Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Capitalism is a Cult


  • Please log in to reply
186 replies to this topic

#46    preacherman76

preacherman76

    Humble Servent

  • Member
  • 10,827 posts
  • Joined:16 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Parts Unknown

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

Like every type of economy, capitalism eventualy becomes corupted by the very people put in place to protect it, and make sure the playing field is level. And again like every other economic theory, the people as a whole must remain vigilant. When the Glass Steagall act was thrown out the window, that should have been a clear sign that full coruption was just around the corner. Instead of rising to stop it, we remained sleeping.

People who think collectivly will always hate capitalism, even without coruption. To me, this is why I strongly back individualism. Collective thinking sooner or later creates a large group of people who think you owe them a living.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#47    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:14 AM

View Postpreacherman76, on 23 January 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Like every type of economy, capitalism eventualy becomes corupted by the very people put in place to protect it, and make sure the playing field is level. And again like every other economic theory, the people as a whole must remain vigilant. When the Glass Steagall act was thrown out the window, that should have been a clear sign that full coruption was just around the corner. Instead of rising to stop it, we remained sleeping.

People who think collectivly will always hate capitalism, even without coruption. To me, this is why I strongly back individualism. Collective thinking sooner or later creates a large group of people who think you owe them a living.
Markets have their place when they are in line with social needs. There is nothing automatic about this happening. What happens frequently is collective need is manipulated to conform with the output of corportations. This is what happens when corporations become to powerful.
This why we can never do without a Government.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 23 January 2013 - 11:38 AM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#48    preacherman76

preacherman76

    Humble Servent

  • Member
  • 10,827 posts
  • Joined:16 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Parts Unknown

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:23 AM

Our government enables these corperations.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#49    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,445 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:23 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 January 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Which misses the point entirely - good is not just about freedom for the individual to make certain choices. The "Good" of society is a very complex concept which moves far beyond basic concepts of freedom. Always take a concept to its logical conclusion, if freedom is all there is then I am free to come to your house and shoot you. What possible logical problem could there be in that if all that existance is is freedom to make choices ?

Br Cornelius
No you're not free to do that because that is violating my freedom.   So you're not even getting the basic concepts of freedom right.  

In a free market, you're free to buy something that someone else is free to sell.   You arrive at a mutually amicable price to trade at.   This kind of barter can be applied to everything, not just prices and goods, but time and any other resource.    It's voluntarily sharing resources with others, not expecting magic cookie cutter answers from a federal department of bureaucrats who have no idea who you are.  It's how you might share your grill with your neighbor to use his air tools to fix your car.   How you carpool the neighbors' kids on your street to save gas money or work out a routine you can live better with.   It's voluntarily running your life (without the force control a socialist needs) and there's a million examples of this.   Deliberately stretching freedom to its ridiculous nth degree so to miss the pleasant reality of free markets (at least Americans still enjoy) is what's missing the point.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#50    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,646 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

+1

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#51    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostYamato, on 23 January 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

No you're not free to do that because that is violating my freedom.   So you're not even getting the basic concepts of freedom right.  

In a free market, you're free to buy something that someone else is free to sell.   You arrive at a mutually amicable price to trade at.   This kind of barter can be applied to everything, not just prices and goods, but time and any other resource. It's voluntarily sharing resources with others, not expecting magic cookie cutter answers from a federal department of bureaucrats who have no idea who you are.  It's how you might share your grill with your neighbor to use his air tools to fix your car.   How you carpool the neighbors' kids on your street to save gas money or work out a routine you can live better with.   It's voluntarily running your life (without the force control a socialist needs) and there's a million examples of this.   Deliberately stretching freedom to its ridiculous nth degree so to miss the pleasant reality of free markets (at least Americans still enjoy) is what's missing the point.
many apparently free choices have consequences for others. Take the freedom to burn fossil fuels - these have consequences for climate which effects others freedoms and then there is the need to secure supply which creates conflicts. Few choices are free from a moral and ethical dimension - and this is where incentives and regulation of markets comes in.
I used that example as a concrete one which highlights the moral and ethical dimension of all choices - in most situations the consequences and victims are not so obvious as my shooting example, but they exist all the same.

