49 replies to this topic

[and then]

You should ask yourself why it is so important that another person's opinions silenced or nullified.  I speak of what I genuinely believe.  So far I have had no reason these 40 years to doubt those beliefs.  The Jews have returned - and are continuing to return - from all places on earth where they were scattered.  They have created an "exceedingly great army" and have made the land flower.  The fact that one can point to the mechanisms of how this occurred does not mean that it is NOT prophecy fulfilled.  God is creator of both natural and super natural.  I am not responsible for anyone but myself Yam.  I support the people of Israel because I'm directed to by my faith.  You seem driven to oppose them.  That's not a choice I can make - ever.

[Yamato]

and then, on 11 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

You should ask yourself why it is so important that another person's opinions silenced or nullified.  I speak of what I genuinely believe.  So far I have had no reason these 40 years to doubt those beliefs.  The Jews have returned - and are continuing to return - from all places on earth where they were scattered.  They have created an "exceedingly great army" and have made the land flower.  The fact that one can point to the mechanisms of how this occurred does not mean that it is NOT prophecy fulfilled.  God is creator of both natural and super natural.  I am not responsible for anyone but myself Yam.  I support the people of Israel because I'm directed to by my faith.  You seem driven to oppose them.  That's not a choice I can make - ever.

So?   Your biblical beliefs collide with your policy beliefs.  You effectually put to death the people you claim to support.   You should agree with me more than I do, taking your beliefs at face value.

[and then]

Yamato, on 11 March 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

So?   Your biblical beliefs collide with your policy beliefs.  You effectually put to death the people you claim to support.   You should agree with me more than I do, taking your beliefs at face value.

If you actually believe this then you have a very skewed take on reality.  I believe we went to the moon.  Did I make that happen Yam?  I believe that when I turn on a switch at the wall in my home - voila' ! Light occurs - did I create it?  I speak about what I believe and you continually explain to me why I am wrong, hinting I have no real faith and that perhaps I'm just a warmonger.  You obviously do not respect scripture about prophecy.  Since it makes up over 1/4 of the entire Bible, I'd say it is you who are the misinformed one here.  Jesus said that He was foretelling things so that when they happened, people would see them and believe in Him.  What/who do you believe in Yam?  You are intense on attacking injustice as you see it.  Quick to denounce wrong doers and cheer for your perceived under dogs but you never seem the slightest bit interested in what scripture has to say about things that will happen in the very near future.  It is a common thing actually.  You are hardly alone in such behavior.  But when you rely on your own concept of what is right and wrong to the point of scoffing even at God's word then you set yourself up for a great fall.

[B Jenkins]

and then, you take the typical Christain Zionists stance is the Jews are in the holy land and that's that. End of story.

But Christians like myself, are taking a closer look there are more qualifers involved here. Does God desire his nation, his people to be an apartheid. Shouldn't and wouldn't it be wonderful if this regathering was accompanied by movements of the Holy Spirit and brotherhood... not robbery and human rights violations. Shouldn't the State of Israel glorify God personally with powerful movements of the Holy Spirit. Shouldn't the Holy Spirit be present and shouldn't Israel represent righteousness and brotherhood of all man.

[and then]

B Jenkins, on 15 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

and then, you take the typical Christain Zionists stance is the Jews are in the holy land and that's that. End of story.

But Christians like myself, are taking a closer look there are more qualifers involved here. Does God desire his nation, his people to be an apartheid. Shouldn't and wouldn't it be wonderful if this regathering was accompanied by movements of the Holy Spirit and brotherhood... not robbery and human rights violations. Shouldn't the State of Israel glorify God personally with powerful movements of the Holy Spirit. Shouldn't the Holy Spirit be present and shouldn't Israel represent righteousness and brotherhood of all man.

Yes, B Jenkins, Israel IS intended to do and be those things.  They are a wayward lot, hadn't you read?  They've been punished over and over down the centuries and STILL they go their own way in rebellion.  Just like the rest of us in this human condition.  I do not try to justify the sins of Jews or anyone else - especially not my own.  But in living my life by the tenets of faith that I have I cannot be other than supportive of those I believe to be God's chosen.  I expect that if I had been born into the slavery of a Palestinian refugee camp I might hate them with a fierceness unless I had found the love of Christ and known His forgiveness.  There is not a single thing done in the darkness that will not someday see the light.  God is not mocked.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 15 March 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Yes, B Jenkins, Israel IS intended to do and be those things.  They are a wayward lot, hadn't you read?  They've been punished over and over down the centuries and STILL they go their own way in rebellion.  Just like the rest of us in this human condition.  I do not try to justify the sins of Jews or anyone else - especially not my own.  But in living my life by the tenets of faith that I have I cannot be other than supportive of those I believe to be God's chosen.  I expect that if I had been born into the slavery of a Palestinian refugee camp I might hate them with a fierceness unless I had found the love of Christ and known His forgiveness.  There is not a single thing done in the darkness that will not someday see the light.  God is not mocked.

