282 replies to this topic

[Beckys_Mom]

Paranoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Paul starts in verse 10 by appealing to the Old Testament story of Esau and Jacob.  In this Old Testament story, Esau lost his birthright to Jacob, even though he was the firstborn and therefore rightful heir.  Paul states clearly in verse 11 - before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works.....  Again this is a very clear statement concerning God's purpose of election in choosing one over the other, not because of anything they had done (works), indeed before they were born or had done anything to deserve it or not, God had chosen one over the other.  One could argue that it related specifically to Esau and Jacob and does not directly relate to us today (a valid observation, but for the rest of the passage - which broadens the context to beyond Old Testament patriarchs).....

All this shows is god is one who will chose who he wishes and who he doesnt..Before they are born... For some reason, you mention how one could argue that god related it to just two people and NOT anyone else.. But in a previous post, you were making it out that god still does and he aims at a lot us us... When you wrote this previously...see below..

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

In my understanding of Christianity, not only is it true what you say - God does know the choices we make, but it is also true that no one can make the choice to follow God unless God calls them.

As you can see, you seem to think god still picks people out and leaves the rest..

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19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Comparing a lump of clay to a human life? Really?   That is a pathetic excuse.. Suggesting who are we to question god?  No one has a right to tell me who I can and cannot question.. Again whoever wrote that, was being narrow minded

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Paul specifically addresses the argument that many today use - "if God made me like this, how can God still blame me for my actions".  And the simple answer Paul gives - who are you to talk back to God.  God, the King, the creator.  You can't understand God.  He's too big for you, you're just a human.  It's not an answer a lot of people like (heck, I don't like it either, and I'm a Christian).  It's not exactly an ideal answer, and I sure wish anywhere in the Bible there was a better answer provided, but this is the answer given.  Paul then uses an analogy that any in the day could understand - how can a pot say to a potter "why did you make me like this".  The potter can make grand pots or common use pots (a decorative vase, or a chamber pot for example).  The pot has no say in the matter - it's all up to the creator of the pot!  God, the creator.  In any case, I'm going to move on to the next few verses:   

Has to be one of the worst analogies I have ever read.. Potters do not make pots to have a mind of their own allowing them to have the freedom to ask such questions..  Humans are... So this again is a cop out of an answer, given by someone who doesn't know why god does what he does... I am not going to follow something that cannot give me direct clear answers, with poor analogies . I have a mind of my own. Which is what god gave me and billions like me..... If I use my own mind to ask those questions, then I cannot be blamed, god can, he created me with that strong mind to ask in the first place

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  22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

I'll end my discussion here after these verses.  Here, Paul theorises why people are actually created for destruction - why would God make people destined for destruction?  What if God created these "objects of his wrath -prepared for destruction" to show the "riches of his mercy" to those whom he "also prepared in advance for glory". He prepared certain people for destruction, in order to show glory to those who also were prepared for glory - in other words, how can we who are saved truly appreciate the massive gift of eternal life that God has given us if we didn't have an alternative (destruction) to compare it to.
  

So, are you telling me, that god created people destine for destruction, just to make the saved ones appreciate what he has given them?   If so, that is the sickest thing I have ever heard...What I take from destruction to mean - People destined for heartache, sorrow,suffering in eternal damnation ...
That would be like- A  man and woman having two children, raising one of them in a rich healthy lifestyle, giving the child everything they ever wanted..
While the other child they have, they make it suffer, lock it away  treat it poorly and make the child suffer pain.. Why is this? The answer -   Because they believe it is logical to do this in order to let their spoilt child see how good they have and appreciate what they have.  This is meant to look good and justify harsh actions....... If social services got wind of this, those two parents would be in prison and rightly so..  But their excuse for treating an innocent child is - "We created them, who are you to question us, we are the parents not you"... Believe it or not, there are sick in the head parents that would do that and say that  if caught..

My previous questions where...

Beckys_Mom, on 30 January 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

It is unfair IF he lays out a commandment telling everyone to follow him and only him

Question 1 -. How does one expect others to do that IF they never get called?
Question 2 - Does this mean those who were never called to follow him, will never make it to heaven?  IF so why would he ever do that to anyone, as they are not at fault, he was in control ?
Question 3 - Why is it fair for the rest to spend eternity in darkness?
Question 4 - Why make such a commandment for others to read and follow ?    The bible commandments do not say, this is only aimed at a selected bunch...!

