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Problem of Evil

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#16    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:32 PM

View Postmanbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:



Seriously, what proof do you have that God exists besides personal testimonials?


If people dating back to 2000 years or more, wrote something down about god, then that is proof.. If they believed so should we

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#17    manbearpigg

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:21 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 28 January 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

If people dating back to 2000 years or more, wrote something down about god, then that is proof.. If they believed so should we

I disagree. In that same logic, we should believe that Dragons existed long ago.
In that same logic 2000 years from now, people should believe that dragonball was real and GOKU existed.


#18    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:43 AM

View Postmanbearpigg, on 29 January 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

I disagree. In that same logic, we should believe that Dragons existed long ago.

I believe they did, in fact I believe that god could be a dragon...  They wrote it all those years ago, so because it is ancient, I see no reason why they would ever make up tales..  I had a dream about going to heaven and god was a massive dragon..   In the bible, god paid many people a visit in their dreams, so I must be just like them :yes:

Quote

n that same logic 2000 years from now, people should believe that dragonball was real and GOKU existed.

Whatever floats their boat.. Or should I say , slays their dragonball  lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 29 January 2013 - 12:44 AM.

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#19    manbearpigg

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:01 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 29 January 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

I believe they did, in fact I believe that god could be a dragon...  They wrote it all those years ago, so because it is ancient, I see no reason why they would ever make up tales..  I had a dream about going to heaven and god was a massive dragon..   In the bible, god paid many people a visit in their dreams, so I must be just like them :yes:



Whatever floats their boat.. Or should I say , slays their dragonball  lol

lol at that last part.
and I believe that dragons are the mystic personification of our ancient Dinosaur brethren.
but back to what I was saying, there many diverse views on god or gods depending on region, time, type of group (homogeneous or not).

we can't take ALL their accounts and many of them contradicting one another (like male/female deities, multiple/singular, good god/legalistic god etc).

AND yes the unifying element in all this is that all the ancient groups did worship a form of a deity but many were spirits from nature (trees rocks animals). Thus in that logic, must we give credibility in shamanism and the worship of nature? (druids?) Isn't that kind of against what our modern abrahamic god commands us to do? (one god worship and no pagan idols)


#20    manbearpigg

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:02 AM

View PostCoffey, on 28 January 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

Yes I agree with that to an extent.

not trying to start a fight here, but which part did you find less than satisfactory?


#21    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:18 AM

View Postmanbearpigg, on 29 January 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

lol at that last part.
and I believe that dragons are the mystic personification of our ancient Dinosaur brethren.
but back to what I was saying, there many diverse views on god or gods depending on region, time, type of group (homogeneous or not).

we can't take ALL their accounts and many of them contradicting one another (like male/female deities, multiple/singular, good god/legalistic god etc).

AND yes the unifying element in all this is that all the ancient groups did worship a form of a deity but many were spirits from nature (trees rocks animals). Thus in that logic, must we give credibility in shamanism and the worship of nature? (druids?) Isn't that kind of against what our modern abrahamic god commands us to do? (one god worship and no pagan idols)

I believe in diversity of gods, and I should point out that although the bible says, not to worship other gods, but see that same god speaks of tolerance and acceptance, so I take that he means acceptance of other peoples gods and faith too  BUT I can add, you're wrong and you might burn for it....If I am wrong, I can always pray like hell on my death bed to all the gods, in the hopes of catching the right one..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 29 January 2013 - 01:20 AM.

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#22    srd44

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:20 AM

View Postmanbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the problem of evil but just in case here it goes:

1) GOD (in the Abrahamic Religions) is omnipotent (ALL ABLE), omniscient (ALL KNOWING) and omni-benevolent (ALL LOVING).
2) EVIL/SIN exists (again in the religious sense.)
3) GOD is not one of those three things thus the GOD that many major religions believe does not exist.

Not so fast. ALL your premises above are inaccurate. Although you follow mainstream/public thought, these are misconceptions and inaccuracies.

1) No where in the Bible (except the post-exilic literature of deutero-Isaiah perhaps) is Yahweh presented as omnipotent, omniscient, and especially not omni-benevolent. All of these are later theological ideas that get brought into the tradition from the Greek philosophical tradition. The over-arching theological premises of the biblical writers was that Yahweh is sovereign. This means that he controls ALL national, historical, and personal events. Here are some biblical quotes that exemplify this

Ex 4:11: "Who makes a person dumb or deaf, gives sight or makes blind? Is it not I, Yahweh!"
Amos 3:6: "Should evil befall a city and Yahweh has not done it?"
Is 45:6-7: "I am Yahweh and there is none other; I fashion light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I am Yahweh who does all these things!"

I would furthermore argue that our 20th century conception and use of "God" does not equal the biblical writers, as you misplaced premises strongly suggest. We have, in short, invented new gods, and new religions, and assigned them as the old ones since the latter have become part of an authoritative tradition.

