mercy of people who can buy influence and impose it with their bought armies. The problem is that the strongest power in the world has been hijacked by those feudal masters. Removing government is not the answer - choosing better government is.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#122    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostYamato, on 24 January 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

If you can prove it, please prosecute it.  Fraud is illegal.  And I would much rather have free and transparent markets than backroom deals cut by bureaucrats picking the winners and losers.
Who would prosecute financial fraud if we had no regulators ??

Fantasy lala land of the perfect capitalist state. Taliban by another name.

Br Cornelius

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#123    Yamato

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:07 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 January 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Who would prosecute financial fraud if we had no regulators ??

Fantasy lala land of the perfect capitalist state. Taliban by another name.

Br Cornelius
Who said no regulations?  Will you put that myth down already?    You're not interested in honest debate, you're interested in a pile of straw you keep in the barn.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#124    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

View PostYamato, on 24 January 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Who said no regulations?  Will you put that myth down already? You're not interested in honest debate, you're interested in a pile of straw you keep in the barn.
Who would regulate when you had diminished the Governments of the world to mere lap dogs of the markets.
Follow your own logic to its conclusion.

You are against Government but expect some body to regulate the markets - hey presto, as if by magic you have created Government :clap:

A regulator has to be bigger and stronger than the thing it attempts to regulate, you cannot have a fair and strong market without a fairer and stronger government.

You really haven't grasped the internal logic of your own position have you. If your not prepared to step into the real world, then you shouldn't argue about real things.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 24 January 2013 - 08:17 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#125    Yamato

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:22 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 January 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Who would regulate when you had diminished the Governments of the world to mere lap dogs of the markets.
Follow your own logic to its conclusion.

You are against Government but expect some body to regulate the markets - hey presto, as if by magic you have created Government :clap:

A regulator has to be bigger and stronger than the thing it attempts to regulate, you cannot have a fair and strong market without a fairer and stronger government.

You really haven't grasped the internal logic of your own position have you.


Br Cornelius
Nobody said "mere lap dogs to the markets".  Will you put that mythology to bed?   I'm not "against government".   I love the US government and I'm trying to save the damned thing from itself.  The federal government has excellent purpose for existing, and it is justly empowered to enforce contracts and prosecute fraud.

If everything you do in your life is voluntary, then you will pay the price proportional to your own misdeeds.  That is the way to maintain a just society.   It's called personal responsibility; not bureaucratic irresponsibility.    Not this strange desire to make everyone else pay for greedy peoples' appetites, fraud, and economic malfeasance.  The more money government spends, the more inflation hurts the poor.  I believe that prices should be made more affordable, not less.   And this insane gang of irresponsible criminals we have ruling over us today need to meet their demise.  We have to win the battle of hearts and minds in the street and this website is a quick and easy place to start.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#126    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:28 PM

I think you need to grasp that retreating into fantasy solutions, such as a return to some imagined perfect capitalist state, is just a distraction which diverts us away from facing the real issues ofg making the only world that we have and which is possible work for a change.

You will never hear me advocating socialism as a solution to our problems because it represents another fantasy perfect imagined state.

The world we live in is the world as it is - it can be made better or it can be made worse. Radical revolutionary overturns (of any hug) have consistently shown themselves to take us to that worse state. I am for what works and against ideological fantasies.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#127    Yamato

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 January 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

I think you need to grasp that retreating into fantasy solutions, such as a return to some imagined perfect capitalist state, is just a distraction which diverts us away from facing the real issues ofg making the only world that we have and which is possible work for a change.

You will never hear me advocating socialism as a solution to our problems because it represents another fantasy perfect imagined state.

The world we live in is the world as it is - it can be made better or it can be made worse. Radical revolutionary overturns (of any hug) have consistently shown themselves to take us to that worse state. I am for what works and against ideological fantasies.

Br Cornelius
Nothing is perfect, the free markets are brutal, nearly all start up businesses will fail, but the market metes out both benefits and punishments to the proportion of our actions.   Nobody is denying government's role in this.

When I talk about theory, you talk about practice.  When I talk about practice, you talk about theory.   That's the pattern I see in every debate you get into about this subject.   There is no pure capitalism or socialism in practice.

Freedom is vastly superior to tyranny.  If you can't even agree to that, if you can't repeat that statement and actually agree with it, then you will put the world in chains and we'll all be slaves.  I look at world history and I do not trust the mass murder and mass hypocrisy of the bureau to solve society's problems, no matter what form of government we may want to have a protracted discussion about.  

Let the People decide, Br.  Have some faith in the goodness of humanity.
http://www.metrolyri...yrics-rush.html

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#128    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:50 PM

View PostYamato, on 24 January 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

Nothing is perfect, the free markets are brutal, nearly all start up businesses will fail, but the market metes out both benefits and punishments to the proportion of our actions.   Nobody is denying government's role in this.

When I talk about theory, you talk about practice.  When I talk about practice, you talk about theory.   That's the pattern I see in every debate you get into about this subject.   There is no pure capitalism or socialism in practice.

