Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Top analyst from CIA compares apartheid


  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#1    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:23 PM

Opposing Apartheid, Then and Now

Paul Pillar, The National Interest
December 17, 2012


Several factors contributed to the demise of apartheid in the land where that term originated, South Africa. Inspired and timely leadership within South Africa was an important ingredient. But international agitation and pressure, based on a widespread sense of moral outrage, undoubtedly were also critical. The international response included unofficial boycotts and official sanctions, with great and lesser powers alike contributing.

International opposition to the most conspicuous current example of apartheid—Israeli subjugation of Palestinian Arabs—is not nearly as ubiquitous as opposition to the South African variety had become near its end in the early 1990s. But there are signs that it is growing. Organized efforts are aimed at boycotting products from settlements Israel has built in occupied territory in the West Bank. A recent noteworthy departure in the policy of a major power was Germany’s refusal to toe the Israeli line in a vote in the United Nations General Assembly.

To the extent that international opposition to Israel’s conduct toward the Palestinians may indeed be growing, there are good reasons. One is a realization that the Israeli version of apartheid is very similar in important respects to the South African version, and that moral equivalence ought to follow from empirical equivalence. Both versions have included grand apartheid, meaning the denial of basic political rights, and petty apartheid, which is the maintaining of separate and very unequal facilities and opportunities in countless aspects of daily life. Some respects in which Israelis may contend their situation is different, such as facing a terrorist threat, do not really involve a difference. The African National Congress, which has been the ruling party in South Africa since the end of apartheid there, had significant involvement in terrorism when it was confronting the white National Party government. That government also saw the ANC as posing a communist threat.
A fitting accompaniment to the similarities between the two apartheid systems is the historical fact that when the South African system still existed, Israel was one of South Africa’s very few international friends or partners. Israel was the only state besides South Africa itself that ever dealt with the South African bantustans as accepted entities. Israel cooperated with South Africa on military matters, possibly even to the extent of jointly conducting a secret test of a nuclear weapon in a remote part of the Indian Ocean in 1979.

The sheer passage of time probably has reduced the reluctance of some to confront Israel about its system of apartheid. As each year goes by, it seems less justifiable for horrors that were inflicted on the Jewish people in the past to be a reason to give a pass to whatever are the policies of the present day’s Jewish state no matter how oppressive those policies may be to another people. Less than five years from now will be the 50th anniversary of the war that Israel launched and used to seize the West Bank and other Arab territory; maybe the half-century mark will be an occasion for even more people to observe that what exists in the occupied territories is a well-entrenched system of subjugation. Meanwhile, the lock that Benjamin Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition have on Israeli politics provides frequent opportunities to see through obfuscatory rhetoric and perceive the intention to make that subjugation permanent.

Nonetheless, other factors will make it difficult to mobilize against Israeli apartheid anything like the international consensus that arose to confront the South African version. The European history linked with Zionism and the establishment of Israel still weighs heavily on this issue. Since the Balfour Declaration the concept of an exclusive national home for the Jewish people has been widely accepted, quite unlike anything ever bestowed on the Afrikaaners or white South Africans generally. Related to that is the charge of anti-Semitism that is quickly injected into any significant discussion that questions Israeli policies. And related to that is the very large role that toeing the Israeli government line plays as political orthodoxy in the most important global power, the United States. Some observers hopefully see signs that this orthodoxy may be weakening, pointing to indications such as resistance at the Democratic convention this summer to a resolution about Jerusalem. Perhaps if President Obama appoints—and gets confirmed—Chuck Hagel as secretary of defense in the face of the opposition that the Israel lobby is already cranking up, that will become another data point suggesting the harmful political orthodoxy may be weakening.

Another impediment to mobilizing against Israeli apartheid concerns the desired end-state of the Palestinian situation. Officially, even according to the Israelis, that goal is the two-state solution: separate states for Jews and Arabs. This makes the situation different from South Africa, in which the objective in dismantling apartheid there was always going to involve a one-state solution. Israeli governments such as Netanyahu’s thus can continue to pretend to seek a two-state solution, treating the situation in the West Bank not as one of permanent subjugation but as only a temporary problem involving “disputed territory.” And if the ostensible goal is a Palestinian state, this inevitably muddies the issue of Palestinian rights and Palestinian life under Israeli rule. Why get agitated about the details of the Palestinians’ lives today, the Israelis can say, when if the Palestinians just stop terrorizing and start negotiating they can have a state of their own? Indefinitely maintaining the illusion of wanting a two-state solution is a reason Netanyahu—despite the willingness of some in his party and coalition to let the cat out of the bag regarding their true intentions—has stopped short of steps that would clearly kill off the two-state solution. That is why his recent “punishment” of the Palestinians involving expansion of settlements into the critical E1 zone involved the initiation of planning and zoning but may never lead to actual building.

