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Capitalism is a Cult


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#151    acidhead

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:57 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 27 January 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

I don't think calling someone a "socialist" has quite the rhetorical effect as calling someone a "fascist," but it is nevertheless an inaccurate description and therefore diminishes the credibility of the speaker.

(Does anyone understand what I just said: my English is stumbling).

I understand your english..... I think.....

Just Curious....

What's your nationality and what is so good about socialist Vietnam?

Edited by acidhead, 27 January 2013 - 06:59 AM.

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#152    AsteroidX

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:03 AM

When we in America refer to Obama as a socialist it certainly has a reference to his agenda.

Perhaps it has been slanged from what you might you consider socialism but nontheless thats what we refer to it as as there is no known term except Consumerist to explain our current form of Government. I believe it is being used more in a search for an accurate description of what our Government is turning into as we shred the Constitution. Alot of people dont care what its called and are more invested into preserving the Constitution then what term we use to describe the process by which its being eroded.


#153    acidhead

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:11 AM

Does Obama oppose the problem or is part of it?

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#154    AsteroidX

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:12 AM

Depends who you ask. Im not certain its legal to speak out against our Government anymore. :whistle:


#155    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:16 AM

View Postacidhead, on 27 January 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

What's your nationality and what is so good about socialist Vietnam?
How nice!  Your question gives me a chance to preach socialism.

I'm Vietnamese although I went to college in the States and have a job that sends me there quite often.

Describing Vietnam as "socialist" is not quite what most Americans think, as it is a mixed economy with active markets.  Still most major enterprises are either state-owned or the state has a large interest.

Once the "New Thinking" (that opened up the economy quite a bit) went into force a decade or so ago the economy took off and everyone's standard of living has really, noticeably, improved.  Now of course similar things have happened in much more capitalist countries (S. Korea for example).  What works I think is a government with the power and will to manage details like money and interest and banks and so on, to make plans and see to it that private (or public, for that matter) enterprises operate within those plans, to have good law enforcement and good schools and good health care and lots of spending on infrastructure.


#156    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:22 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 27 January 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

When we in America refer to Obama as a socialist it certainly has a reference to his agenda.
If he were a real socialist, we would see industries being nationalized.


#157    acidhead

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:26 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 27 January 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

How nice!  Your question gives me a chance to preach socialism.

I'm Vietnamese although I went to college in the States and have a job that sends me there quite often.

Describing Vietnam as "socialist" is not quite what most Americans think, as it is a mixed economy with active markets.  Still most major enterprises are either state-owned or the state has a large interest.

Once the "New Thinking" (that opened up the economy quite a bit) went into force a decade or so ago the economy took off and everyone's standard of living has really, noticeably, improved.  Now of course similar things have happened in much more capitalist countries (S. Korea for example).  What works I think is a government with the power and will to manage details like money and interest and banks and so on, to make plans and see to it that private (or public, for that matter) enterprises operate within those plans, to have good law enforcement and good schools and good health care and lots of spending on infrastructure.

Sounds like a paradise... for now.

It works because foreign investment keeps the illusion continuing.

You should pay close attention to the American dollar.  It is what keeps the illusion of Vietnam strong.

Never forget the 50 000 americans who died for that nation.

What happens in America directly will affect Vietnam.

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#158    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:42 AM

Foreign investment helps, and the government needs to be careful to reign in the bureaucrats so that foreigners want to come here.  Still, I think this is a fairly minor part of the equation, as Vietnam's exports remain mainly agricultural.

The Vietnamese Dong is managed, and seems (although I am not privy to these decisions) to be slowly decreased in value (it has gone from about 12,000 to the dollar to now 20,000 to the dollar over the last decade, with the a drop typically happening unannounced about once a year).  This is slow enough the people don't stash away dollars any more -- Dong in the bank earns a better return.

I would not describe what is going on as an illusion.  Five percent or better growth year in and year out.  People notice.

I fear the Americans who died here died in vain.  Nowadays America is viewed in friendly terms, and unofficially as a possible counterpoint to Chinese hegemony, and Americans as people are universally welcomed, but the American war was a huge mistake.  I think the North would eventually have prevailed regardless, but the American intervention kinda made it inevitable, and maybe a lot more bloody than necessary.  The intervention converted what had been a civil war into a war of liberation with the North seen by most as defending the motherland.   Most Vietnamese did not see the war as between Communists and Capitalists, but as between Vietnamese and foreigners.  They also did not see the Southern government as being any more freedom oriented than the northern government, and saw it as hugely more corrupt.

What happens in America influences Vietnam, to be sure; what happens everywhere nowadays influences what happens everywhere else.  It is only one small planet.


#159    AsteroidX

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:58 AM

Quote

If he were a real socialist, we would see industries being nationalized.

