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Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?


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#1    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 06:28 PM

The discussion concerning the problem of evil in Christianity had me wondering if anyone thinks that atheism has a similar set of long-standing 'debates' or 'problems' that arise from its propositions?  I'm not restricting that question to just ideas that are similar to the problem of evil, I'm just using 'the problem of evil' as an example of a potential contradiction or problem internal to Christianity's propositions that has been argued and debated about for centuries now.  I'm guessing there aren't really any as the only main tenet of atheism is 'there is no god', but I was wondering if anyone thought there were some.  

As an atheist it's tempting to bring up in discussions about the problem of evil, what 'grace' means, what parts of the Bible should be taken figuratively, etc, that all of these debates evaporate if God does not exist, and I'm not sure that it is then replaced by similar thorny problems that are somewhat inherent in atheism.

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#2    White Crane Feather

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:22 PM

The only thing I see contradictory in some theists' atheism is the belief in a non-belief. To me it seems quit silly unless the atheists happens to know the truth behind fundamental reality.

The other tendency that I see is a strong tendency to construct straw men, and use adhominimns. If an atheist is going to claim the logical position, he/she better make sure their arguments are logically sound.

Edited by Seeker79, 30 January 2013 - 07:23 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#3    Frank Merton

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:27 PM

There are perhaps two kinds of atheists, those who believe in non-belief in God and those who just don't believe in Him.


#4    manbearpigg

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:20 PM

I like where this post is heading since Atheist rarely get the blunt side of the logic game but they do too have unanswerable questions.

1) St. Thomas Aquinas: Who is the first mover (first action) that caused the chain of reactions we call reality today?
2) What proof does Atheism have against the Supernatural? (supernatural meaning all things unidentified as nature)
3) The basic principles of Atheism is in fact more faith based than a lot of people care to admit. Yes we can measure entropy and estimate a loose time scale of our known universe after the "big bang" but what of before? Sadly enough we can never have actual empirical proof (unless we invent time travel!)

Agnostic: 1 Atheists: 0

BAM


#5    manbearpigg

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:22 PM

reading back i feel all 3 of my points can be summed into one...

please disregard comments 2 and 3. Thanks


#6    Hasina

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:42 PM

Funny. Tenant of Atheism: 'there is no god'
Agnosticism: 'there is no proof'

Proof is our god!

For me, good and evil are human concepts, in 'reality' there's only 'actions' and 'reactions' and we place morals and ethics on these.

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#7    manbearpigg

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:44 PM

View PostHasina, on 30 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Funny. Tenant of Atheism: 'there is no god'
Agnosticism: 'there is no proof'

Proof is our god!

For me, good and evil are human concepts, in 'reality' there's only 'actions' and 'reactions' and we place morals and ethics on these.

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#8    RockabyeBillie

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:32 PM

Atheists don't have all the answers. They just believe God isn't the answer.

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#9    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:46 PM

View PostRockabyeBillie, on 30 January 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Atheists don't have all the answers. They just believe God isn't the answer.

Definitely not the psycho abrahamic god.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#10    SpiritWriter

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:56 PM

The only contridiction is an internal one.. sometimes an athiest may break down and feel the urge to pray.. or something may happen that is miraculous, because of thier belief system they may need to ignore it and pretend it didnt happen. When listening to others accounts of god they wont be able to listen unbiasedly because god cannot exist for them..

In its definition there is no contridiction.. but neither would there be in the statement "there is a god."

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#11    Hasina

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:02 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 30 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

The only contridiction is an internal one.. sometimes an athiest may break down and feel the urge to pray.. or something may happen that is miraculous, because of thier belief system they may need to ignore it and pretend it didnt happen. When listening to others accounts of god they wont be able to listen unbiasedly because god cannot exist for them..

In its definition there is no contridiction.. but neither would there be in the statement "there is a god."
See, that's actually not why I became agnostic, feeling an internal contradiction. It was more external, I see and read people, thiests and atheists arguing back and forth and it comes down to 'no YOU prove it. No, YOU prove it'. I basically threw up my hands and thought 'who cares?!' We can't prove it, it takes faith either way to believe in something or to believe something isn't there.

I just don't care. There's perceived evil and good in the world, and a god(s) or no god hasn't changed it. Just be happy and make others happy.

Edited by Hasina, 30 January 2013 - 11:04 PM.

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#12    SpiritWriter

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:13 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 30 January 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

The only thing I see contradictory in some theists' atheism is the belief in a non-belief. To me it seems quit silly unless the atheists happens to know the truth behind fundamental reality.

The other tendency that I see is a strong tendency to construct straw men, and use adhominimns. If an atheist is going to claim the logical position, he/she better make sure their arguments are logically sound.

Logically sound arguements are of the beholder. How can we convince anyone of anything? Better to be convinced ourselves.. or maybe that's what you meant...

In my opinion there is something inside of us that is either turned on or off in perceiving the spiritual. We all have it but in some it is dormant. An event can occur which opens it, or flips the switch so to speak, or it can slowly be opening over time. Those who are really "into" athiesm are probably closer than they think... true athiest in my opinion never even think about god...

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#13    SpiritWriter

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostHasina, on 30 January 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:


See, that's actually not why I became agnostic, feeling an internal contradiction. It was more external, I see and read people, thiests and atheists arguing back and forth and it comes down to 'no YOU prove it. No, YOU prove it'. I basically threw up my hands and thought 'who cares?!' We can't prove it, it takes faith either way to believe in something or to believe something isn't there.

I just don't care. There's perceived evil and good in the world, and a god(s) or no god hasn't changed it. Just be happy and make others happy.

Agnostic is different from athiest though.. you acknowledge the contradiction.. athiest and thiest make no contradiction about the matter according to what they claim, it is... or it isn't... I am not speaking of religion, just the simple belief or non belief in god...

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#14    Hasina

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:29 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 30 January 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:



Agnostic is different from athiest though.. you acknowledge the contradiction.. athiest and thiest make no contradiction about the matter according to what they claim, it is... or it isn't... I am not speaking of religion, just the simple belief or non belief in god...
True, but when I first joined the site, I'll admit and it can even be read in my earlier posts, I was a pretty hardcore atheist, lol.

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#15    SpiritWriter

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:33 PM

View PostHasina, on 30 January 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:


True, but when I first joined the site, I'll admit and it can even be read in my earlier posts, I was a pretty hardcore atheist, lol.

Yeah... we all go through changes.. I used to not really care.. I used to be semi hard core christian.. then i started hating christianity (briefly) and now im just more spiritual but still believe in god...

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung




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