Your answer summed up is - Who are we to question god? If you wish to follow and accept that, that is your own choice.........To speak on my own behalf,  I see this as a weak cop out, and proof that no decent answers could ever be given.. I would not follow anything that told me that god chooses me and not my family..  I could never feel that was fair, not if we are designed with the ability  to love our family..I don't believe in leaving my family behind.
I will never understand why he would make a commandment asking everyone to follow him and he selects who he likes regardless, a tad pointless.. Yet it all comes from a religion that is big on the phrase - We are ALL equal in the eyes of god... AND  He loves you !!    Yea like a toothache !!

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 31 January 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

I pity your attitude, because that sounds horrible.

Why is it horrible to wish you the best with the comfort your beliefs about the Afterlife bring???

shadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

You want to know what I think? Kids shouldn't be preached at. Children are extemely impressionable and so should likely only be exposed to religion in such a way when they are able to make a decision for themselves. A child shouldnt be expected to be x religion just because their parents are.

A not uncommon belief.  I don't agree, but that's not really the point of this thread.

shadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

It's amazing you can show such restraint esspecially since you think the only purpose of non-chosen is for destruction.

[sarcasm]Yes, I suppose you're right.  Deep down I really have a massive superiority complex and the only reason I don't look down my nose at everyone is a matter of self-restraint.

You know me so well[/sarcasm]

shadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

I'm always disturbed by that line of thinking because of how insulting it is to human life and how disturbing it actually is. If a dictator killed a million people, that would be considered an extremely bad thing. God kills a milion people? That's ok, because it's god! Everything he does is a'ok. Hey, he could have us all slaughtered and we should sing his damn praises for it!

We are not objects. We are living, sentient beings. If your god wants to treat us as objects that he can destroy on a whim than I'm sorry, but that's nothing I can pledge my allegience to (actually scratch the sorry part). I don't see how anyone in good conscience can follow an entity that has such callous disregard for life.

I can think of a few words that I'd use to describe that instead of preachy. Contemptable. Disgusting. Disturbing. Twisted. Evil. And I could go on. Omnce again, excellent job at making me want to be a christian less.

One must go in with eyes open if they are to truly understand a faith.

shadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

As always, I do hope you see some form of sense. But it seems you abandoned sense a long time ago.

And that's the way it is, 'cause Stone Cold shadowhive said so!

[Frank Merton]

Amalthe, on 31 January 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Apparently not, because then, all creatures will know about consequences of Rebellion. You have to understand, at the begining, rebellion was not considered evil by heavenly creatures, it was more of a expansion of choices, a new field of development. Understand that rebels have in essence more power than God, because they can cheat, while God can't.  But at the end, true face of rebellion is shown to heavenly creatures, and Son of Man will eternaly carry the scars on his body, and Earth will eternally burn in flames, for a reminder of consequences of rebellion.

Are you serious or just pulling my leg?

[Paranoid Android]

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

All this shows is god is one who will chose who he wishes and who he doesnt..Before they are born...

My point exactly.

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

For some reason, you mention how one could argue that god related it to just two people and NOT anyone else.. But in a previous post, you were making it out that god still does and he aims at a lot us us... When you wrote this previously...see below..


As you can see, you seem to think god still picks people out and leaves the rest..

Err, I said that one could (ie, hypothetically) argue that this applies only to these two people, HOWEVER (see the qualifying statement) - except that the rest of the passage does not support it.  I never agreed with the premise that it refers to just these two people.  I put that into my post because someone once tried to argue that point with me.

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Comparing a lump of clay to a human life? Really?   That is a pathetic excuse.. Suggesting who are we to question god?  No one has a right to tell me who I can and cannot question.. Again whoever wrote that, was being narrow minded


Has to be one of the worst analogies I have ever read.. Potters do not make pots to have a mind of their own allowing them to have the freedom to ask such questions..  Humans are... So this again is a cop out of an answer, given by someone who doesn't know why god does what he does... I am not going to follow something that cannot give me direct clear answers, with poor analogies . I have a mind of my own. Which is what god gave me and billions like me..... If I use my own mind to ask those questions, then I cannot be blamed, god can, he created me with that strong mind to ask in the first place

It was an analogy, a pot cannot argue with the pot-maker anymore than a human can argue with God.

Note - I don't expect you to agree.  I'm not writing this to convince you to change your mind.  I'm writing this to inform you of what is said in the Bible.