1. Obamacare


#160    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:05 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 27 January 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

1. Obamacare
I have of course heard of this, but I don't see where it is nationalization.  Calling it nationalization doesn't make it nationalization.  Is the government going to take over the health insurance companies and so on?


#161    AsteroidX

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:09 AM

Quote

I have of course heard of this, but I don't see where it is nationalization.  Calling it nationalization doesn't make it nationalization.  Is the government going to take over the health insurance companies and so on?

National Insurance is among it yes as well as continued private insurance. In the fine print however is a long train of abuses and taxes which we are only now starting to learn about. The smart bugger was smart enough to not begin the Obamacare programs for several years after it was ratified. Sort of like a smokescreen for the abuses written in it.

When he said it was not a tax he lied. It is a tax and has taxation of specific groups of individuals written directly into it.

The kicker is if you dont participate you are fined so yes it is Nationalized (not yet but soon)

Edited by AsteroidX, 27 January 2013 - 08:10 AM.


#162    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:21 AM

I think America's problem with health care is that it costs way too much.  I had to go to an emergency room once because of a case of food poisoning and I had a speech to deliver in a couple hours, and the bill for nothing more than an intervenous re-hydration came to $800.  Please!

I have to take blood pressure medicines, a statin, a thyroid pill, and vitamin D.  I have learned the hard way to not try to buy them in the States.  All I do here is go to the pharmacist and tell them what I want and sixty days supply costs me a few dollars.  There I have to have a prescription first and then it costs hundreds of dollars.  There are even treatments that you can't have in the States but are readily available here.  They cured my chronic hepatitis with a drug that is not available in the States.

In Vietnam you are on your own with health bills; the state provides no help.  Still, people can afford it (no doubt there are subsidies helping keep costs down).  There is insurance but few buy it.

I don't doubt that American hospitals are better equipped, and probably American doctors better trained, but it doesn't appear from the statistics that American health care provides much better results.


#163    AsteroidX

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:43 AM

And those are the reasons why Obamacare is not good for us because it does not fix any of the problems you say in Vietnam dont exist. Dont get me wrong are Health Care is horrid and quickly becoming something for the ultra wealthy and to a degree the ultra poor. Those in between are left few choices anymore. Food or Healthcare.....

Now for some Obamacare will benefit them. For others they will be the ones paying for it by increased fees for certain items. They also want the young healthy population that does not use health care to carry a large burden for an aged population that is used to the comfort of cheap insurance which are no longer feasible economically. This same young population that is perpetually unemployed or underemployed with high college degrees working minimum wage jobs because our jobs have been outsourced to foreign countries.

Then the American pride kicks in and I dont anymore to consider it a greivance and an illegal tax on a minority of people.


#164    Br Cornelius

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:52 AM

View PostUncle Sam, on 26 January 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Project Paperclip brought lots of Nazi scientists over here not S.S. Soldiers or Nazi Soldiers or Nazi Politicians. Most scientists today go along with their government to receive funding for their projects. Not all scientists are good or moral people, there are bad scientists in this world. The government limits what scientists can do and what they are allowed to research. Nazi government gave less restriction to the scientists if they test on Jewish or Undesirable Subjects during World War II. Sadly some of the best contributing factors to science was brought forth through immoral means. In some sense, that isn't going to change as long as there is governments who are arch-enemies of each other or governments much like the Nazi government at the time. Government is the main contributing factor in a lot what scientists research at the time. If you really must know, some of those scientists were doing those research because it was either that or death of a family member or themselves. Must I go in-depth in explaining everything to everyone these days? The ignorance people show is astounding and it just shows our race is getting dumber by the day, we really need to buckle down and stop being so damn judging all the time. I'm not a Nazi Sympathizer, I am more of a realist who tries to understand the choices people make in the past and in my life time.
The scientific side of operation paperclip is the bit that most people know about, but it is only half of the story.
Operation paperclip also brought in many Gestapo officers into the American secret service. Its easy to verify this as true.

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#165    Yamato

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:53 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 27 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I think America's problem with health care is that it costs way too much.  I had to go to an emergency room once because of a case of food poisoning and I had a speech to deliver in a couple hours, and the bill for nothing more than an intervenous re-hydration came to $800.  Please!
A short ambulance ride to the ER, a quick in and out of the hospital after a few rudimentary tests and the price tag exceeded $10,000.   Not bad for less than an hour's work.

People don't make the association of what causes prices to come down for common products they use every day to their health care.  They just hear a politician talk a bunch of flowery sugar-coated crap during campaign season and then vote for spending other peoples' $$ on that.  That doesn't bring costs down, it just drives them ever higher.   People think that costs are simply a matter of point-of-sale costs for the consumer of those health services which has nothing to do with it.  The cost problem is what the industry is billing the insurance companies, which thanks to government subsidies, is always the maximum they can charge.

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