Oh I see, these people get a free pass in life... cuz da Bible sez so!

In my eyes, we are all equal and I did not delegate God's rights to any given people.

So if a Jew came up to you and robbed you. Or threatened your family. Took your home and land. Cut down your garden. Told you to ride the back of the bus. That's fine... cuz da Bible sez so!

That's Jewcentricism. EDIT: Everyone's rights deserve to be respected. And should be respected. Or one risks corrupting the land with evil! God fulfilled his promises with the Jews twice and twice it fell. Twice they were scattered. And why? Because they filled the land with evil!

Edited by B Jenkins, 15 March 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[and then]

B Jenkins, on 15 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Oh I see, these people get a free pass in life... cuz da Bible sez so!

In my eyes, we are all equal and I did not delegate God's rights to any given people.

So if a Jew came up to you and robbed you. Or threatened your family. Took your home and land. Cut down your garden. Told you to ride the back of the bus. That's fine... cuz da Bible sez so!

That's Jewcentricism. EDIT: Everyone's rights deserve to be respected. And should be respected. Or one risks corrupting the land with evil! God fulfilled his promises with the Jews twice and twice it fell. Twice they were scattered. And why? Because they filled the land with evil!

"Cause da Bible sez?"  Now you mock me personally BJ?  That certainly strengthens your point of view.  I've been respectful of you, you could at least return the favor.

[Yamato]

and then, on 11 March 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

If you actually believe this then you have a very skewed take on reality.  I believe we went to the moon.  Did I make that happen Yam?  I believe that when I turn on a switch at the wall in my home - voila' ! Light occurs - did I create it?  I speak about what I believe and you continually explain to me why I am wrong, hinting I have no real faith and that perhaps I'm just a warmonger.  You obviously do not respect scripture about prophecy.  Since it makes up over 1/4 of the entire Bible, I'd say it is you who are the misinformed one here.  Jesus said that He was foretelling things so that when they happened, people would see them and believe in Him.  What/who do you believe in Yam?  You are intense on attacking injustice as you see it.  Quick to denounce wrong doers and cheer for your perceived under dogs but you never seem the slightest bit interested in what scripture has to say about things that will happen in the very near future.  It is a common thing actually.  You are hardly alone in such behavior.  But when you rely on your own concept of what is right and wrong to the point of scoffing even at God's word then you set yourself up for a great fall.

Not believing in your interpretation of prophecy doesn't equate to disrespect on my part.   If you don't believe mine, I don't accuse you of disrespect in turn.

You have no policy ideas to avert war, only ideas that practically guarantee it.  And a Biblical prophecy belief to boot.  My positions will avert war, and minimize death should war come anyway, and perhaps most importantly of all, minimize the suffering of good people in the meantime.   I have this position formed on good American values that you claim to support in rhetoric only but fail the test when it comes time to put that rubber on the road.  One thing even our modern day Neocon republicans and Wilsonian democrats should agree with me on is that our values as Americans should apply to people outside of our borders.  If we really believe in liberty it will be clear in how we respect the liberty of others, otherwise it means nothing.  Everyone supports their own liberty.  To really believe in liberty you have to support someone else's.   You think that exercise should be determined on religious or ethnic lines and that is a tragedy of humankind in the making.

[and then]

Yamato, on 15 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Not believing in your interpretation of prophecy doesn't equate to disrespect on my part.   If you don't believe mine, I don't accuse you of disrespect in turn.

You have no policy ideas to avert war, only ideas that practically guarantee it.  And a Biblical prophecy belief to boot.  My positions will avert war, and minimize death should war come anyway, and perhaps most importantly of all, minimize the suffering of good people in the meantime.   I have this position formed on good American values that you claim to support in rhetoric only but fail the test when it comes time to put that rubber on the road.  One thing even our modern day Neocon republicans and Wilsonian democrats should agree with me on is that our values as Americans should apply to people outside of our borders.  If we really believe in liberty it will be clear in how we respect the liberty of others, otherwise it means nothing.  Everyone supports their own liberty.  To really believe in liberty you have to support someone else's.   You think that exercise should be determined on religious or ethnic lines and that is a tragedy of humankind in the making.

