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'Peaceful' Minoans Surprisingly Warlike


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#31    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:19 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 27 January 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

That is erudite.  I think though that it its meaning is as I used it.  (As I recall it got its present meaning from a Thomas Moore book, although I should check that before posting this).

1550s, from Modern Latin Utopia, lit. "nowhere," coined by Thomas More (and used as title of his book, 1516, about an imaginary island enjoying perfect legal, social, and political systems), from Greek ou "not" + topos "place" (see topos). Extended to "any perfect place," 1610s.

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

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#32    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:43 PM

View Post~C.S.M~, on 27 January 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

IMO the vulcanic eruption may have not destroyed the Minoian civ. But it could have weakned it, laying the path for the future decline, at hand of other natural events or surrounding civilitations. But what do I know....

Collapse of civilization allways have complex reasons. There is never one. Thats why is interesting to study collapse of civilizations.
But in my research I found that, that there is a pattern which follow all civilization plus one or few more reasons which push collapse.
Social turmoil and greed is same pattern that follow all collapses.

But as I said before (Im saying this because it would be offtopic to developed thread into fall of civilizations question) there is always complex reasons.
What I found interisting that many historians like Atlantis scenario.
That drought, flood, climate changes cause collapses.
I dont think that is a case. But to not expand thread into wrong course I will stay at my statement that always there are complex scenario of collapse.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#33    TheSearcher

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:01 PM

Actually there is a theory that says that due to the climate changes, caused by the eruption, the Minoans began to see their world in a different way. Some researchers believe the Minoan people, stripped of all certainties by the cataclysm of Thera, stopped obeying their priest kings and as such were in no position to fight back when Greeks took control of the island. Their decline in a nutshell, if you will.

And if I weren't in the middle of a move and had all my library packed in boxes I could even reference that. I think it's Colin MacDonald, but I could be wrong.

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#34    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 27 January 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

Actually there is a theory that says that due to the climate changes, caused by the eruption, the Minoans began to see their world in a different way. Some researchers believe the Minoan people, stripped of all certainties by the cataclysm of Thera, stopped obeying their priest kings and as such were in no position to fight back when Greeks took control of the island. Their decline in a nutshell, if you will.

And if I weren't in the middle of a move and had all my library packed in boxes I could even reference that. I think it's Colin MacDonald, but I could be wrong.

Thats just one of the theories on which MANY historians dont agree.

What are evidences that Minoans didnt obey their priest anymore?

Please Searcher. we dont even know what was population on Crete.

When Evans start to dig he must first buy land then he dig with damaging speed. Because Crete was under Ottomans around 1900.

Gods know from where topless priestes with snakes came from, or bull skipping sport. From Crete to Africa is nothing. So did they came from Africa? Who knows what Linear A is hiding from us? What will cryptogram script with 80 signs told us?

One more thing. Disasters closed people together. Thats human psychology.
Did tsunami in Japan caused social turmoil? Did Japanese organize riots? Or even sabotage goverment?

Minoans didnt read Origins but they were not stupid.

Edited by the L, 27 January 2013 - 10:11 PM.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#35    docyabut2

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 January 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Another problem with trying to tie Tell el Dab'a to the Thera eruption is that there is a 120-year variance (actually using 1500 BC versus your 1540 BC) between the date of the Thera eruption and the claimed age of pumice at Tell el Dab'a. To make things more difficult there is also a 100 year variance in just the dates within the Tell el Dab'a samples themselves. To date, these variances have NOT been reconciled and are still a matter of much discussion.


http://www.academia...._millennium_BC.

Source Name:  THE CHRONOLOGY OF TELL EL-DABA: A CRUCIAL MEETING POINT OF 14C DATING, ARCHAEOLOGY, AND EGYPTOLOGY IN THE 2ND MILLENNIUM BC (2012)

cormac


In other words thay are not really sure of the dates:):)

If this Atlantis tale was ever to be true,it would have to based on a real capital city that ruled over other islands in history, that were also destroyed, and like the dialogue says this whole honourable race was to be chastened and improve, so this culture and its people after still had to be around.


Plato
All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea;


#36    cormac mac airt

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 28 January 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

In other words thay are not really sure of the dates:) :)

If this Atlantis tale was ever to be true,it would have to based on a real capital city that ruled over other islands in history, that were also destroyed, and like the dialogue says this whole honourable race was to be chastened and improve, so this culture and its people after still had to be around.


Plato
All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea;

Thera was an important hub for trade, but there is no evidence that it ruled over anyone. And it was definitely not the seat of Minoan power.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#37    Frank Merton

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:42 PM

Someone tell me if I got this right, but Plato's dates are third century BCE and Thera happened 1540 BCE, so Plato is talking about things that happened well over a thousand years before his time.  I know the man knew a lot, but the entire Greek Dark Age was between the two.  How would he have known any better than we know?