Simple formulas, such as capitalism, seldom capture the real complexity of a situation and so are inadequate models on which to base social organisation.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 23 January 2013 - 11:45 AM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#52    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,445 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:57 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 January 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

many apparently free choices have consequences for others. Take the freedom to burn fossil fuels - these have consequences for climate which effects others freedoms and then there is the need to secure supply which creates conflicts. Few choices are free from a moral and ethical dimension - and this is where incentives and regulation of markets comes in.
I used that example as a concrete one which highlights the moral and ethical dimension of all choices - in most situations the consequences and victims are not so obvious as my shooting example, but they exist all the same.

Simple formulas, such as capitalism, seldom capture the real complexity of a situation and so are inadequate models on which to base social organisation.

Br Cornelius
So because of climate change, you trust the State to make your decisions for you?   The climate is no reason to turn on your own freedom!  The biggest polluters on planet Earth are going to save the climate for us now?  That's our job!  People receive tremendous utility by burning fossil fuels.  When the time comes that is no longer the case, they won't.

The single largest consumer of energy on the planet and I'm going to run to them to tell me how to live my life and save the climate?  

http://ivn.us/2012/0...ral-government/

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#53    Order66

Order66

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,259 posts
  • Joined:05 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Thanatos

  • The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger ...

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:05 PM

I curse you! ...

Posted Image

... with income, wealth, health care and justice!

Posted Image

#54    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:11 PM

View PostYamato, on 23 January 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

So because of climate change, you trust the State to make your decisions for you?   The climate is no reason to turn on your own freedom!  The biggest polluters on planet Earth are going to save the climate for us now?  That's our job!  People receive tremendous utility by burning fossil fuels.  When the time comes that is no longer the case, they won't.

The single largest consumer of energy on the planet and I'm going to run to them to tell me how to live my life and save the climate?  

http://ivn.us/2012/0...ral-government/
I was pointing out that your simple moral perspective was not adequate to cope with the complexity of the real world.
I do not necessarily trust the motives and actions of our Governments, but I certainly do not trust people with no other motive than profit to do a better job.

Nothing we do at the moment seems adequate to see us safely into the future, and freeing up the markets to do more of the same, doesn't seem to me to be any kind of solution to any of the pressing problems we face.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#55    onereaderone

onereaderone

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 378 posts
  • Joined:21 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:earth

  • interfacing transdimentional inverse mobius feed back loop

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

it  is  pretty  clear  that  what  i  say  will  not  be  heard ,  but  lets  see.
money  is a  device  for  the  collection  of  tax's .
a capital  is  a  archetectural  device  for  the  support  of  a  roof.... 2)  a  capital  is  a platform   you  place a statue  on .

capitalism  is   the  cult  of  greatness .

the  capital city  ,  is   the  city  where  statues are  raised ,  where  you  honor  the  great deeds ,  great  thinkers  ,  great success .

to  be  a  true  capitalist  ,  you  must  beleive  in  a god (  the  specific  god  is  not  important  )  because  ....  

capitalism  assumes  that  god  does  not  make  mistakes  ,  and  god  made  you .

god  made  you  with  a greatness  in mind  specific  to  you  ,  and  you alone  have  the  one  greatness  that  the  world  needs...

you  personaly  are  great  at  one  thing  ,  and  one  thing  only  ...and  you sux  at  everything  else !

capitalism  assumes  that  we  have  enought  doctors  ,  plumbers  and  electronic  technicians if  every  one  just  follows  their  heart  and  does  what  they  are  designed  to  be  by  god .

capitalism  assumes  that  no  one  is  equal  to  any  one  else ...   we  all  are  better  than  every  one  else  at  one  thing ,  and  one  thing  only ...  and  its   your  job  to  make  every  one  else  think  that  what  you  have  is  the  si8ngle  , most  kool  thing  there  is ....

communism  is  for  ants  ,  and  equals...  where  no  one  is  any  diffrent  than  any  one  else...   and  you  are  profoundly   unimportant  and  replaceable ...  you  are  disposable  and  of  no  importance...  and  suiside  is  a  fine option  if  you  do  not  fit  in to  the  govermental  system  of  standardize  tests ,  and  doing  what  your  told  by  the  agency   of  medication  and  standardized  schooling.
so  shut  up  and  keep  your  ideas  to  your  self...

capitalism   assumes  that  no  one  is  equal ,  so  get  over  it ...  no  one  is  as  good  as  you...  if  they  play  the  game  you  invent...   and  they  want  you  to  play  their  game  (  so  you  always  lose !) .  

