43 replies to this topic

[and then]

Yamato, on 28 January 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

The army has nothing to do with it.   The jets are going to Egypt's Air Force, commanded by Reda Mahmoud Hafez Mohamed.   The rest of your post is pure conjecture.

Quite so.  Unlike yourself, I have no first hand info from anyone in Egypt   It's actually less than an educated guess, it's just a hope.  Because if the army is in Mursi's pocket then things are over for the people for a long time to come.  And I don't, won't,  believe that just yet.

[Yamato]

and then, on 28 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Quite so.  Unlike yourself, I have no first hand info from anyone in Egypt   It's actually less than an educated guess, it's just a hope.  Because if the army is in Mursi's pocket then things are over for the people for a long time to come.  And I don't, won't,  believe that just yet.

Yes, it's just conjecture.  Granted there's so much we don't know, it's half past foolish to go dumping advanced military jets into an unknown like Egypt.    But I'm also not the one making sweeping judgments about the government over these court proceedings none of us know about.   We don't know what the evidence is, the lack of evidence, why 21 people were selected for the death penalty, or anything else.   I'm going to withhold making conclusions on this case till I see what happens to the other 50 still up for sentencing.   If they don't get death, then there are obviously differences in the evidence being weighed by the court against these people.

[libstaK]

All I can say right now is poor Morsi, being asked to take the blame for a crime he did not commit, unlike the 21 now facing the death sentence *sarcasm*

[meryt-tetisheri]

libstaK, on 28 January 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

All I can say right now is poor Morsi, being asked to take the blame for a crime he did not commit, unlike the 21 now facing the death sentence *sarcasm*

Oh libstaK, for a moment you had me!!!

Here is an illustration of MB justice, inflicted on protesters around the presidential palace a couple of months ago.
http://www.egyptinde...brotherhood-mob

[libstaK]

meryt-tetisheri, on 28 January 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Oh libstaK, for a moment you had me!!!

Here is an illustration of MB justice, inflicted on protesters around the presidential palace a couple of months ago.
http://www.egyptinde...brotherhood-mob

Oh that is horrible and so much worse than I think most people have imagined as far as the organisation of the MB is concerned, I feel for the people of Egypt.

[AsteroidX]

dang. uncool of the MB.   They lost all credit in my small corner of the world.

[and then]

_{They seem to delight in cruelty.  And this against their OWN..... I think I'll remove visiting the Pyramids from my bucket list for now.  May God protect the freedom seeking peoples of Egypt.}

[meryt-tetisheri]

Don't cross the pyramids off your list, just postpone. Hopefully the dreadful situation in Egypt will not last long. Though things are spiraling now, every day close to a dozen dead and a couple of hundred wounded, the people have lost neither their panache nor their sense of humor. The answer of the people of Port Said, Suez, and Ismaileya to Mursi's curfew? Every night they hold football tournaments in the streets, while some sing and dance around the army's armored vehicles! It will not be the Egyptian people who will be giving up, and those who hedged their bets on MB should take that into consideration.

Edited by meryt-tetisheri, 29 January 2013 - 01:24 AM.

[Yamato]

Oh cry me a one-way river about this "against their own" bit.   Mubarak was a horror.  He should be hung from the neck until dead.
http://www.cbc.ca/ne...pt-torture.html

[meryt-tetisheri]

Yamato, on 29 January 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Oh cry me a one-way river about this "against their own" bit.   Mubarak was a horror.  He should be hung from the neck until dead.
http://www.cbc.ca/ne...pt-torture.html

Yes Mubarak was a horror, but even he did not kill as many demonstrators as the MB. Why are you bringing up Mubarak now? Mubarak’s security arrested and tortured citizens, and that is one of the reasons the revolt against him started. Research Khalid Said, his case ignited the 2011 revolution. The article I linked is about a militia that attacked, tortured, and fabricated evidence to terrorize demonstrators while the police was ordered not to interfere. People did not die to depose Mubarak just to have a worse version of him. You seem to find the present situation something to snide, or shrug off sarcastically with the “cry me a river”, but yourself have never faced anything similar. Real people are dying everyday Yamato, there is no place for sarcasm here.