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

So, are you telling me, that god created people destine for destruction, just to make the saved ones appreciate what he has given them?   If so, that is the sickest thing I have ever heard...What I take from destruction to mean - People destined for heartache, sorrow,suffering in eternal damnation ...
That would be like- A  man and woman having two children, raising one of them in a rich healthy lifestyle, giving the child everything they ever wanted..
While the other child they have, they make it suffer, lock it away  treat it poorly and make the child suffer pain.. Why is this? The answer -   Because they believe it is logical to do this in order to let their spoilt child see how good they have and appreciate what they have.  This is meant to look good and justify harsh actions....... If social services got wind of this, those two parents would be in prison and rightly so..  But their excuse for treating an innocent child is - "We created them, who are you to question us, we are the parents not you"... Believe it or not, there are sick in the head parents that would do that and say that  if caught..

I remember an article a year or so back where a woman in America killed her children for similar reasons (not identical, but along the same line of reasoning).  Obviously she didn't realise she was setting herself up as Judge and God and therefore breaking God's laws.

That said, what you take from destruction (in your words, "People destined for heartache, sorrow,suffering in eternal damnation ...") is entirely wrong.  While some may experience heartache and sorrow (it is, after al, a natural part of human existence) there is no indication that said people are "suffering in eternal damnation", and some of them actually expect and want the future that awaits them.

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

My previous questions where...



Your answer summed up is - Who are we to question god? If you wish to follow and accept that, that is your own choice.........To speak on my own behalf,  I see this as a weak cop out, and proof that no decent answers could ever be given.. I would not follow anything that told me that god chooses me and not my family..  I could never feel that was fair, not if we are designed with the ability  to love our family..I don't believe in leaving my family behind.
I will never understand why he would make a commandment asking everyone to follow him and he selects who he likes regardless, a tad pointless.. Yet it all comes from a religion that is big on the phrase - We are ALL equal in the eyes of god... AND  He loves you !!    Yea like a toothache !!

My answer summed up - who are we to question God?  Yes, in some ways that is the case.  As I said in my post, I don't like that answer.  I sure as heck wish that a better answer was supplied in the Bible.  But it isn't.  And as a Bible-believing Christian I accept that and move on.  However, that was not the entirety of my answer.  I also looked into the hypothesis made by Paul in Romans 9 about how it works.  As I said earlier, I'm not writing this to convince you it is true, I'm just sharing what I (as a Bible-believing Christian) believe in.

~ Regards, PA

[Paranoid Android]

Frank Merton, on 31 January 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

I suppose then even the blessed in Heaven, given enough time, will rebel and have to be sent to Hell.  In the end God will be alone and have to start over.

Theologically, when we are in heaven we will be in possession of new bodies, and we will be new creations - spirit entities - and these creations do not have the sin-nature that our human bodies possess.  Therefore, no matter how long goes by in heaven, there will be no sin (thus no rebellion), it is an impossibility of our new nature.

Just thinking aloud (well, typing aloud... well, typing. Quietly )

~ PA

[redhen]

Paranoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

I still maintain that the fact we suffer in this world does not indicate a God who does not love us.  It only indicates a God who has an agenda other than our health and well-being in this our physical existence.

This is the argument for the greater good. Logically, this could be plausible, except no one has ever been able to establish what this greater good is. The evidential problem of evil is harder to refute.

[Paranoid Android]

redhen, on 31 January 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

This is the argument for the greater good. Logically, this could be plausible, except no one has ever been able to establish what this greater good is. The evidential problem of evil is harder to refute.

Scientifically the greater good cannot be established.  Theologically, though, it can.  The greater good is eternity.  What good is it for a man to gain the whole world but condemn his eternal soul?

[Beckys_Mom]

Paranoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Err, I said that one could (ie, hypothetically) argue that this applies only to these two people, HOWEVER (see the qualifying statement) - except that the rest of the passage does not support it.  I never agreed with the premise that it refers to just these two people.  I put that into my post because someone once tried to argue that point with me.

You have misunderstood me... I said in your post you mentioned how one can argue he only meant this for two people, I saw you put that in as hypothetical.. What I was pushing at you was your previous statement that proves that you believe  god still does this and you think its true   ..This is the post I am referring to, you had said - In my understanding of Christianity, not only is it true what you say   God does know the choices we make, but it is also true that no one can make the choice to follow God unless God calls them.   So this tells me you still think god does this to people

Quote

  It was an analogy, a pot cannot argue with the pot-maker anymore than a human can argue with God.

Note - I don't expect you to agree.  I'm not writing this to convince you to change your mind.  I'm writing this to inform you of what is said in the Bible.   