1 Bible Contradiction a day -- identified & explained !! http://contradictionsinthebible.com

#23    manbearpigg

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:12 AM

Srd44:

I think you have this thread confused. No judgment here.
My argument is against that very same mainstream thought of a perfect abrahamic god.
The reason i use theology and mainstream beliefs is the same reason why socrates did what he did.
The use of rhetoric is to turn ones own words/beliefs against himself.

Yes the bible is a loose collection of hebrew/arabic/greek and possibly post-roman european writings.
Yes the biblical god is not at all what the majority thinks, especially the old testament god.
All i am doing is fighting fire with fire since water does not proove effective against the close hearted.

Again no animosity here what so ever.



#24    manbearpigg

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:21 AM

Oh and yes we have created the modern "god" .
If we travel to the 15th century to the dawn of the religious reformation, our modern christians would have been burned at the stake for heresy no doubt.

Reinventions and reforming old gods to fit the new is an old game no?

God: osiris: zeus: odin
Mary: isis: hera: freya
Jesus: ra or horus: dionysus: thor

All share virgin birth, creationism, human sacrifice, demi-gods.

And yes i am forgetting zorasterism and mithrasim but i need to research more before speaking on these subjects.

Sorry i cant quote im on my phone...




#25    Sean93

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:23 AM

God was built with an agenda and so reflects the agenda of the humans that created it/him. Seeing god act like a dictator and genocidal maniac in one passage and then like a hippy in the other should be proof enough that the idea of him is convoluted. It's a great form of manipulation actually; like hugging someone warmly and lovingly while telling them that if they **** with you, you'll kill them. He's imperfect because the movement of time dictates him to be so, in our age of justice and law as opposed to the period in which he was fabricated: the Bronze Age, where our laws were more barbaric than they are now, although it's important to note that some of those barbaric laws have survived in the birth land of Christianity and yet many Christians would agree that stoning a woman to death in the Middle East for having Pre-marital sex is wrong...even though it was right at the time and is still acceptable among adderants of a new strand of the Abrahamic religions: Islam.

I wonder what God will be like in 100'000 years time. I predict nothing like Yahweh or Allah or any of the others, well mostly at least.

"Regarding life, the wisest men of all ages have judged it alike: It is worthless."

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

#26    Paranoid Android

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:18 AM

View Postmanbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the problem of evil but just in case here it goes:

1) GOD (in the Abrahamic Religions) is omnipotent (ALL ABLE), omniscient (ALL KNOWING) and omni-benevolent (ALL LOVING).
2) EVIL/SIN exists (again in the religious sense.)
3) GOD is not one of those three things thus the GOD that many major religions believe does not exist.

The COUNTERARGUMENT:

1) What we perceive as evil can be good in GOD's plan
2) In order to know and experience GOOD there must be a relative EVIL (light/shadow theology)
3) As an ANT cannot fathom the renaissance or computers, WE cannot fathom GOD's actions.


This is my COUNTER-COUNTERARGUMENT:
1) if God is all powerful why does not create an alternate reality without the need for evil? (AKA HEAVEN?)
2) If God Is all knowing, why does did he go through the process of creating something that he does not desire?
3) If God is all loving, what happens to those who are not fortunate enough to know or even hear one of the three major Abrahamic Religions? (CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, JUDAISM)
And here is my Counter-Counter-Counter-argument:

1- Why do you presume that if God exists then his primary goal is that we all be happy here on earth?  

That's basically it.  The premise that God is good, sin exists, God is omni-present/benevolent/etc so he should stop it, but he doesn't so God doesn't exist.  But what if the entire basis of that premise is flawed?  What if God has other plans for us other than having a good and fun time in the here and now?  


View Postmanbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

Seriously, what proof do you have that God exists besides personal testimonials?
I have none (none that can be empirically studied, at least, which is pretty much what you were asking for).  I'm not offering proof, it's illogical of you to demand it of me.


View Postmanbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

what proof do you have against the fact that people have existed before the founding of these religions?
People did exist before the founding of these religions, that's not in debate (only a Young-Earth Creationist would argue such nonsense).  But that doesn't mean that the religions are therefore false.  Just as (in my opinion) God had ways of reaching people before Christ, so also did he have ways of reaching people before Abraham.  Further back than that, I cannot say, but I believe God had his methods.


View Postmanbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

what would you say if i told you that the modern bible was CREATED in 325AD by the first council of NICAEA?
I'd say you don't know your history as well as you think.  The Bible we know of was CODIFIED at Nicaea.  But it was not CREATED there.  The texts already existed for centuries.  The Tanakh (what we call the Old Testament) had already been codified centuries before Nicaea, done by the Jews about 200 years before Christ.  Nicaea came to select New Testament texts, all of which were around long before Nicaea, none of them "created" from nothing in 325 AD.  


View Postmanbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

Where is your God now?
Right where I left him, behind the sofa... err, I mean he's still with me, right where he's been ever since I turned to Christ 13 years ago.  I believe that he dwells inside me by virtue of the Holy Spirit.

And just so I don't double post -

View Postmanbearpigg, on 29 January 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

God: osiris: zeus: odin
Mary: isis: hera: freya
Jesus: ra or horus: dionysus: thor

All share virgin birth
No, they don't.  Methinks you've been reading too many conspiracy sites.  Try real historical research first.  

~ Regards, PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 29 January 2013 - 06:21 AM.

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#27    manbearpigg

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:16 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 29 January 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

And here is my Counter-Counter-Counter-argument:

1- Why do you presume that if God exists then his primary goal is that we all be happy here on earth?  

That's basically it.  The premise that God is good, sin exists, God is omni-present/benevolent/etc so he should stop it, but he doesn't so God doesn't exist.  But what if the entire basis of that premise is flawed?  What if God has other plans for us other than having a good and fun time in the here and now?  

I can't speak for the Almighty so i dunno but my problem with that logic is that a God whom a majority of religious believe in (or at least the concept of him) is even willing to create such a painful reality for the majority of us. Yes you and I are happy behind our computers but a huge portion of the world is already living in hell.
If you say that the God you believe in is ok with suffering and dying people for the "plan", I rest my case.

I have none (none that can be empirically studied, at least, which is pretty much what you were asking for).  I'm not offering proof, it's illogical of you to demand it of me.

I don't think its illogical at all. when you make a statement (any kind of statement) you should be able to back up with viable proof or at least credible testimonies.
It's the same as everything else, if you don't have proof then you don't know for sure so you can't make a statement about it.

People did exist before the founding of these religions, that's not in debate (only a Young-Earth Creationist would argue such nonsense).  But that doesn't mean that the religions are therefore false.  Just as (in my opinion) God had ways of reaching people before Christ, so also did he have ways of reaching people before Abraham.  Further back than that, I cannot say, but I believe God had his methods.

I believe every major religion has a great central message of peace and love so no i don't think it's "false". its actually the "opium of society" and we need drugs.
however some of the outrageous claims many religions and their holy books tend to make discredits a large portion of it yes. If you look at it logically, the more contradictions and un-scientific stands a holy book claims, the less truth is in that book itself thus credibility to what message that book preaches is also lost.

I'd say you don't know your history as well as you think.  The Bible we know of was CODIFIED at Nicaea.  But it was not CREATED there.  The texts already existed for centuries.  The Tanakh (what we call the Old Testament) had already been codified centuries before Nicaea, done by the Jews about 200 years before Christ.  Nicaea came to select New Testament texts, all of which were around long before Nicaea, none of them "created" from nothing in 325 AD.  

you are right and i knew that as well. it didnt seem important to detail in the facts but that is the reason why i said the MODERN bible since the compilation of all those different books did not come to being until the council decided, thus creating the MODERN or standard bible we use today. Why you dissing my history yo? don't be a douche man.



Right where I left him, behind the sofa... err, I mean he's still with me, right where he's been ever since I turned to Christ 13 years ago.  I believe that he dwells inside me by virtue of the Holy Spirit.

And just so I don't double post -

No, they don't.  Methinks you've been reading too many conspiracy sites.  Try real historical research first.  

Yes they do, and no i don't do conspiracies, only factual things I see. Its not hard to see that our money system is in chaos and there are the same people profiting at every turn. Its FACTUAL when i claim that AIG JP MORGAN G/S GM etc. funds both side of the political spectrum. Its real when i say that there are people who control the world and they don't mind breaking peace for profit. Are they reptiles, aliens, NWO, freemasons? I don't think so but I don't know.
and guess what, you don't know either. We may NEVER know.
nothing is 100%, just like god.

oh, and im not trying to an ass, sorry if i came off that way.

~ Regards, PA



#28    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:34 AM

View Postmanbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the problem of evil but just in case here it goes:

1) GOD (in the Abrahamic Religions) is omnipotent (ALL ABLE), omniscient (ALL KNOWING) and omni-benevolent (ALL LOVING).
2) EVIL/SIN exists (again in the religious sense.)
3) GOD is not one of those three things thus the GOD that many major religions believe does not exist.

The COUNTERARGUMENT:

1) What we perceive as evil can be good in GOD's plan
2) In order to know and experience GOOD there must be a relative EVIL (light/shadow theology)
3) As an ANT cannot fathom the renaissance or computers, WE cannot fathom GOD's actions.


