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Top analyst from CIA compares apartheid


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#46    Orcseeker

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:10 PM

Israel is not only doing this. But in regards to nuclear/chemical/biological warfare, they want to be the only ones in the area to control such. Their heads are too big thanks to the USA at their back.

Israel has a far more advanced military and is able to cause a lot more collateral damage to the Palestinians than the Palestinians can do to the Israelites.

and then - You seem to follow the same wavelength that Israel is a poor little bullied country. As outlined at the start of my post, this isn't true. Imagine Israel as the little kid who can bully around everyone else just because of their big brother, except sometimes they also try to get back at their big brother (ie in using Mossad in operations in the US).


#47    and then

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:30 PM

View PostOrcseeker, on 18 March 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Israel is not only doing this. But in regards to nuclear/chemical/biological warfare, they want to be the only ones in the area to control such. Their heads are too big thanks to the USA at their back.

Israel has a far more advanced military and is able to cause a lot more collateral damage to the Palestinians than the Palestinians can do to the Israelites.

and then - You seem to follow the same wavelength that Israel is a poor little bullied country. As outlined at the start of my post, this isn't true. Imagine Israel as the little kid who can bully around everyone else just because of their big brother, except sometimes they also try to get back at their big brother (ie in using Mossad in operations in the US).
Actually I think I have a decent appreciation for just how much destruction Israel can cause if they need to.  They could easily defeat any one of their immediate neighbors I think.  They could, with more difficulty defeat several of their neighbors - and may be forced to some day.  But military victories will not solve the problem.  At some point they have to totally vanquish every country that hates them (an impossibility) or they must find a way to make peace.  They understand this and have done for decades.  But the Palestinians want all the land Orcseeker.  They say as much in Arabic to all who will listen.  So my last post sums up their problem.  If the world does not consider Israel to be a legitimate country and they keep pushing it to give more and more concessions to the Palestinians then at some point Israel will simply cease to exist.  Those people will burn the world down before they allow their children to be killed again and I don't blame them.  It's the ultimate in unfairness.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#48    GoSC

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:45 AM

View Postand then, on 18 March 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

So in your opinion it is acceptable for the nation of Israel - those approximately 7 million people who live there today - to be dissolved?  If they are an illegitimate entity existing on that land that belongs to others then what is your solution?  The repetition of allegations against the people/government of Israel does not answer this question BJ.  I have acknowledge the "sins" of Israel.  I have acknowledged they will be punished for that sin.  All I continue to hear is that they are guilty.  I respect that opinion but I still do not understand why it is so difficult for someone to just look at and admit that the next logical step in rectifying this issue is for the Palestinians to achieve their goals and they have VERY clearly stated those goals thousands of times, publicly, over the last few decades.  So I ask, do you feel that it would be justified for the Palestinians, if they can, to remove Israelis from the disputed land and repossess it according to their desires - which includes killing the Jews?  If it seems a provocative question then I cannot help it.  They are the ones who use this language.  To kill, wipe them off the face of the earth, push them into the sea....  all these and many more statements have been made.  Is it justified?  This is the reality I'm talking about.  The REALITY of a true genocide, if the Palestinians or Muslims in general could have their desires concerning this nation.  It is a matter of record.  This behavior on the part of Muslims does not justify the theft of land or mistreatment of individual Palestinians.  But does Israel's actions justify the death of millions of them?
I don't want to argue.  I'm looking for common ground here.  Some starting point to a real dialogue.

First off cut out the Islamophobic rhetoric, here is a delightful thought provoking article tackling these very challenges Israelis and Palestinians face:

Quote

Israel and Palestine: The Two-State Non Solution

By Rachel Sazanowicz

I had the privilege of traveling throughout the Israeli-Occupied Territory of the West Bank in the summer of 2011. My visit preceded Fatah’s Palestinian bid for statehood presented to the United Nations on September 23, 2011, and it was a major topic of discussion in the community.[i] Conversations revealed many Palestinians’ clear and understandable lack of faith in the international community’s ability to foster the realization of a Palestinian state. What was surprising however, was not the general attitude that a separate Palestinian state was improbable, but that it is actually not preferable. Many Palestinians that I spoke with expressed the opinion that a “one-state solution”, where Palestinians and Israelis live together as equals in a single unified country, is the only place where future generations of Israelis and Palestinians will know true peace.[ii]

After just a short visit to the West Bank it became evident that separation of these two peoples on this tiny land is neither practical nor possible. The current demographic of the West Bank includes three distinct populations. First, there are the refugees that fled from their homes in what is now Israel to the West Bank during and immediately after the 1948 war, many of whom still reside in refugee camps and their descendents. Next, are the original inhabitants of the land who did not flee from their homes following the 1967 war when Israel invaded and confiscated the West Bank (including East Jerusalem), the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, and the Golan Heights and their descendents. Finally, parts of the West Bank are colonized by Israeli settlers from all over the world who have settled in the West Bank with the financial support and encouragement of the Israeli government.