Meanwhile, Israelis can keep muddling through, relying on their armed might and believing genuinely that they can maintain their superior position indefinitely. By cordoning off—and periodically clobbering—the patch of blockaded misery known as the Gaza Strip, Jewish Israelis can remain a majority in the rest of the land they control. That is not something that white South Africans could ever hope for.

The overall conclusion of this comparison between the two versions of apartheid is disconcerting. In any meaningful moral (or legal) sense, the Israeli system of apartheid warrants just as much active international opposition as the South African system did. But for a combination of historical and political reasons, it is substantially more difficult to mount such opposition.

There is also the problem of leadership. The current leadership situation on the Israeli side gives little reason for hope for responsiveness even if substantially greater international opposition could be mobilized. But then again, it would have been hard to predict that F. W. de Klerk would have taken the historic steps he did. A Nelson Mandela on the other side would help, too. It’s hard to see one, but maybe Marwan Barghouti could play that role if the Israelis would let him.

[Paul Pillar worked for the CIA for 28 years, becoming the head of Assessments and Information Group of the Counterterrorist Center in 1993 and the CTC's deputy director 1997-99. He was a Federal Executive Fellow at the Brookings Institution from 1999 to 2000. From 2000 to 2005 he was the national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia which reports to CIA.

http://jfjfp.com/?p=37582

Here is the orginal article Opposing Apartheid, Then And Now with additional links! Might be a good idea to read this one!

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#2    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,665 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:29 PM

Rumour is that Europe is pushing hard for substantive movement in peace talks in March.  Sanctions against Israel have been alluded to if progress is not made.  My guess is that with the current political situation in Israel there might be a deal this time - IF the Palestinians are willing to compromise at all.  I think they will this time and I think they will gain some territory, consolidate it and then start attacking again.  If they do I hope Israel removes them from all of Judea and Samaria  forever.  PERIOD  - end of discussion and tell the world to go to hell if they don't like it.  Mind you, this ONLY if the Palestinians prove they are acting in bad faith by attacking yet again after agreeing to peace.  If they keep their word then so be it - let them live side by side in peace.  And as an aside - I think the Afrikaners would have been better off if they HAD gotten their own state.  South Africa is a mess these days.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#3    Ashotep

Ashotep

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,407 posts
  • Joined:10 May 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

  • Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway-John Wayne

Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:34 AM

I think both sides are at fault here and there is going to have to be compromise to settle things and both sides are going to have to honor it.  If one attacks the other then I would attack back.  No one is going to sit there and do nothing if they are being attacked.

I have to agree South Africa is a mess since Mandela started running things not that there wasn't something wrong with they way things were going before he took over.


#4    acidhead

acidhead

    Were Not Your Slaves!

  • Member
  • 10,513 posts
  • Joined:13 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Victoria, BC CANADA

Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:01 AM

View Postand then, on 29 January 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

Rumour is that Europe is pushing hard for substantive movement in peace talks in March.  Sanctions against Israel have been alluded to if progress is not made.  My guess is that with the current political situation in Israel there might be a deal this time - IF the Palestinians are willing to compromise at all.  I think they will this time and I think they will gain some territory, consolidate it and then start attacking again.  If they do I hope Israel removes them from all of Judea and Samaria  forever.  PERIOD  - end of discussion and tell the world to go to hell if they don't like it.  Mind you, this ONLY if the Palestinians prove they are acting in bad faith by attacking yet again after agreeing to peace.  If they keep their word then so be it - let them live side by side in peace.  And as an aside - I think the Afrikaners would have been better off if they HAD gotten their own state.  South Africa is a mess these days.

Genocide is certainly an option.  One the Israelis GOV will be forced to answer if they don't commit suicide first.

