91 replies to this topic

[ExpandMyMind]

Quote

A masked gunman has died after being pinned down and restrained by customers during an armed robbery at a bookmakers in Plymouth.
The man, in his 50s, entered the Ladbrokes branch in Crownhill Road at 18:45 GMT on Friday wearing a gas mask and holding a pistol.
Police arrested the man, who was already unconscious, but he died a short time later at the scene.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngland-21208674

"No way your robbing this bookies. My coupon's just come up!"

Moral of the story: Gun or not, us Brits don't mess about.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 26 January 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[ealdwita]

ExpandMyMind, on 26 January 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Moral of the story: Gun or not, us Brits don't mess about.

Yes, until one or more of the 'restrainers' get charged with manslaughter!

[ExpandMyMind]

ealdwita, on 26 January 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Yes, until one or more of the 'restrainers' get charged with manslaughter!

Aye, that's a bit silly isn't it? This country has no self-defence laws at all. Literally, if someone is attacking you, you are not allowed to defend yourself with, say, a punch. Even if the guy has a knife. And by our laws, even a push on someone can see you charged with assault.

Madness.

[freetoroam]

Well not sure what the law will do with one, they can`t do all the people who pinned him down for manslaughter.....but you never know, there must be 1 do gooder human rights for the wrongens brigade who will ask them to at least try!

[TheLastLazyGun]

ealdwita, on 26 January 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Yes, until one or more of the 'restrainers' get charged with manslaughter!

Proving yet again that people like you are on the side of the criminals rather than the victims and the law-abiding majority.

Way back in medieval times the English were the first people in the world to come up with the idea of citizens' arrest.  Today, the law in England and Wales states that any person or people can apprehend any criminal.  These people should be applauded for putting an end to criminality.  I have no sympathy at all for this thug.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 28 January 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[skookum]

ealdwita, on 26 January 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Yes, until one or more of the 'restrainers' get charged with manslaughter!

Yes and it is bound to be on CCTV, if I was one of the people involved in restraining him I would be extremely worried at the moment.

[Timonthy]

TheLastLazyGun, on 28 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Proving yet again that people like you are on the side of the criminals rather than the victims and the law-abiding majority.

I'm pretty sure that you read ealdwita wrong.

I read it as if he was making the statement that citizens aren't protected if they stop a crime, not that he supports criminals...

[ExpandMyMind]

skookum, on 29 January 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Yes and it is bound to be on CCTV, if I was one of the people involved in restraining him I would be extremely worried at the moment.

I would have been too, but the police gave them a pass (as did the man's, I assume, gangster family (who else says there will be no retribution?)).

[Yamato]

Suffocating a bookstore robber to death in England and not facing charges seems a helluva lot smarter than being charged for doggie burglar bites in Wales.  So I guess it all depends on which Brits are being messed with.

[libstaK]

Yamato, on 29 January 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Suffocating a bookstore robber to death in England and not facing charges seems a helluva lot smarter than being charged for doggie burglar bites in Wales.  So I guess it all depends on which Brits are being messed with.

Not a bookstore owner - a bookmaker aka: bookie, they take bets, which usually means they carry a fair amount of cash during trading.

[Yamato]

libstaK, on 29 January 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Not a bookstore owner - a bookmaker aka: bookie, they take bets, which usually means they carry a fair amount of cash during trading.

Bookiestore then, if you prefer.

So I might as well ask, if the bookmaker's dog bit him to death, would there be Wales-like charges in England?

[libstaK]

Yamato, on 29 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Bookiestore then, if you prefer.

So I might as well ask, if the bookmaker's dog bit him to death, would there be Wales-like charges in England?

*shrugs shoulders* we'll never know cos it didn't happen - yet. I'm betting there is a lawyer somewhere just hanging out for that particular type of case though, make a name for himself and all that jazz....

I am curious as to how the law there does deal with this, hopefully there will be more news bites - am watching this space.

[Sky Scanner]

Yamato, on 29 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Bookiestore then, if you prefer.

So I might as well ask, if the bookmaker's dog bit him to death, would there be Wales-like charges in England?

Depends really, the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) guidelines on self defence are pretty straight forward really - it's defined as the protection of self, property, members of the public, or in the duty of preventing a crime, or apprehending a criminal.

In the case in this thread, it's simply the case that if he was just restrained, and died for some reason then no charges are brought, if however he was restrained and then someone decided to kick him in the head whilst he's laying there, and he dies, charges will be brought as that's not self defence.

With a dog, it depends on the scenario, if no ones around and someone breaks in and is mauled by a dog, no charges, if you let your dog off and it pins someone down to restrain them, no charges...if you encourage the dog to attack and encourage it to maul them to death, you'll be charged, and you'll also be charged if your dog goes for an intruder and then when the intruder is subdued to dog fails to stop on command....since you're in charge of that animal, so the minimum you can expect is a charge of failing to control the animal.

Edit -  there is also nothing in law that says you have to be attacked first, or that you have to retreat etc...all that is media myth.

Edited by Sky Scanner, 29 January 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[Yamato]

Sky Scanner, on 29 January 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Depends really, the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) guidelines on self defence are pretty straight forward really - it's defined as the protection of self, property, members of the public, or in the duty of preventing a crime, or apprehending a criminal.

In the case in this thread, it's simply the case that if he was just restrained, and died for some reason then no charges are brought, if however he was restrained and then someone decided to kick him in the head whilst he's laying there, and he dies, charges will be brought as that's not self defence.

With a dog, it depends on the scenario, if no ones around and someone breaks in and is mauled by a dog, no charges, if you let your dog off and it pins someone down to restrain them, no charges...if you encourage the dog to attack and encourage it to maul them to death, you'll be charged, and you'll also be charged if your dog goes for an intruder and then when the intruder is subdued to dog fails to stop on command....since you're in charge of that animal, so the minimum you can expect is a charge of failing to control the animal.

Edit -  there is also nothing in law that says you have to be attacked first, or that you have to retreat etc...all that is media myth.

Can you cite/link-to the laws or legal precedent that you're explaining here, please?   Are you describing the law in England or Britain?   My supposition was that the dog attacked someone to death.  Whose judgment is going to determine when that intruder is subdued?   I don't see any minimum expectation here at all.   I don't think any charges would be possible in any of your scenarios unless there was eyewitness testimony by people who were there, as there's no way to reliably determine the conditions you're speaking of otherwise.  

In any event, what you just described is far different than the article we discussed previously on burglar bites in Wales.

[questionmark]

Yamato, on 29 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Bookiestore then, if you prefer.

So I might as well ask, if the bookmaker's dog bit him to death, would there be Wales-like charges in England?

Probably not, but the widow (if there is one) might try a civil case (though, to the contrary of the US, they are very unlikely to succeed if the hurt party was committing a crime). Each of the principalities of the UK have their own laws but must abide to Westminster.

Sorry, said the contrary of what I meant

Edited by questionmark, 29 January 2013 - 12:53 PM.