On the other side of the separation barrier, the population of Israel is comprised of both Israeli citizens and a sizable presence of Israeli Arabs. The Jewish Israeli population consists of the descendants of the original Jewish inhabitants of the land under Ottoman rule, the early Zionists and their descendants, and recent Jewish emigres to the country. The Israeli Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship are the Christian and Muslim Palestinians that refused to leave their homes leading to and during the 1948 war following the creation of Israel and their descendants. To understand the significance of these demographics to the current “two-state solution”, one must take into account the conflict’s early history. The Zionist movement called for the creation of the State of Israel as a national Jewish homeland with a Jewish majority,[iii] however the confiscation of additional territory during subsequent wars and colonization has meant that Israel has actually acquired more Christian and Muslim Palestinian inhabitants.[iv] Furthermore, the inability of Israel to expel all of the original inhabitants of what is now the State of Israel has ensured a sizable non-Jewish majority.[v] Additionally, due to the build up of settlements over the past 64 years, a large segment of the Israeli population is currently living in the West Bank often violently clashing with the Palestinian population.[vi] The lives of Palestinians and Israelis have become irreversibly intertwined. As the late Edward Said, a prominent Palestinian activist and former Professor of literature at Columbia University, stated over 10 years ago:

[T]he idea of a state for ‘ourselves’ simply flies in the face of the facts: short of ethnic cleansing or ‘mass transfer,’ as in 1948, there is no way for Israel to get rid of the Palestinians or for Palestinians to wish Israelis away. Neither side has a viable military option against the other, which, I am sorry to say, is why both opted for a peace that so patently tries to accomplish what war couldn’t.[vii]

Ten years later, the inherently unworkable plan Said warned against is still the only “solution” on the table.

Curiously, the so-called Separation Barrier has not done much to separate these two peoples either; the route of the barrier does not follow the internationally recognized legal border of Israel (called the Green Line), but instead 85 percent of the barrier extends into the West Bank, swallowing up more and more Palestinian land.[viii] There are over 518,974 Israeli settlers[ix] living in more than 200 settlements in the West Bank.[x] Since Israelis live on either side of the wall, the stated goal of protecting Israelis from Palestinians is questionable. The Separation Barrier does indeed serve its most obvious purpose: when the Barrier is completed, another 9.5 percent of the West Bank will have been “separated” from its Palestinian owners and annexed into the State of Israel.[xi]

The settlements present the most obvious obstacle to the two-state solution. They are de facto Israeli cities made up of exclusively Jewish populations scattered strategically throughout the West Bank and East Jerusalem. These settlements swallow up 42.8 percent of the land of the West Bank, and in many cases are placed strategically by the Israeli government in order to separate Palestinian’s from each other and from their own land.[xii] The placement of these settlements created what some observers label “Palestinian Bantustans” drawing an analogy to the non-viable “homelands” reserved for the black majority in Apartheid South Africa.[xiii] Indeed, security fences cordon off the Israeli settlements[xiv] and separate roads are built or taken from the Palestinians for use by settlers only.[xv] Checkpoints and/or physical barriers block roads. This has the cumulative effect of not only isolating Palestinian villages from the settlements, but also from other Palestinian villages. These isolated villages of the West Bank are no more legitimate or state-like than the Bantustans were in South Africa. The use of checkpoints and road barriers restrict Palestinian’s freedom of movement while making it possible for the Israeli military to institute curfews and lay siege to Palestinian villages quickly and easily. By strategically routing the Separation Barrier and building the settlements on what was someday meant to become a Palestinian state, Israel has redrawn the map of the West Bank, and ensured that no contiguous, viable Palestinian territory exists for a future state to be built on.

Another glaring inconsistency with the two-state plan is that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are not contiguous territories but are separated by the State of Israel. While contiguity is not one of the four requirements set forth for statehood by the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States, the fact that travel is not permitted between the two territories by the State of Israel is a major problem.[xvi] After the capture of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip during the war of 1967, the Israeli Military declared the territories to be “closed military areas” and free passage between them was forbidden.[xvii] The severity of the restrictions on freedom of movement between the three areas has varied over the years but in 1991, Israel revoked all general entry and exit permits and instituted a policy that required special permits for travel between East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[xviii] In practice this means than anyone holding a Palestinian territory ID card (including American citizens with current American passports) are not allowed entry into Israel without a special permit.[xix] This makes it almost impossible for Palestinians living in the West Bank to travel to the Gaza Strip. Currently, Palestinians residing in Israel and holding an Israeli passport along with other foreign passport holders are generally allowed entry into the West Bank and East Jerusalem. This however, is not the case with the Gaza Strip, which is effectively under siege. Since the application for statehood was a unilateral move by the Palestinians that is not supported by Israel, there is every indication that the repressive permit system will remain in place regardless of whether the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are accepted by the United Nations as a unified state under one name. While contiguity of territory may not be a per se requirement of statehood, it is hard to imagine a state where, in order to travel within that state, one’s citizens are at the mercy of a foreign government’s permit system.