This is my COUNTER-COUNTERARGUMENT:
1) if God is all powerful why does not create an alternate reality without the need for evil? (AKA HEAVEN?)
2) If God Is all knowing, why does did he go through the process of creating something that he does not desire?
3) If God is all loving, what happens to those who are not fortunate enough to know or even hear one of the three major Abrahamic Religions? (CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, JUDAISM)

Seriously, what proof do you have that God exists besides personal testimonials?
what proof do you have against the fact that people have existed before the founding of these religions?
what would you say if i told you that the modern bible was CREATED in 325AD by the first council of NICAEA?
Where is your God now?

What proof do you have that God doesn't exist?

You didn't even respond to your own counterargument underlined and in bold. Most likely because you have no response.

Where is my God now? Probably facepalming at your pathetic attempt to out think him.

If you want to talk science, go ahead. If you want to sit down and have a civil dicussion on some of these topics (since you presented a few), then go ahead. However, if you want to post a snide topic backed by no further evidence than the spiritual members you're addressing this to, simply in an attempt to belittle them and make you feel powerful, then please refrain for the sake of your own integrity.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#29    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:37 AM

EDIT:*oops, double posted somehow...*

Edited by AquilaChrysaetos, 29 January 2013 - 08:39 AM.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#30    Amalthe

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:56 AM

View Postmanbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the problem of evil but just in case here it goes:
Although i'm almost sure you will misinterpret my words, or completely fail to understand the logic behing my answers, there's always 2% chance that what i write will actually mean something to someone :) so just in case here it goes :)

Quote

1) GOD (in the Abrahamic Religions) is omnipotent (ALL ABLE), omniscient (ALL KNOWING) and omni-benevolent (ALL LOVING).
No 1 is wrong, God has limitations. He is His own limit. In a sense that when He states something, He has to follow through. He cannot go against His words.
The existence of absolute categories that we called "good" and "evil" must assume that there is a rule or a law that defines what is good and what is evil. Think about that Law, as a fence that divides what is good, and what is evil. Without that fence, there would be no difference between good and evil. Therefore, God is limited to only one side of the fence, while his Adversary has no limitations in that matter, so in a way he is more powerfull than God. It's like a game of chess, where one playe plays strictly by the rules of the game, and other is allowed to cheat. Who will likely win?

Quote

2) EVIL/SIN exists (again in the religious sense.)
No 2 is result of God creating creatures with free will. Even if you take perfectly created being, teach him everything, and you give him an option to choose between abiding the law and breaking the law, during eternity, eventually Law MUST be broken. Therefore existence of evil IS consequence of free will. But Evil has limited span. After the appointed time comes, and all creatures witness the results of breaking the Law, Evil will cease to exist.

Quote

3) GOD is not one of those three things thus the GOD that many major religions believe does not exist.
Would be logical if No 1 would be true. It is not, since God will not compromise creatures free will with His actions, therefore no 3 is false. However, there is a limitation in God tolerance of free will, it is called Justice, read about that in next part

Quote

The COUNTERARGUMENT:

1) What we perceive as evil can be good in GOD's plan
No 1. is valid, but with some explanation: By Law God did not only define what is good and what evil, He also defined the consequences of doing evil. That is called justice. So if you see a woman beating the man, you could see it as evil thing, but it also might be the case that this woman is administering justice to the man due to his previous evil actions. Therefore the act of woman beating man could not be evil. So, only with full understanding of the story behind it, can we judge is some action good or evil.

Quote

2) In order to know and experience GOOD there must be a relative EVIL (light/shadow theology)
In a sense this is true, but it is not valid for eternity. Evil will cease to exist after all creatures experience its consequences. In christian theory, it is when Jesus returns.

Quote

3) As an ANT cannot fathom the renaissance or computers, WE cannot fathom GOD's actions.
Not true, God is based on same logical principles as human logic is, because He created logic. Also we can understand actions of God because He gave us the privilege to bear and raise our children, and His behaviour is similar to parents behaviour.

Quote

This is my COUNTER-COUNTERARGUMENT:
1) if God is all powerful why does not create an alternate reality without the need for evil? (AKA HEAVEN?)
He could create universe populated with robots without free will in which there would be no evil. But he chose not to do so.

Quote

2) If God Is all knowing, why does did he go through the process of creating something that he does not desire?
That is a mystery to me, but have in mind, God knew that He would have to suffer terribly for his children if He gave them free will. Yet he chose to do that. In a sense, it is similar to woman who chooses to have a baby, although she's aware that she will go through great pain in order to deliver her child. Only answer i came up with is LOVE.

Quote

3) If God is all loving, what happens to those who are not fortunate enough to know or even hear one of the three major Abrahamic Religions? (CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, JUDAISM)

Every single being is born with Law implemented in his mind. It is called consciousness. Anyone who hasn't had a chance to learn about God in that way, will be judged by his consciousness.

Edited by Amalthe, 29 January 2013 - 09:03 AM.






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