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#5    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,665 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:27 AM

View Postacidhead, on 30 January 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

Genocide is certainly an option.  One the Israelis GOV will be forced to answer if they don't commit suicide first.
Where did I say anything about genocide?  And when has Israel ever attempted such a thing - it's a silly statement Acid.  Forcing the Israeli government to answer seems to be what the world has in mind these days.  Here is a dangerous game though and I'll tell you why.  Only a brain dead moron would deny that the world is vastly anti Israel one need look no farther than the consistent voting of the thugocracy of the UN to prove that.  The myth that is being perpetuated against all human logic is that somehow, someway a plan will be found and implemented that can give the Palestinians what they want.  It's only fair, right?  And it would end their grievances and peace would come to the world.  Inconveniently though we have a nation of about 7 million who will die before giving up what they firmly believe to be their own rightful place in the world.  Are you seeing the dangerous part yet?  Yet the world's governments keep pushing, ever pressing and always toward the same goal.  So when it goes BANG!  I think I'm going to allow myself a brief chuckle at the roars of sycophantic indignation around the world and then watch as Israel finally does what it has needed to do for decades - put paid to all claims and demand their own rights in Judea and Samaria, retake the Gaza and invite everyone who doesn't want the shame of *gasp* apartheid to stain them, to move on and find a place for themselves in one of the already existing 22 Muslim states.  Ahhh Duncan, you crazy hatemonger... :gun:   but the truth is that only a war will settle this and I think we all know it.  Yet the dreaming and the dangerous game slowly move on....

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#6    Sir Wearer of Hats

Sir Wearer of Hats

    SCIENCE!

  • Member
  • 10,348 posts
  • Joined:08 Nov 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queensland, Australia.

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:00 PM

And Then - your policy is "and if you don't like being kicked out of your home and homeland and made a vassal of another country, then p*** off somewhere else".
That's a little ... well lets just say "Sent East" for my liking. A little too "torn from the pages of history".

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#7    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,665 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:27 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 30 January 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

And Then - your policy is "and if you don't like being kicked out of your home and homeland and made a vassal of another country, then p*** off somewhere else".
That's a little ... well lets just say "Sent East" for my liking. A little too "torn from the pages of history".
And the idea that this one people, and they alone, are special enough that they do not have to succumb to the "rules" the world lived under for millennia is the same for me WoH.  The Palestinians were uprooted by the UN and moved a short distance and offered a smaller state than they wanted.  In many cases in history, others - including the Jews - were simply told to p*** off and we'll kill you if you complain too loudly.  But because the world at large has an issue with the Jews the Palestinians have found a willing accomplice to their hatred and intransigence.  And it's going to cause a war unlike anything this world has seen before.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#8    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,475 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:33 AM

I hope I would be "at fault" for pulling out an AK-47 when government comes to bulldoze my house because I'm not the desirable person it thinks should live there.   Hell, I support Americans who barricade themselves behind walls for not paying income taxes, supporting the Palestinians for what they're putting up with is incalculably past the point of legitimacy.   Israeli policy crumbles to pieces the moment our own standards of freedom and righteousness are applied.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#9    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,665 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:30 AM

View PostYamato, on 31 January 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

I hope I would be "at fault" for pulling out an AK-47 when government comes to bulldoze my house because I'm not the desirable person it thinks should live there.   Hell, I support Americans who barricade themselves behind walls for not paying income taxes, supporting the Palestinians for what they're putting up with is incalculably past the point of legitimacy.   Israeli policy crumbles to pieces the moment our own standards of freedom and righteousness are applied.
Let them fight then.  Let it go on and on and on.  Freedom and righteousness isn't for Palestinians alone.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#10    Sir Wearer of Hats

Sir Wearer of Hats

    SCIENCE!

  • Member
  • 10,348 posts
  • Joined:08 Nov 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queensland, Australia.

Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:14 AM

View Postand then, on 31 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

And the idea that this one people, and they alone, are special enough that they do not have to succumb to the "rules" the world lived under for millennia is the same for me WoH.  The Palestinians were uprooted by the UN and moved a short distance and offered a smaller state than they wanted.  In many cases in history, others - including the Jews - were simply told to p*** off and we'll kill you if you complain too loudly.  But because the world at large has an issue with the Jews the Palestinians have found a willing accomplice to their hatred and intransigence.  And it's going to cause a war unlike anything this world has seen before.
Yes, and if the past oppressions were happening now I hope to think that we'd all be suitably and equally outraged.
Sadly, my TARDIS is broken too, so I  can't go back and voice my opposition. However, here I am and here I see something that's morally abominable.