America has no power to defy the will of God.  To take a stance contrary to God's word guarantees you will at the least be disappointed with your outcomes.  My problem is that I actually believe the scriptures, I don't just use them as a backdrop to discuss personal desires of how things SHOULD be.  I respect your stance and applaud your determination.  Ultimately I fully believe you will fail though.  You reject completely, God's chosen people.  As you get older you will see them continue to survive and maybe even continue to prosper for a while longer.  You can let that frustrate you and view it as an evil thing - OR - you can see it as a sign of divine intervention.  Either way there is nothing you, I or America can do to stop what will be.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 15 March 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

"Cause da Bible sez?"  Now you mock me personally BJ?  That certainly strengthens your point of view.  I've been respectful of you, you could at least return the favor.

I am mocking the attitude. There is a genuine and true danger if that book justifies "looking the other way" on crimes against humanity. When it silences the cries of victims, silences the cries of refugees, silences the cries of apartheid. If it contributes to the suffering of literally MILLIONS. Because of all these factors contribute to something laboratory cold... sterile... soul-less... something inhumane. It is all about never "looking the other way" when human rights are violated. And realizing the Bible should never be used to justify it either.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 16 March 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

America has no power to defy the will of God.  To take a stance contrary to God's word guarantees you will at the least be disappointed with your outcomes.  My problem is that I actually believe the scriptures, I don't just use them as a backdrop to discuss personal desires of how things SHOULD be.  I respect your stance and applaud your determination.  Ultimately I fully believe you will fail though.  You reject completely, God's chosen people.  As you get older you will see them continue to survive and maybe even continue to prosper for a while longer.  You can let that frustrate you and view it as an evil thing - OR - you can see it as a sign of divine intervention.  Either way there is nothing you, I or America can do to stop what will be.

There was a time when God used to raise prophets... do you recall them, and then? Think about it. Let it sink in.

[and then]

B Jenkins, on 16 March 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

I am mocking the attitude. There is a genuine and true danger if that book justifies "looking the other way" on crimes against humanity. When it silences the cries of victims, silences the cries of refugees, silences the cries of apartheid. If it contributes to the suffering of literally MILLIONS. Because of all these factors contribute to something laboratory cold... sterile... soul-less... something inhumane. It is all about never "looking the other way" when human rights are violated. And realizing the Bible should never be used to justify it either.

"Looking the other way" is what people DO, BJ.  But the Bible doesn't justify it.  And I don't try to justify the sins of Israelis against Palestinians.  I DO try to point out that this story has TWO sides - something uniformly denied by those who support Palestinians.  In your world the Palestinians would triumph and Israeli Zionism would be defeated but you (and every other Palestinian supporter on UM) NEVER answer the truth of what that actually means on the ground.  It isn't the victory of one political system over another.  It would mean the deaths and or subjugation of millions of Israelis.  Do you deny this?  When every war against the Jews since 1947 has been led by people who openly call for their destruction?  But in the case of Israel in the 21 st century I find it extremely disingenuous to say the world looks the other way.  The UN has about 1/3 of all the resolutions it ever passed - passed against the tiniest state of all.  The entire situation is guided by the hand of God and YOU don't like the way He's taking care of business?  I hope He gets the memo.

[Yamato]

and then, on 16 March 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

America has no power to defy the will of God.  To take a stance contrary to God's word guarantees you will at the least be disappointed with your outcomes.  My problem is that I actually believe the scriptures, I don't just use them as a backdrop to discuss personal desires of how things SHOULD be.  I respect your stance and applaud your determination.  Ultimately I fully believe you will fail though.  You reject completely, God's chosen people.  As you get older you will see them continue to survive and maybe even continue to prosper for a while longer.  You can let that frustrate you and view it as an evil thing - OR - you can see it as a sign of divine intervention.  Either way there is nothing you, I or America can do to stop what will be.

Again, stop talking about me.   Getting personal is getting banned.   How many times do we have to learn that?  