in  the  free  world , your  not  going  to  be happy  if  you  wait  for  the  right  path to  show  up...  your  path  is   your  own  ,  and  frankly  speaking...   the  better  you  are ,  the  more  likly  n the  path  does not  exsist   yet ....   your  path  is  uniquely  yours...  no  one  has  ever  walked  it  ,   the  only  paths   are  those   design'd  by  people  who  want  you  to  walk it...  so  you  will  fail  to  win  at  a game  they  are  masters  at .

in  communism ...   its  a game  where  the  top  people   crush  the  will  and  life  out  of  the  fools  who  follow  the   path  of  equality  .   the ussr  did  not  fail ,  it  was  a glorius  success  at   what  equality   for  the  mass's   really  means .

the ussr  was  an  ant  hill  for  humans...   only  the  intelect  of  an  insect  can  tolarate   the  mindlessness  of   goverment run  life.     only  a the great  intelect  of  children  and proffessional students  who  have  no  real  world  experiance   can  make  communism  work ...   and  only  a person  who  knows  nothing  about  real  world   systems  can  beleive  in  socailism .

coin ,  or  capital  is  a  icon  inscribed  device  for  the  collection  of  tax's  ...   because   you  can  not  collect  tax's on  hourly  service  ,   and  barter   is  not   a  practical  system  for  tax  collection ....

the  value  of   coined-capital   is   that   assigned  by  the  needs of  the   rich  to  pay .

currently ,  with  in  the  united states ...   the  totaly  money   gained  by  income  tax paid  by  the   poorest   100 million  tax  payers...  does  not  pay  for  the  collection  of  the  tax and  record  keeping  .....  and  if  the  employers  costs  are  included  the   pooest  2/3  of   tax  payer  ,  it actualy  costs  more  that  all  the  money  collected  .

the richest  top   5%  of  the  population   pay  between  30%   and  40%  of  all ... all  govermental ...   govermental  expenses .

then the  only  thing  the  goverment  can  do  is  stop  stuff  ... goverment  stops  activity ...   the  more  money  you  give  goverment...  the  more  things  it  can  stop ...    this is  a universal  truth...   in  every  country  on  earth  ,  from  the  beginning  of  time...  at  every  level ....   goverment   turns  money  into   stopping  stuff  from happening ...
... nasa  stopped  people  from   getting  jobs  in  other  industrys...  to  work  on  space ...
police   stop  drivers  from  speeding...

god  makes  rivers....   goverments  damn  them


#56    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,445 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:39 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 January 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

I was pointing out that your simple moral perspective was not adequate to cope with the complexity of the real world.
I do not necessarily trust the motives and actions of our Governments, but I certainly do not trust people with no other motive than profit to do a better job.

Nothing we do at the moment seems adequate to see us safely into the future, and freeing up the markets to do more of the same, doesn't seem to me to be any kind of solution to any of the pressing problems we face.

Br Cornelius
You do not necessarily trust the mass murdering mass polluting hypocrites of government and you certainly do not trust people?   Maybe you just haven't met the right people in your life yet to learn that yes, you can actually trust people?  

Ebay and Amazon are some of the freest markets around, and these internet marketplaces aren't causing the pressing problems we face.   Have some faith in freedom, Br.   Let people be free to trade and live.  If I want a Cuban cigar or a Persian rug, I should be free to make those purchase decisions.   Not hobbled by know-it-alls from the bureau who assure me that because they don't politically agree with someone, I should lose my right to trade with them.   When trade ends, war begins.  I will not substitute the markets of freedom for the machines of tyranny.   That is folly and will come to no good.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#57    Order66

Order66

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,259 posts
  • Joined:05 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Thanatos

  • The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger ...

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:39 PM

View Postonereaderone, on 23 January 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

you  personaly  are  great  at  one  thing  ,  and  one  thing  only  ...and  you sux  at  everything  else !

capitalism  assumes  that  we  have  enought  doctors  ,  plumbers  and  electronic  technicians if  every  one  just  follows  their  heart  and  does  what  they  are  designed  to  be  by  god .

capitalism  assumes  that  no  one  is  equal  to  any  one  else ...   we  all  are  better  than  every  one  else  at  one  thing ,  and  one  thing  only ...  and  its   your  job  to  make  every  one  else  think  that  what  you  have  is  the  si8ngle  , most  kool  thing  there  is ....

i don't agree with that, I think capitalism simply says that in a free market value is determined based on what people want and need and are willing to pay, and value is not dictated by the government. The government tries to social engineer and decide who/what is valuable, saying for example that green energy is valuable and coal is worthless, but in a free market where coal is cheap and in abundance, this really isn't the case.