#38    cormac mac airt

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 28 January 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Someone tell me if I got this right, but Plato's dates are third century BCE and Thera happened 1540 BCE, so Plato is talking about things that happened well over a thousand years before his time.  I know the man knew a lot, but the entire Greek Dark Age was between the two.  How would he have known any better than we know?

The Thera eruption didn't happen in 1540 BC, but c.1613 +/- 10 BC. Not that that makes it any easier to claim Thera was the basis for Atlantis since Crete was where the seat of power was for the Minoans. Even if Plato had heard tales of Thera's destruction (a big 'if' IMO), it was never as dominant as Atlantis was said to have been. And the destruction of Helike was more contemporary to Plato's time.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#39    docyabut2

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:38 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 28 January 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Thera was an important hub for trade, but there is no evidence that it ruled over anyone. And it was definitely not the seat of Minoan power.

cormac

I was refering to  Knossos ,The palace of Knossos was undoubtedly the ceremonial and political centre of the Minoan civilization and culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos


#40    docyabut2

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:06 AM

Crete ruled over Thera, the best-known Minoan site outside of Crete,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini


#41    cormac mac airt

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:42 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 29 January 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

Crete ruled over Thera, the best-known Minoan site outside of Crete,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini

Which still doesn't help your argument any since Knossos never sunk as Atlantis is claimed to have done.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#42    docyabut2

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:18 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 29 January 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Which still doesn't help your argument any since Knossos never sunk as Atlantis is claimed to have done.

cormac


The island is the site of one of the largest volcanic eruptions in recorded history: the Minoan eruption (sometimes called the Thera eruption), which occurred some 3500:) years ago at the height of the Minoan civilization. The eruption left a large caldera surrounded by volcanic ash deposits hundreds of metres deep and may have led indirectly to the collapse of the Minoan civilization on the island of Crete, 110 km (68 mi) to the south, through a gigantic tsunami.


#43    Abramelin

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:47 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 29 January 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

The island is the site of one of the largest volcanic eruptions in recorded history: the Minoan eruption (sometimes called the Thera eruption), which occurred some 3500:) years ago at the height of the Minoan civilization. The eruption left a large caldera surrounded by volcanic ash deposits hundreds of metres deep and may have led indirectly to the collapse of the Minoan civilization on the island of Crete, 110 km (68 mi) to the south, through a gigantic tsunami.

Plato didn't mention any volcanic eruption, not even this largest one in recorded human history;

Thera didn't sink. it exploded. The caldera is still there;

Crete/Thera is not outside the Pillars of Hercules;

Crete/Thera is not anything the size of Libya (= Africa) and Asia combined, even when you take into account that they underestimated the sizes of these areas;

Plato was very specific about his date of Atlantis' destruction: he didn't just say "it happened very long ago", he said 9600 years before Solon. And that's far from the mid second millenniium BCE.


#44    cormac mac airt

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:32 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 January 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Plato didn't mention any volcanic eruption, not even this largest one in recorded human history;

Thera didn't sink. it exploded. The caldera is still there;

Crete/Thera is not outside the Pillars of Hercules;

Crete/Thera is not anything the size of Libya (= Africa) and Asia combined, even when you take into account that they underestimated the sizes of these areas;

Plato was very specific about his date of Atlantis' destruction: he didn't just say "it happened very long ago", he said 9600 years before Solon. And that's far from the mid second millenniium BCE.

And the point docyabut2 apparently doesn't get is that Crete was where the power was at, Thera was a trading hub. As opposed to Atlantis which was supposed to be the be-all/end-all of the western Mediterranean. If one has to rewrite/reinterpret the story then it's no longer Plato's, it's theirs.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#45    Abramelin

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:56 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 29 January 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

And the point docyabut2 apparently doesn't get is that Crete was where the power was at, Thera was a trading hub. As opposed to Atlantis which was supposed to be the be-all/end-all of the western Mediterranean. If one has to rewrite/reinterpret the story then it's no longer Plato's, it's theirs.

cormac

I found a site from someone who believes Atlantis to have been a reality, but then exactly as Plato described it.

It's a question-and-answer website, and quite enlightening, despite the fact I had some questions with his geological 'proof':

In addition to Plato's Timaeus (24e) locating Atlantis directly "in front of" (pro), or "facing," the Pillars of Heracles, Plato's Critias (114b) describes Atlas as having a twin named Gadirus, who was allotted the portion of the island "closest to" (epi to) the Pillars. He says the ancient city of Gades (on the Atlantic shore of southern Spain, now called Cadiz) was named after that individual. The name, in itself, implies proximity. Plato's description categorically eliminates any location other than the North Atlantic Ocean reasonably close to Spain. Yet, in spite of such precise details, many moderns seek to justify other far-flung locations.

http://www.atlantisq....com/Plato.html





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