Is this the makings of a state? The answer is an unequivocal no. The Palestinian quest for justice is a quest for freedom – not a quest for de jure state in law but not in practice. Life for Palestinians living under Israeli occupation is marked by the constant threat of arbitrary arrest and detention, torture, extra-judicial killings, house demolitions, confiscation of land, damage and/or destruction of mosques, homes, olive trees, and other property, and physical assault and death.[xx] As the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, known as B’Tselem, states on their website:

Israel created in the Occupied Territories a regime of separation and discrimination, with two separate systems of law in the same territory. One system, for the settlers, de facto annexes the settlements to Israel and grants settlers the rights of citizens of a democratic state. The other is a system of military law that systematically deprives Palestinian of their rights and denies them the ability to have any real effect on shaping the policy regarding the land space in which they live and with respect to their rights. These separate systems reinforce a regime in which rights depend on the national identity of the individual.[xxi]

ARTICLE CONT. -> http://intlawsociety...e-non-solution/

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

#49    and then

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:29 PM

If an earnest statement of my opinion on this matter is considered by you to be rhetoric to be dismissed out of hand then the discussion is over.  The Jews WILL possess the land.  The Palestinians COULD have peace but they refuse to.  And this situation WILL lead to a great war that eventually encompasses the whole world.  Sounds like humans being humans to me.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#50    GoSC

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:48 PM

View Postand then, on 19 March 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

If an earnest statement of my opinion on this matter is considered by you to be rhetoric to be dismissed out of hand then the discussion is over.  The Jews WILL possess the land.  The Palestinians COULD have peace but they refuse to.  And this situation WILL lead to a great war that eventually encompasses the whole world.  Sounds like humans being humans to me.

No, the Palestinians never refused peace, they KNOW better than to bend to any Israeli provisions for peace (I've posted this before):

MYTH: The Palestinians have rejected many "Generous" Peace offers.

This is a commonly used myth, in which the Palestinians are portrayed as a violent people, with no desire for peace. Why wouldn't the Palestinians want peace? They are under a brutal occupation, their homes are destroyed, they have no economy, and they are subject to continuous conflict. The Palestinians have suffered much more than the Israelis in this decades long conflict, and they have much more to gain from peace.

Supporters of Israel often point to the Palestinian rejection of the 2000 Camp David peace conference as a validation of this myth. The Israeli offer for peace is often portrayed as generous, and that Palestinians rejected it because they do not want peace. This is entirely false. The peace offer was far from generous. It would not constitute a viable Palestinian state. These are some issues with the so called "generous" offer.


Israel would have full sovereignty of Jerusalem

Israel would maintain fortified settlements, and Israeli only roads in the occupied west bank


Palestinians would have no control of their airspace.

Palestinians would have control of only 73% of the occupied west bank


Israel would maintain control of all borders

The northern and southern parts of the west bank would be separated, and the road connection could be closed by Israel at its own discretion

Palestine would have limited control of water resources

Israel would place early warning systems within Palestinian territory

Israel reserved the right to conduct military operations within the Palestinian state

The Palestinian state would be entirely demilitarized

Palestinian refugees would have no right of return


As is evident, this offer was far from "generous". It would simply constitute a situation that is very similar to what is happening now, except it would be Internationally be recognized as a state. Palestinians would have to entirely relinquish Jerusalem as their capital. They would have no way of defending themselves from Israeli incursions, no control over their borders, airspace, or water. This, in no way constitutes a sovereign, viable, free, Palestinian state.

The myth that Palestinians reject peace is categorically false. Palestinians desire peace, however, they will not give up their rights, and territories, which are confirmed under International law. If anything, Israel has no desire for peace.


http://www.peaceandp...com/nopeacemyth

STATISTICS (according to United Nations Relief And Works Agency For Palestine Refugees In The Near East)

Field of operations - Official camps - Registered refugees - Total registered persons

Jordan - 10 - 2,034,641 - 2,110,114

Lebanon - 15 - 441,543 - 474,053

Syria - 9 - 499,189 - 528,711

West Bank - 19 - 741,409 - 895,703

Gaza Strip - 8 - 1,203,135 - 1,263,312

Agency Total - 61 - 4,919,917 - 5,271,893


http://www.unrwa.org...late.php?id=253

Over 1 million Palestinian refugees between Lebanon and Syria alone, combined with over 2 million refugees in Jordan, and another 2 million refugees between Gaza Strip and the West Bank alone. Israel denies them the right of return. These people had made their homes in Palestine for centuries. They LOST everything!

Edited by B Jenkins, 19 March 2013 - 06:31 PM.

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.




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