The analogy doesn't work, its a cop out..And I knew you were pointing out what you read in the bible, I could clearly see that, but I am just saying the analogy is useless and holds no logic..Comparing a lump of clay to human life is illogical

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   That said, what you take from destruction (in your words, "People destined for heartache, sorrow,suffering in eternal damnation ...") is entirely wrong.  While some may experience heartache and sorrow (it is, after al, a natural part of human existence) there is no indication that said people are "suffering in eternal damnation", and some of them actually expect and want the future that awaits them.   

How would you know what they expect?  I am not saying they don't, but it could be that many won't...

Quote

My answer summed up - who are we to question God?  Yes, in some ways that is the case.  As I said in my post, I don't like that answer.  I sure as heck wish that a better answer was supplied in the Bible.  But it isn't.  And as a Bible-believing Christian I accept that and move on.  However, that was not the entirety of my answer.  I also looked into the hypothesis made by Paul in Romans 9 about how it works.  As I said earlier, I'm not writing this to convince you it is true, I'm just sharing what I (as a Bible-believing Christian) believe in.

I differ from you  ( as you know ) and I do not find it acceptable.. If I find something in life not acceptable, I stay clear of it..   I see it as a weak excuse because the person who wrote it, had no real answers..

I will say this PA, you have given the answers you felt fitted the questions.. At least I didn't have to listen to a load of stuff about how god is not that powerful, and those in the bible that say he is  are just wishful thinkers ..If I had to listen to things like that again, I would loose some IQ points !!

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 31 January 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[shadowhive]

Paranoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Why is it horrible to wish you the best with the comfort your beliefs about the Afterlife bring???

Because at the end of the day you still that with the add on 'it doesn't matter if you're destroyed anyway'.

Quote

A not uncommon belief.  I don't agree, but that's not really the point of this thread.

Not surprised you're ok with impressionable people being preached at, considering you do it.

Quote

[sarcasm]Yes, I suppose you're right.  Deep down I really have a massive superiority complex and the only reason I don't look down my nose at everyone is a matter of self-restraint.

You know me so well[/sarcasm]

Sarcastic attitude aside, your belief seems hinged on a negative attitude and outcome towards those that aren't 'chosen'. Like with everything though, you seem to think the negativity is diminished because you're not the one acting on it.

Quote

One must go in with eyes open if they are to truly understand a faith.

My eyes are open and look what I'm seeing. An entity that's cruel and heartless, yet praised as a hero. It's like god's holding a gun to your head and you're praising him for not pulling the trigger.

Quote

And that's the way it is, 'cause Stone Cold shadowhive said so!

No, that's how I see it. You say above that one must go in with eyes open to understand a faith. Well it seems to me the reason is so it can more effectively blind you, because it seems that's exactly what your faith has done.

You say you're not like the christians I've had bad experiences with, but in the end you are not different to them really. The bible/god says so, so screw anything else that says otherwise. Because anything else is just said by lowly humans to mess up the precious chosen.

[Paranoid Android]

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

You have misunderstood me... I said in your post you mentioned how one can argue he only meant this for two people, I saw you put that in as hypothetical.. What I was pushing at you was your previous statement that proves that you believe  god still does this and you think its true   ..This is the post I am referring to, you had said - In my understanding of Christianity, not only is it true what you say   God does know the choices we make, but it is also true that no one can make the choice to follow God unless God calls them.   So this tells me you still think god does this to people

Yes, that is what I believe, and that is also what I said!  Why bring it up if what I said and what I believe are the exact same thing.

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

The analogy doesn't work, its a cop out..And I knew you were pointing out what you read in the bible, I could clearly see that, but I am just saying the analogy is useless and holds no logic..Comparing a lump of clay to human life is illogical

Not to the creator of the pot.  The potter sees a lump of clay and has a design for it, a purpose for which he desire to create.  So does God.  The focus of the analogy is on the creator of the pot, not the pot itself (and by extension, the focus is on God, not on the created beings).

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

How would you know what they expect?  I am not saying they don't, but it could be that many won't...

Because I've seen them say exactly that.  As I said, someone posted on here about a week ago stating exactly that - for them, non-existence would be heaven.

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

I differ from you  ( as you know ) and I do not find it acceptable.. If I find something in life not acceptable, I stay clear of it..   I see it as a weak excuse because the person who wrote it, had no real answers..

I will say this PA, you have given the answers you felt fitted the questions.. At least I didn't have to listen to a load of stuff about how god is not that powerful, and those in the bible that say he is  are just wishful thinkers ..If I had to listen to things like that again, I would loose some IQ points !!