Freedom is vastly superior to tyranny.  If you can't even agree to that, if you can't repeat that statement and actually agree with it, then you will put the world in chains and we'll all be slaves.  I look at world history and I do not trust the mass murder and mass hypocrisy of the bureau to solve society's problems, no matter what form of government we may want to have a protracted discussion about.  

Let the People decide, Br.  Have some faith in the goodness of humanity.
http://www.metrolyri...yrics-rush.html
I don't accept your particular definition of Freedom. I think all of your conceptual frames of reference are abstractions which bare no relationship to the reality in which people live. That doesn't make me an advocate of tyranny just a aware of the reality of the human condition.
I do not accept that there has ever been a state of Freedom that humans have ever lived in - we are always constrained by our society and we always have been.
Making that society the best possible state for the most diverse group of people is what I aim for - warts and all, compromises and all.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#129    AsteroidX

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:50 PM

Any forceful change of government would be a difficult process. Is the government tyrannical enough to call for such a change ? You would certainbly see a change a world currency away from the dollar. Itleast for the near future. Im not afraid of that.


#130    Yamato

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 January 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

I don't accept your particular definition of Freedom. I think all of your conceptual frames of reference are abstractions which bare no relationship to the reality in which people live. That doesn't make me an advocate of tyranny just a aware of the reality of the human condition.
I do not accept that there has ever been a state of Freedom that humans have ever lived in - we are always constrained by our society and we always have been.
Making that society the best possible state for the most diverse group of people is what I aim for - warts and all, compromises and all.

Br Cornelius
Well then you don't accept the dictionary because I never get a definition of a layman's vocabulary word without it.

We can have as many theoretical or practical discussions about reality and society as we like, but it's like TJ said, I would rather err on the side of too much liberty than not enough of it.   The eternal struggle between liberty and tyranny transcends left and right ideology, partisan politics, styles of government, and theories of economics.



"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#131    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:10 PM

I am inclined to agree with the general analysis that the USA is teetering on the precipice of becoming a totalitarian state. I have always  believed that Alan Greenspan was to intelligent not to realise the inevitable end point of his fiscal policy, and therefore I am inclined to believe it was intentional. I am also inclined to believe that this follows nicely along with the "Shock Doctrine" analysis of economic history. That is, you create a crisis (very profitable crisis if you are ahead of the crest) and then manipulate the markets to make a killing on the way down - which is exactly what happened. The banks have collateralize almost all real assets in the world which represents a form of indentured slavery by another name. The debt can never be paid off but the payments will be extracted into an infinite future.
In identifying the players is where I take issue. The real orchestrator's of all this were people like the Bushes - all the way back to pre-WW2 times. They were the banking interests which started the ball rolling and they were the people who smuggled in all of the post war Nazi's into multiple positions of authority - especially into the secret government of the USA - the CIA. This is a corporate fascistic right wing coup which has been slowly unfurling for the last 100yr or so . The same interests have financed the Tea Party which has encouraged a distrust of Government in favour of corporate interests and has allowed the agenda to take hold and will make the transition into corporate financed dictatorship almost unnoticed.

Maybe you do need your guns to defend yourself against the scenario that played out in Nazi Germany. Maybe you should be very worried about your Freedom. But please understand where the threat really comes from - it will not be a socialist hell you experience, more a corporatist hell.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#132    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:14 PM

View PostYamato, on 24 January 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

If the free market regulated our economy, these "too big to fail" monstrosities who abused peoples' money would be bankrupt.   But the banking system gets the big cheese and it's the highest flying stock sector on the market today.  For shame, socialists.  For shame. Yeah they "need government regulation" like I need an endless supply of credit to finance my special interests too.
You make a good point but perhaps carry it too far.  All regulation is an invitation to corruption by the regulators, from the bribe to the cop or the building inspector to the promise of a nice job in a few years to the bank auditor.

Is the solution no regulation?  Think about that.


#133    Yamato

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 January 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Maybe you do need your guns to defend yourself against the scenario that played out in Nazi Germany. Maybe you should be very worried about your Freedom. But please understand where the threat really comes from - it will not be a socialist hell you experience, more a corporatist hell.

Br Cornelius
I agree, it won't be Socialist or Capitalist, but rather Statist-Corporatist.  Calling it Fascist wouldn't be too far from accurate.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#134    Yamato

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:21 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 January 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

You make a good point but perhaps carry it too far.  All regulation is an invitation to corruption by the regulators, from the bribe to the cop or the building inspector to the promise of a nice job in a few years to the bank auditor.

Is the solution no regulation?  Think about that.
We can't throw out good regulations like bankruptcy law and then cite a lack of regulations as the problem.   I would bring back the most powerful regulations the economy has ever known.  It's the government that's subverting the regulations that really matter.  There must be consequences for our misdeeds.  There must be a price to pay for failure and a reward for success or we will lose every edge we ever enjoyed.   The marketplace is global now, and we can't run away from competition no matter how bad some of us want to.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#135    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:21 PM

My other point is - there is nothing inevitable about this outcome - in terms of Government. Its just your bad luck that a group of fascists sympathizers embedded themselves into "your" Government.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson




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