[and then]

meryt-tetisheri, on 29 January 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Yes Mubarak was a horror, but even he did not kill as many demonstrators as the MB. Why are you bringing up Mubarak now? Mubarak’s security arrested and tortured citizens, and that is one of the reasons the revolt against him started. Research Khalid Said, his case ignited the 2011 revolution. The article I linked is about a militia that attacked, tortured, and fabricated evidence to terrorize demonstrators while the police was ordered not to interfere. People did not die to depose Mubarak just to have a worse version of him. You seem to find the present situation something to snide, or shrug off sarcastically with the “cry me a river”, but yourself have never faced anything similar. Real people are dying everyday Yamato, there is no place for sarcasm here.

Unless I'm mistaken, Meryt, that snideness was aimed at me personally and not at Egyptians   Yam and I have a bit of a history of arguing   But in this case he IS completely wrong - I never even implied that Mubarak was better.  I am a supporter of Israel and Mubarak was dutiful in helping in that respect but he also kept the radical Islamists like the MB at bay for his own protection - as has become obvious.  Our government made bad decisions on who to support all over the M.E. and it's suddenly time to pay the piper.  I just hope that Obama doesn't continue to add insult to already grievous injury.

[Yamato]

meryt-tetisheri, on 29 January 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Yes Mubarak was a horror, but even he did not kill as many demonstrators as the MB. Why are you bringing up Mubarak now? Mubarak’s security arrested and tortured citizens, and that is one of the reasons the revolt against him started. Research Khalid Said, his case ignited the 2011 revolution. The article I linked is about a militia that attacked, tortured, and fabricated evidence to terrorize demonstrators while the police was ordered not to interfere. People did not die to depose Mubarak just to have a worse version of him. You seem to find the present situation something to snide, or shrug off sarcastically with the “cry me a river”, but yourself have never faced anything similar. Real people are dying everyday Yamato, there is no place for sarcasm here.

You answered your own question.  Because Mubarak is one of the reasons the revolt started.   If one doesn't want to face retribution for torturing tens of thousands of people for decades, many associated with the Muslim Brotherhood in one's dungeons, and if you don't want to face the blowback from those policies in the form of a newly-birthed government struggling to establish its authority, I'd recommend against being a monster like Mubarak.  Mubarak doesn't justify Morsi, Mubarak caused the revolution in the first place that led to him winning an election.  

There's no sarcasm in my post.  What could you possibly deduce as sarcasm?   Who do you think Mubarak was torturing?  They were Egyptians.  They were "their own".   My point was literal and true.  As for the present situation in Egypt's courts, yes it's troubling especially for a minority like a Copt or someone who doesn't politically agree with the new gang in charge.

What power is Morsi supposed to have over the courts?  Can you specifically state what he's supposed to do and cite what authority he has to do it with?

Getting back on topic, these 21 may well be mass-murderers.  We're not privy to the court proceedings or the quality of the evidence against them, so patronizing me for what we both don't know isn't necessary.

[Yamato]

and then, on 29 January 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Unless I'm mistaken, Meryt, that snideness was aimed at me personally and not at Egyptians   Yam and I have a bit of a history of arguing   But in this case he IS completely wrong - I never even implied that Mubarak was better.  I am a supporter of Israel and Mubarak was dutiful in helping in that respect but he also kept the radical Islamists like the MB at bay for his own protection - as has become obvious.  Our government made bad decisions on who to support all over the M.E. and it's suddenly time to pay the piper.  I just hope that Obama doesn't continue to add insult to already grievous injury.

Don't take this personally or make it personal about me.  You and I are fine.   And I'm the guy in the room that opposes arming Morsi with advanced jet fighters AND handing out OUR sweetheart freebie money to him to spend however he damned well pleases, and you two seem to have missed me stating that already on this thread.   So I'm way beneath the level of support for Morsi that's already being demonstrated by the US government.   It's pretty obtuse for you to rhetorically justify arming this guy with pie in the sky military hardware while picking a personal bone with me about something I said!  