People always seem to say that Christians "pick and choose" what they like or don't like, and if something doesn't sit right with them then they find a way to change what the text says or ignore it.  I would think this disproves that (to some small extent, at least).  I don't like the answers given, I wish they were different.  But wishing it so does not make it so, and because I am a Bible-believing Christian I accept it and incorporate it.  I won't ignore it, and I won't dismiss it or say it's out of context.

Just a thought (and yes, it's not really topical, I just thought I'd mention it in passing).

~ PA

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Because at the end of the day you still that with the add on 'it doesn't matter if you're destroyed anyway'.

I can't stop believing what I believe.  If an atheist believes nothing is after this life, and they say to you that they are glad you find comfort in belief in an afterlife, but then say that they don't believe such and that when you die you die, are they being any less hateful?

shadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Not surprised you're ok with impressionable people being preached at, considering you do it.

These impressionable people are being preached at every day - through tv, pop-culture, Hollywood, secularism, and more.  Adding in an alternative to all this for them to consider could well be considered as simply an act to square up the ledger between religion and secularism.

shadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Sarcastic attitude aside, your belief seems hinged on a negative attitude and outcome towards those that aren't 'chosen'. Like with everything though, you seem to think the negativity is diminished because you're not the one acting on it.

At the end of the day, I do not believe these people to be lesser beings.  It doesn't even cross an inkling in my mind.  You can believe otherwise, but you would be wrong.  I know me better than you know me.

shadowhive, on 31 January 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

No, that's how I see it. You say above that one must go in with eyes open to understand a faith. Well it seems to me the reason is so it can more effectively blind you, because it seems that's exactly what your faith has done.

You say you're not like the christians I've had bad experiences with, but in the end you are not different to them really. The bible/god says so, so screw anything else that says otherwise. Because anything else is just said by lowly humans to mess up the precious chosen.

And as with many things you perceive about me, this also is wrong.  Your perception is acknowledged, though not agreed on

~ Regards, PA

[Goddess_Lilith]

The problem is not with "evil", the problem is with people who believe that their is this mythical creature called the devil running around spreading evil around. Maybe quit focusing on bible bs & come join us in reality and figure out what's really causing people to do aweful things.

[Goddess_Lilith]

Btw my vote is a lot of the "evil" is due to that amazing bible bs.

[Frank Merton]

Paranoid Android, on 31 January 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Theologically, when we are in heaven we will be in possession of new bodies, and we will be new creations - spirit entities - and these creations do not have the sin-nature that our human bodies possess.  Therefore, no matter how long goes by in heaven, there will be no sin (thus no rebellion), it is an impossibility of our new nature.

Just thinking aloud (well, typing aloud... well, typing. Quietly )

~ PA

My problem with this is that the Blessed in Heaven will still have free wills.  This means that no matter how unlikely, it remains a possibility that they will sin.  Now the Jesus sacrifice chip has already been spent.  Therefore any sin and its an automatic damnation.

Mathematically, it can be shown that anything that is possible (chance exceeds zero) must, in an infinity of time, necessarily happen (in fact must happen an infinite number of times, but in this case only one time is enough).  Therefore you have all these saved sitting around in Heaven knowing that sooner or later some sin will happen and its off to damnation.  I can imagine them always walking on eggs.

The only solution would be to take away their free wills, but of course then they are not the people they were, but automatons.

[Paranoid Android]

Frank Merton, on 31 January 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

My problem with this is that the Blessed in Heaven will still have free wills.  This means that no matter how unlikely, it remains a possibility that they will sin.  Now the Jesus sacrifice chip has already been spent.  Therefore any sin and its an automatic damnation.

Mathematically, it can be shown that anything that is possible (chance exceeds zero) must, in an infinity of time, necessarily happen (in fact must happen an infinite number of times, but in this case only one time is enough).  Therefore you have all these saved sitting around in Heaven knowing that sooner or later some sin will happen and its off to damnation.  I can imagine them always walking on eggs.

The only solution would be to take away their free wills, but of course then they are not the people they were, but automatons.

1- As spirit entities, there is no sin nature, therefore no possibility to sin.  I'm not just inventing that, this is what is said in the Bible, we will be reborn perfect, no sin, no ability to sin.

2- And this kind of follows on from point #1, but on what basis are you arguing that we have free will?  Especially as new creations (ie, not human, not physical beings) how can we say for certain what our lives will or won't be like?  Who's to say that as these new spirit entities we simply won't have the capacity to rebel.