Last reply about me to defend myself from your tendency to get personal and derail numerous posts:  I have nothing to "fail".   I have principle and know how to apply it consistently to everyone, foreign and domestic.  We've discussed this a hundred times.  Don't give me that amnesia again like you haven't heard it already.   I can read English in the Bible and see how you reject the message of Jesus Christ, so whatever passage or scripture you think allows you to forsake Christ doesn't jive with the "God" that I was taught about.   I don't reject "God's chosen people", who aren't Zionists.  Read the New Testament before trying to use "God" as the excuse to disagree with me about foreign policy.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 16 March 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

"Looking the other way" is what people DO, BJ.  But the Bible doesn't justify it.  And I don't try to justify the sins of Israelis against Palestinians.  I DO try to point out that this story has TWO sides - something uniformly denied by those who support Palestinians.  In your world the Palestinians would triumph and Israeli Zionism would be defeated but you (and every other Palestinian supporter on UM) NEVER answer the truth of what that actually means on the ground.  It isn't the victory of one political system over another.  It would mean the deaths and or subjugation of millions of Israelis.  Do you deny this?  When every war against the Jews since 1947 has been led by people who openly call for their destruction?  But in the case of Israel in the 21 st century I find it extremely disingenuous to say the world looks the other way.  The UN has about 1/3 of all the resolutions it ever passed - passed against the tiniest state of all.  The entire situation is guided by the hand of God and YOU don't like the way He's taking care of business?  I hope He gets the memo.

Do you deny millions of Palestinians are being subjugated or that far more Palestinians have been killed by Israel's state terrorism than Jews have been killed by Palestinian terrorists?

The reason I mentioned the prophets is the fact God sent them to recall the Jews back to the "convenant living". And why weren't the Jews living by the convenant? First off, there was mass idolatry and second Biblical Israel was plagued with social ills, court injustices, widespread corruption, mistreatment of the poor and unlanded classes, God was calling the Jews back to true moral and ethical principles a la "convenant living". You know what God basically warned the Jews, if you do not return to this "covenant living", I will scatter you amongst the nations.

And what plagues the State of Israel today is in fact, idolatry (atheism and Jewcentricism - Zionism) and social ills (an apartheid/terrorist state, where Zionists have many more exclusive rights than the non-Jews non-Zionists with fascist relish). Read passages such as found in Jeremiah 7:1-30, Ezekiel 11:15-21, and again Ezekiel 33:11-33. I especially like minor prophet Micah, a book that is a mere 7 chapters long but really says plenty about God and his thoughts about social ills and covenant breakers.

[and then]

B Jenkins, on 18 March 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

Do you deny millions of Palestinians are being subjugated or that far more Palestinians have been killed by Israel's state terrorism than Jews have been killed by Palestinian terrorists?

The reason I mentioned the prophets is the fact God sent them to recall the Jews back to the "convenant living". And why weren't the Jews living by the convenant? First off, there was mass idolatry and second Biblical Israel was plagued with social ills, court injustices, widespread corruption, mistreatment of the poor and unlanded classes, God was calling the Jews back to true moral and ethical principles a la "convenant living". You know what God basically warned the Jews, if you do not return to this "covenant living", I will scatter you amongst the nations.

And what plagues the State of Israel today is in fact, idolatry (atheism and Jewcentricism - Zionism) and social ills (an apartheid/terrorist state, where Zionists have many more exclusive rights than the non-Jews non-Zionists with fascist relish). Read passages such as found in Jeremiah 7:1-30, Ezekiel 11:15-21, and again Ezekiel 33:11-33. I especially like minor prophet Micah, a book that is a mere 7 chapters long but really says plenty about God and his thoughts about social ills and covenant breakers.

So in your opinion it is acceptable for the nation of Israel - those approximately 7 million people who live there today - to be dissolved?  If they are an illegitimate entity existing on that land that belongs to others then what is your solution?  The repetition of allegations against the people/government of Israel does not answer this question BJ.  I have acknowledge the "sins" of Israel.  I have acknowledged they will be punished for that sin.  All I continue to hear is that they are guilty.  I respect that opinion but I still do not understand why it is so difficult for someone to just look at and admit that the next logical step in rectifying this issue is for the Palestinians to achieve their goals and they have VERY clearly stated those goals thousands of times, publicly, over the last few decades.  So I ask, do you feel that it would be justified for the Palestinians, if they can, to remove Israelis from the disputed land and repossess it according to their desires - which includes killing the Jews?  If it seems a provocative question then I cannot help it.  They are the ones who use this language.  To kill, wipe them off the face of the earth, push them into the sea....  all these and many more statements have been made.  Is it justified?  This is the reality I'm talking about.  The REALITY of a true genocide, if the Palestinians or Muslims in general could have their desires concerning this nation.  It is a matter of record.  This behavior on the part of Muslims does not justify the theft of land or mistreatment of individual Palestinians.  But does Israel's actions justify the death of millions of them?
I don't want to argue.  I'm looking for common ground here.  Some starting point to a real dialogue.