As for comparisons between Morsi and Mubarak, I haven't seen anywhere close to the gravity I would need to conclude that Morsi is any worse than what Egypt just escaped from.   To certain religious or political groups in Egypt with a dog in this fight, most definitely.  To Meryt, yes no question.  But on balance?   Not even close, so I'm sorry for withholding judgment.  I didn't meant to rattle anyone's cage by doing that.  I have a right to my opinion, like it or lump it.

[meryt-tetisheri]

Yamato, I should start by apologizing for writing a very long post but bear with me; can't find a way to say it more briefly!

That Mubarak’s policies were the cause of the first revolution is a given, but that is not the reason why hundreds of thousands, from all groups, classes, and age groups are demonstrating now.  In 2011 people revolted to force a change, not to end up with more of the same. A brief general comparison:

- Mubarak was infuriatingly and totally out of touch with the people, his information about what was really going on in the country was filtered through a closed clique of trusted associates.

Mursi is also totally & infuriatingly out of touch with the people and the reality on the ground.  He promised to unify all factions during the elections but succeeded in becoming the president of the MB and Salafists only, to the exclusion of all others. He simply listens to them only, and works for their interests only. The constitutional decree, the new constitution and its assembly are but examples.

- Mubarak repressed all dissent, accusing opponents of treason and working for ‘foreign agendas’. National security and police arrested people haphazardly, and tortured them. He disregarded the civic rights of citizens

Mursi & co. accuse opponents of treason, being agents of USA, but added ‘enemy of God and Islam’ to the list. His policies succeeded in introducing an unprecedented rift among Egyptians. ‘Civil war’ is for the first time ever mentioned in Egypt. Demonstrations are dispersed and people are arrested and tortured also by Islamist militias of a secretive international organization which is content to rule through him as an Eminence Gris, yet refuses to legalize itself or declare the sources of its finances. Civic rights are not only disregarded and curtailed, but their very definition is threatened through a constitution that openly disregards rights of women, children and minorities; does not criminalize child labor, allows arrest of citizen for extendable period of 12 hours without charges, and allows religious figures to define and enforce their version of civil rights through a morality police.  

-Mubarak rigged elections, even the dead voted.

The same practices continued, ballot boxes were found in supermarkets, marked ballots trashed in side streets, poor voters were bribed, the dead continued to vote. The investigation of the pre-marked ballots in the presidential elections was never followed through.

- During Mubarak’s era, social justice was an issue; the economy was growing, but wealth did not sufficiently trickle down to the poor.

The economy is totally collapsing now, trusted associates are incapable of running it, each of Mursi’s decisions is followed by a major loss of the stock market; investors fled, the unbridled rhetoric of Islamists killed tourism, devaluation of the pound, the poor became poorer and are joined by many more. The MB’s idea of benefiting the poor is occasionally erecting stalls to sell cheaper vegetables and coupons allowing the poor 3 pitas a day (a decrease of what they consume, people who cannot afford other foods depend on eating lots of bread).

The list goes on & on, but I think my post is long enough. Mursi’s policies are on topic, they are what generated the anger and distrust leading to the demonstrations of the Ultras among others. You seem to be under the impression that only certain groups are opposed to Mursi, while the rest are backing him and the MB. The anger is general and is incrementally increasing. As for your question about the courts, the judiciary should be independent; no president should have any power over it. Mursi can start by not sending his followers to besiege the Supreme Court while chanting “give us a signal and we will send them to you in body bags”, or issuing unconstitutional decrees while immunizing him, or take oath then breaking it repeatedly.

As for the 21, trust in the verdict comes from its being seen to follow due process not political expediency. Some are ‘thugs’, but others are regular football fans including minors and 18 year olds. If the population of Port Said revolt and risk their lives doing that, trust that they would not be doing it to defend mass murderers. I have a bone to chew with oppression and tyranny. I would not have been as opposed to the MB had they been working for Egypt, not exploiting it to further their own interests; in that I am not motivated by my being a Copt, but by my being an Egyptian.