Posted Image

#58    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:45 PM

View PostYamato, on 23 January 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

You do not necessarily trust the mass murdering mass polluting hypocrites of government and you certainly do not trust people?   Maybe you just haven't met the right people in your life yet to learn that yes, you can actually trust people?  

Ebay and Amazon are some of the freest markets around, and these internet marketplaces aren't causing the pressing problems we face.   Have some faith in freedom, Br.   Let people be free to trade and live.  If I want a Cuban cigar or a Persian rug, I should be free to make those purchase decisions.   Not hobbled by know-it-alls from the bureau who assure me that because they don't politically agree with someone, I should lose my right to trade with them.   When trade ends, war begins.  I will not substitute the markets of freedom for the machines of tyranny.   That is folly and will come to no good.
Life is not all about the purchases we make !

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#59    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,445 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:48 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 January 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Life is not all about the purchases we make !

Br Cornelius
Yes it is.  It's about the purchases we make with our time.  Hopefully we will be able to do that freely and not be force controlled by our masters.   When we get so jaded and caught up about money and wealth envy, we might forget that we all have a normally distributed lifespan on this earth, and what we do with it is as much a purchase decision as a widget we buy with money.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#60    onereaderone

onereaderone

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 378 posts
  • Joined:21 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:earth

  • interfacing transdimentional inverse mobius feed back loop

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:53 PM

upon  the   concepts  of  govermental  systems ,   the  single  answer  is  not  to  do  away  with  goverment ...
the  single  best  answer  is  to  starve  it .

turn off   the  money.
make  it  illegal  for  the  lower  1/3  to  pay  any  tax , levey  ,  fine  or  fee's ...    all  crime  is  punishable  by  jail time....
if  you  want  to  start  a business..   you  just  do it ,  they  can't  stop  you .

leave  the  middle   1/3  of  tax  payers   as  they  are  now ,  with a graduated   scale ....  but  they  pay  the   personel  cost  of  all  the  diffrent  levels  of  goverment....    from  president  to   teller  at  the  DMV...   if  you  work  for  the  goverment...  the  middle   100 million  tax  payers  pay  your  salery  ....   the  richest top   1/3   pay  a  straight  percentage...   no  deductions  ,  no  charity  ,  no  write  offs...   when  your  in  the  top  1/3 ,  its  worth  it  to  spend  the  money  to  make  sure   you  count  what  they  make  ...


and  lets  get  the  fedaral  goverment  back  to  what  it  was  designed  to  do...  regulate  state  goverments ....  and  get  them  out  of  the  business  of  social  engineering .

lets  lower  the  fedaral  budget   to  less  than  1  billion  dollors ....   and  if  a  state  goverment  can  not  manage  a project...  it  doesn't  happen...    the  fedaral  goverment  should  be  in  the  role  of  coordination  of  state  goverment duplication  of  efforts  for  common  goals ...   not   universal   data  base  manigment  of  citizens  tracking   data  ,   and  universal  criminal   felony  arrests  to  prevent  gun  ownership  and  limit   voting  roles   to  like  minded  persons .

goverments  kill  their  citizens ...   of  all  gun  deaths  in  every  country  on  earth ,  since  the  invention  of  guns ...   more  than  10 to  1   goverments  have  killed  their  own  citizens ...  more than  all  the  wars  .
it  gets  better ,  of  those  killed in  wars , how  meny  civilians  were   killed  by  soldiers    because  they  were   not  armed ,  and  the  soldiers  took  all  they  had...  and  then  took  their  lives .

in  the  streets  of  america ,  police  kill   10 times  what   the  gangs   and  the  crazy  medicated  morons manage ...
in  your  own  city  ,  when  was  the  last  time  a  police officer   killed  some  one ...

gun  free  ( fire)  zones  do  little  more  than  draw  crazy  medicated  morons   out  of  their  hermit  holes...   so  a  goverment   can  disarm  the   honest  people ...

if  islam   armed   the  muslim   girlat 10 years  old  and  12 years  old...   there  would  be  fewer   muslim  men   and  more   muslim  virgins    .





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users