God will protect Israel, you and I believe that. Someone just needs to stand on the street corner and tell the Israelis that they need to be worthy of that protection. There were always two types of prophets in the Bible (three if you count false ones) the ones of prosperity and the ones of doom. The former were welcomed by all, the later shunned because they spoke the truth.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#11    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,665 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 31 January 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Yes, and if the past oppressions were happening now I hope to think that we'd all be suitably and equally outraged.
Sadly, my TARDIS is broken too, so I  can't go back and voice my opposition. However, here I am and here I see something that's morally abominable.

God will protect Israel, you and I believe that. Someone just needs to stand on the street corner and tell the Israelis that they need to be worthy of that protection. There were always two types of prophets in the Bible (three if you count false ones) the ones of prosperity and the ones of doom. The former were welcomed by all, the later shunned because they spoke the truth.
I totally agree.  And those in the positions of power who persecute Palestinians and steal from them will undoubtedly pay for their actions.  In fact the whole nation of Israel will pay an awesome price for their disobedience and in some cases, arrogance.  I have repeatedly made clear that my support is for the people of the nation and not the policies of the leadership.  They are as flawed as any other government from the stand point of being susceptible to human nature.  I am commanded by my faith in God to support them and I do.  I believe in His word and I know that one day it will all be explained - the mystery finished.  Those who use a human standard to judge Israel seem to forget that any standard we employ is imperfect and when we take on the attitude that we know better than our Creator who is worthy of what fate, well, I think that's folly.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#12    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 31 January 2013 - 01:24 PM

View Postand then, on 31 January 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

I totally agree.  And those in the positions of power who persecute Palestinians and steal from them will undoubtedly pay for their actions.  In fact the whole nation of Israel will pay an awesome price for their disobedience and in some cases, arrogance.  I have repeatedly made clear that my support is for the people of the nation and not the policies of the leadership.  They are as flawed as any other government from the stand point of being susceptible to human nature.  I am commanded by my faith in God to support them and I do.  I believe in His word and I know that one day it will all be explained - the mystery finished.  Those who use a human standard to judge Israel seem to forget that any standard we employ is imperfect and when we take on the attitude that we know better than our Creator who is worthy of what fate, well, I think that's folly.

No, you just sound like a brainwashed tool to me!

No where in God's word does it ever state any country that exists today is above criticism because quite frankly most of them didn't even exist when that word was written.

But hey, Israel does not live by God's standards it lives by human standards afterall. I don't place Jews above anybody else in this world especially secularist Zionist Jews. Remember there is no Jew and Gentile anymore in the Kingdom Of God, the partition between Jew and Gentile has been torn down.

Have you ever thought that it was not God's will for you to TURN A BLIND EYE? Wasn't the hypocrisy and arrogance of the Pharisees, lawyers, and scribes that would have DEMANDED you to turn a blind eye to their ungodly deeds? But not Jesus?!

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#13    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,665 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:34 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 31 January 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

No, you just sound like a brainwashed tool to me!

No where in God's word does it ever state any country that exists today is above criticism because quite frankly most of them didn't even exist when that word was written.

But hey, Israel does not live by God's standards it lives by human standards afterall. I don't place Jews above anybody else in this world especially secularist Zionist Jews. Remember there is no Jew and Gentile anymore in the Kingdom Of God, the partition between Jew and Gentile has been torn down.

Have you ever thought that it was not God's will for you to TURN A BLIND EYE? Wasn't the hypocrisy and arrogance of the Pharisees, lawyers, and scribes that would have DEMANDED you to turn a blind eye to their ungodly deeds? But not Jesus?!
This comment was a reply to someone else Bug.  You and I disagree completely, always will and I no longer bother with arguing with you.  Have a nice day.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#14    Raptor Witness

Raptor Witness

    Savant

  • Member
  • 2,306 posts
  • Joined:17 Sep 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:So beautiful

  • ראה

Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:25 AM

You've got three major religions on earth, believing in a last stand at Jerusalem. That's a recipe for war, without any provocation.



Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013

#15    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,665 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:50 AM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 05 February 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

You've got three major religions on earth, believing in a last stand at Jerusalem. That's a recipe for war, without any provocation.


Interesting in the extreme that it has developed in this way, don't you think?  I don't believe in coincidence.  I believe in a Creator who has a plan.  The plan appears damned crazy to me at times but I just remind myself of whatHe told some questioner from the Bible when asked why He did such and such - Where were YOU when I placed the stars in heaven and created the foundations of the earth?  Where indeed....

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users